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Spielman Purge- He Has to GO

finfansince72 said:
The Ricky trade was all Wannestadt, I agree there. The other moves that resulted in a 4-12 disaster had a lot to do with Speilman. You really think Wannestadt wanted Feeley that bad? He didnt want to play the guy, he was with Fiedler all the way. The panic moves were also for Speilman's benefit, he knew that if the Phins failed Wannestadt would be gone and his GM spot would be short-lived. He made a lot of those moves last offseason theres no doubt about it. I wish the guy the best--elsewhere. I really dont think anyone is going to hire him as a GM, I think youre wrong about that.

Then there are more fools out there than we think,,Spielman's a keeper..we needed a bad year to right the ship..Speilman did the right things last year and the future will be brighter for it, and I'm not just talking picking up Saban.
 
Steve S said:
Next best thing they can do after dumping Tricky Ricky is to get rid of this awful psuedo-GM who had the worst offseason in 2004 since Terry Bradway's of 3 years ago.

Clean out:

D Mac- the underwhelming LT who Spielman was going to pay a huge bonus to before he took a physical.

Reggie Howard- pay cut or he's gone. Period. Guy is not a starting caliber or nickel DB. Slow, small with poor instincts. His huge contract is one of the reasons we had to trade Surtain. Carolina laughed at the contract we gave to a below average corner.

He structures a deal for Cracky Williams that is so front loaded that it gives Miami no protection in case the RB got hurt or quit after the first year. Cost Miami one first round pick. Bad friggin' move and not hindsight.

Throw in the Feeley and Gordon deals, getting less than market value for Ogunleye, trading a 4th for Carey when he didn't have to and the piss poor O-line and offense he put together with Wanny plus the myriad of poor drafts he and Dave presided over and this guy should be bounced on his *** asap.

Get 'er done!

D Mac didn't play as well as he can last year...as a matter of fact, it was questionable as to whether he would play at all until midseason or better. When an OL or DL has a ankle injury, because of the way the joint is used, it sets them back much longer than most other positions...Big Mac will be better this year and he played much better as the year went on last year. Also, it was the press announcement that was scheduled before the results of the physical came back, not the actual signing of the contract. When the physical came back with an issue, that was negotiated and then he signed...


Reggie Howard was a starter for the Panthers the year they went to the super bowl. True enough, they had an awesome DL that made the LBs and CBs probably look a little better than they actually were, but when he came here, Wanny (not Speilman) played him out of position...he was NOT a nickel back where Wanny played him. He was signed (last year) because Madison had not restructured and there was a thought that they might not reach an agreement with him, so Howard was signed as insurance. BTW, Howard will fit very nicely in Saban's backfield scheme. There will be less man-to-man coverage and more zone area coverages that play into his strengths. Now that Poole is out, we would have been forced to overpay again for a player or have to sign a lesser talent to compensate for Surtain and Poole being gone...Turns out it wasn't such a bad move afterall. Also, I live in Charlotte and there was no laughing when he signed with Miami...They were still hoping to work out a deal to keep him at the time.

The deal with Cracky was made prior to him having the GM power. It was negotiated by Wiedemeyer (sp)...NOT Speilman....so, wrong on that one.

Feeley may turn out to be a bust, but we really don't know that yet...Wanny is person who is solely responsible for AJ not being put in a position to be successful because first he can't get his O coaches to work together and then he promotes a guy that was at best, a mediocre position coach to OC. Then when Cracky pulled his little smokey joe routine and quit, the O coaches and Wanny NEVER adjusted the offense to compensate for not having RW in there...That is and was not Speilman's responsibility.

Gordon, let's see...RW was in Timbuctoo getting high. Minor was hurt and not playing well during camp even when he wasn't hurt. They start Morris and he gets hurt...Something had to be done to get a back that could at least get us thru until Morris and Minor returned. Well he gets Gordon, who was a very capable backup to Marshall Faulk, and he gets hurt because we had to put him into a poor offensive scheme with little or no OL support. That is Speilmans fault ??? I think not...

As far as the drafts that he and Wanny worked on, where is the dividing line between Spielman's error and Wanny's error ?? It was widely reported that Spielman want Boldin when Moore was drafted ?? Was that Wanny or Spielman ?? When the personnel guy works for the coach, he has to structure his gathering of talent to the coaches demands...How can that be ALL Spielman's fault ??

This guy runs a very good scouting department. He has had to make some moves that were really out of his control. Realistically, how many injuries to one position can you have and still blame the personnel guy ?? Whether or not he stays will be whether Saban wants to hand pick his "Scott Pioli" or not, not really whether Speilman is a good or poor talent evaluator/GM...
 
finfansince72 said:
The Ricky trade was all Wannestadt, I agree there. The other moves that resulted in a 4-12 disaster had a lot to do with Speilman. You really think Wannestadt wanted Feeley that bad? He didnt want to play the guy, he was with Fiedler all the way. The panic moves were also for Speilman's benefit, he knew that if the Phins failed Wannestadt would be gone and his GM spot would be short-lived. He made a lot of those moves last offseason theres no doubt about it. I wish the guy the best--elsewhere. I really dont think anyone is going to hire him as a GM, I think youre wrong about that.

I agree with you on Feeley and I do realize that a second rounder was quite a long reach to get him. A bad move. There is a reason why I left out GM as one of the titles he would be hired under. I believe he will succeed the most as a personnel director or scout to a GM who is also the coach, ala Belichick/Pioli.

It is true that the panic moves were made not only for Wannstedt's job security but for Speilman himself which just furthers my point that the moves made last year were done out of desperation and panic signings like those rarely ever succeed. If a Front Office (as a whole) ever has to resort to making panic moves like that, they usually end up being the precursor to failure. This is also saying that all of Speilmans moves were bad last year, they weren't.
 
Also, let me add this: Speilman was a rookie GM and, just as all rookies are prone to do, he made some rookie mistakes. I firmly believe that smart, hard working people - like Speilman, learn from their mistakes and rushes to judgement. Basically just more reason why I believe Speilman will succeed somewhere in the NFL unlike the man who's shadow he was under, Wannstedt (who NEVER learned from his mistakes).
 
FiN.in.RI said:
I agree with you on Feeley and I do realize that a second rounder was quite a long reach to get him. A bad move. There is a reason why I left out GM as one of the titles he would be hired under. I believe he will succeed the most as a personnel director or scout to a GM who is also the coach, ala Belichick/Pioli.

It is true that the panic moves were made not only for Wannstedt's job security but for Speilman himself which just furthers my point that the moves made last year were done out of desperation and panic signings like those rarely ever succeed. If a Front Office (as a whole) ever has to resort to making panic moves like that, they usually end up being the precursor to failure. This is also saying that all of Speilmans moves were bad last year, they weren't.

Let's assume that they were panic moves, what exactly was he supposed to do? Did he have a choice once we started losing players right and left? Sure it would have been better for the franchise to just let the ship sink but, would you have done that? His job was on the line. The franchises' potential season earnings were on the line. And I'm sure Wayne was on line three.

He did what he could and still did it with an eye to the future by not bringing in stop-gap used up veteran talent which would have cost him the same price.

I just don't think there was anything else he could have done.
 
inFINSible said:
Let's assume that they were panic moves, what exactly was he supposed to do? Did he have a choice once we started losing players right and left? Sure it would have been better for the franchise to just let the ship sink but, would you have done that? His job was on the line. The franchises' potential season earnings were on the line. And I'm sure Wayne was on line three.

He did what he could and still did it with an eye to the future by not bringing in stop-gap used up veteran talent which would have cost him the same price.


No I wouldn't have done that. I would have done what Speilman did. Maybe not with the same players or actions, but you understand, it would have been rushed and, for lack of a better term, panic stricken. The point I am trying to make is that Speilman was put in a piteous position in which there was no option for him but to save a sinking ship that was sunk before it left the dock back in '99.

He is being made the scapregoat for Jimmy Johnson and Dave Wanndstedt, the main (only) decision makers of the past 6 or whatever years, IMO.
 
FiN.in.RI said:
No I wouldn't have done that. I would have done what Speilman did. Maybe not with the same players or actions, but you understand, it would have been rushed and, for lack of a better term, panic stricken. The point I am trying to make is that Speilman was put in a piteous position in which there was no option for him but to save a sinking ship that was sunk before it left the dock back in '99.

He is being made the scapregoat for Jimmy Johnson and Dave Wanndstedt, the main (only) decision makers of the past 6 or whatever years, IMO.
We completely agree. :)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by NathanHunt

It's not fantasy football. Spielman was committed to getting the BEST AVAILABLE lineman for the Phinz. He made all the right offers, the players simply liked the other organizations better. Maybe that give you a little insight into what "outsiders" saw within the Phinz organization. And, if you understand that statement, you might have a better appreciation of exactly WHAT Spielman was up against with Wanny as the coach.


I disagree here – he didn’t make all the right offers or the line wouldn’t have been so bad. I also disagree BIG time that he was not acting as the GM – he did not have final say over personnel decisions – Wanny did – BUT he was in charge of putting everything in front of Wanny to pull the trigger. Not a normal GM role BUT he was no water boy!

As for Woody and Tait – I agree they were overpaid BUT why not a trade for someone else? Why not a lower rd draft pick or undrafted FA? Heck look at NE’s Oline and where they came from. I put out a thread awhile back showing where they were drafted or undrafted. Pretty impressive – shows if you are doing your homework the talent is out there and it certainly AINâ€ÂT GREG JERMAN!!
Quote:

Originally Posted by NathanHunt

In a perfect world, did he overpay... not really. In a perfect world, did he get snookered by Minnesota? Possibly. BUT, what if he had not traded the 4th? Minnesota and New England both had Carey on their boards. What happens if he doesn't trade and Carey gets drafted by someone else?

Oh, that's right, you would have drafted Wilfork. You would have drafted into a position that, at the time, had 2 healthy starters and solid backup rotations behind them? You foresaw the injury meltdown about to occur at DT? Meanwhile, you'll leave a glaring HOLE in your OLine with no YOUNG star to groom?




Spielman was putting out as many fires as he could with the limited resources available to him. It was his FIRST year as GM, not 5th.



Actually he did overpay and the Vikes actually had a joke after the draft about how they bluffed a 4th out of the Phins. 2nd Miami did NOT have 2 healthy starters at DT last year. TBo’s back has been hurting for awhile. He was NOT 100% heathly – you never are after you hurt your back like he did. He was getting up there in age and smart GM’s plan for the future. I agree going in they had to target OL. We all wanted it – BUT you sit tight and see what happens – you don’t PANIC! He did and it cost them a 4th – you push off the value of a 4th. Let’s see how Daniels does and then you tell me if a 4th is no big deal. My point is he didn’t need to panic because IMO Carey is still sitting there at our pick and worse case Wolfork is there which would have turned out to be a GREAT pick. You couldn’t lose staying put!
AND we will continue to disagree on his role – IMO it was his 5th year not his 1st in that type of role – ONE difference he had final say the last year BUT make no mistake Wanny and Rick were a package deal. Who do you think brought RS on board anyways? He did the same thing each year IMO – it was all for show that he now had final say instead of Wanny – that was BS IMO for the public to answer why there no changes made.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NathanHunt



YES, let's list ALL of the LB's he's picked as GM in his previous ZERO years as GM. Done yet? It is ZERO. Again, 1 year... MANY HOLES... he's only 1 man catching up on YEARS and YEARS of BAD drafts. He fielded the most productive Dolphin draft in nearly 10 years. Not bad for his FIRST year's draft.

Could have done better, you say? I don't recall other GMs beating our door down to ask for the job. He did a job NO ONE wanted to do in a time NO ONE wanted to be associated with
Miami and did an excellent job with the resources he had.

I disagree – he was their personnel guy for 5 years not 1 – he lacked final say in the previous 4 BUT he was in charge of scouting and pro player direction. Shall we look at this record setting draft?

Carey – a lot of hope BUT didn’t even start on the worst line in the entire NFL
Poole – good pick – possibly great value

Bua – not a LB – good ST – safety? Has no real position so you can’t really call it a good pick? 5th rd for a full time ST – wouldn’t write home about that. Now if we drafted Zach Thomas in say the 5th rd I’d say great pick.

Hadnot – the jury is still out on him – I hope he does well – this offseason will tell.

Pape – in NFL Europe – who knows? May not even make the team

Pope – good value – may be too small for Saban but good pick at 7th rd

Some good picks but game changing players – NO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NathanHunt

Howard is 2 years removed from being a starter on the NFC Championship team. He was behind Surtain and Madison on the depth chart.... when did you expect him to be on the field? And, we acquired him at a decent price in a year in which CBs were breaking the bank. Great pickup.



I’m not bashing Howard here – I just disagree as to how good he is. How come Carolina did not bother to keep him IF he was so good? If as you say the price for DB’s was breaking the bank – then to keep a starter for the money he got would be very cheap. I wonder why???

Quote:

Originally Posted by NathanHunt

Actually, considering Jay did not have Ricky for most of his victories... and watching last year's shame.... I'd say Jay did a pretty darn good job with LITTLE help from the skill positions. He had a young McMichael and Chambers, Gadsden and L. Smith. I thank Jay for the victories, he did a lot with little to work with.

Jay did a lot with little to work with? Did you ever watch him throw a sideout pattern? How about this thought – Jay’s lack of ability to throw the ball hindered the offenses ability to call or run many plays? There was no deep threat scare with Jay because he couldn’t throw the long ball. Heck he couldn’t throw the short pass. They worked around it but you can’t go far without big score capability. We had none –of course with Jay throwing the other team had a lot!
 
FiN.in.RI said:
No I wouldn't have done that. I would have done what Speilman did. Maybe not with the same players or actions, but you understand, it would have been rushed and, for lack of a better term, panic stricken. The point I am trying to make is that Speilman was put in a piteous position in which there was no option for him but to save a sinking ship that was sunk before it left the dock back in '99.

You're passing the buck and excusing incompetence, that's all.

Spielman was put in a bad position that he made a lot worse last year. He came out on the short end of every trade and FA move, with the possible exception of St Clair who he didn't pay that much. That's incompetence. Good GM's don't panic like he did on draft day or with the Gordon trade. I'd like to hear some of you clowns and apologists tell me how an injured all preaseason 3rd string back is worth a 3rd rounder. I guarantee there's an idiot in here who will try.

He is being made the scapregoat for Jimmy Johnson and Dave Wanndstedt, the main (only) decision makers of the past 6 or whatever years, IMO.

How is JJ responsible for Spielman and Wanny's mess??? That's just ridiculous. At least JJ drafted consistently well outside of the 99 draft. How many drafted players since 2000-2004 matter???? Chambers and McMike. That's about it right now and its pitiful.

JJ could work a draft room, Spielman doesn't have clue one.
 
FiN.in.RI said:
Sorry, but I have to take issue with that statement for two reasons:

1. That trade was a Wannstedt trade from start to finish.. Speilman had his say but Wanny's fingerprints were all over it.

2. For every year during Wanny's tenure ithere was always a "Win it All Now" mentality. After every year of 10-6, 11-5 it was always "We're just one or two players away" It was never "build for the future", it was lets emulate the Baltimore Ravens.

I think Speilman gets a bum rap because of Wanny.
Yeah, some of the moves he made last year were questionable and maybe stupid BUT the moves were made out of DESPERATION.

Competent GM's don't deal out of desperation. Rick did it consistently last year. He had no idea what he was doing and you could argue his decision were worse than Wanny's.

I agree that RS grew up in the Wanny ball philosophy but his trade for Feeley, against Wanny's wishes proved he was his own man.

He spent the rest of the offseason and draft proving he's no better than Wannstedt.
 
Think the Bears fans think highly of Spielman? The Wanny-RS team crushed that franchise. They set them back years and they have done the same here in Miami. You Spielman supporters make me laugh - it's the 5 year old speech - it's okay to lose as long as you try hard.

:ears:
 
Let me put it this way.He is an expensive scout.A perfect example of the Peter principle.
 
You're passing the buck and excusing incompetence, that's all

The buck stops at Dave Wannstedt *and* Jimmy Johnson for paving the way for his buddy to get grandfathered in as the head coach/general manager. Period. End of story.

I refuse to get in a pissing match with someone like you.

I have said my piece and I stand by it. Kiss the ring, i'm out.
 
MDFINFAN said:
:shakeno: WE DIDN"T need a starting DT at the time of the draft.

This is ridiculous. We had a beat up Bowens, an close to 30 year old Larry Chester and not much else at DT at the time of the draft and we passed up a better player than Carey (Wilfork) and GAVE up a 4th rounder. You don't know what you're talking about, no wonder you support Spielman.

You take the best player at a need position and DT WAS a need position. Just because O-line was a bigger need doesn't mean you pass up a better player and give away draft picks to sell out for a player you think you have to have. That's bad planning and poor strategy on Spielman's part.

He should have been fired after the draft.

We had purged our whole OL, we needed OLmen, that's why Spielman did what he did. Think about what Speilman was trying to do. If he had gotten his way, our OL last year would have been (LT)McIntosh, (LG) James, (C) McKinney, (RG)Woody, and (RT) Tait. That's what Speilman was trying to do..and actually the bad play of Wade force him into signing McIntosh. Carey would probably have not been on the team. Most likely he would have picked up Wilford..but Woody and Tait were overpaid somewhere else and Speilman had to go to plan


Revisionist history. Who told Spielman to sign those bad lineman??? Why did he have to waste the money he spent on Reggie friggin' Howard? Did we really need ANOTHER expensive corner over an O-lineman? Woody and Tait were only overpaid in your eyes because Miami didn't sign them.

B. NO ONE knows for sure what happen with the buff for Carey, but Spielman ensured he got a OLman, who many on this board throught was a great pick at the time. Speilman did use his resource to get a extra 3rd and Booker for Ogunleye, so that made up on the 4th...and then Ricky...so we spent the extra 3rd, reasonable move.

What??? We got the 3rd from Chicago in this draft not last year's. That didn't help us at the time. You're obviously willing to excuse every bad move your GM made.

I think by now everyone knew that Surtain wasn't going to be resigned by the end of TC last year. Saban did the same thing I think Speilman was going to do this year, trade Surtain for draft picks..so Saban is only following what Spielman was doing. Now let's reveiw.

Again, pure crap. Saban was cleaning up an unnecessary mess that Spielman and Wannstedt made. Surtain didn't have to go. He was arguably the 2nd best player on that defense. A smarter GM would have found a way to keep both Sam and Pat. Reggie Howsmall would have never been signed by a good GM.

Spielman 1st year:'
Change OL...younger and stronger..struggle first 3/4 of year. Showed progress toward the end.
OL additions: D. McIntosh, J. St. Clair, V. Carey, R. Hadnot. Draftees

Signed Howard and drafted Poole..signs that Surtain wasn't going to be resigned.

Bent over and gave up his 4th rounder. Had to trade out of the third round of 04 draft passing over talent on the offensive side, got a nice player in Poole but should have had more picks.

Brought in L. Gordon, a good back from St. Louis.
Overpaid for a 3rd string runner who isn't special. Otherwise St Louis never drafts S. Jackson.

Brought in Boston...who was looking great in TC before the injury.
Traded Ogun for Booker, (replacement for Boston), and a 3rd pick...make up for 4th given for Carey. traded to ST. L. for Gordon..all because of Ricky.

Use your head, please. His bad trades never made up for the draft picks he pissed away. You're being silly. Ogunleye's value was more than what RS got back.

Our young OL.. Wade\Mcintosh, James, Mckinney, Whitney, Carey..ended up as McIntosh, James, Mckinney, Hadnot, St. Clair...our best of last year.

Let's address that. He gave up a future 2nd for Wade Smith who now has one foot out the door. That's a horrible move whether it was Dave or Rick. Jeno James-overpaid, could be oK but nothing special at LG, Hadnot I like- good pick, McKinney and Whitley flat out suck dog balls so give me a break there. Overall he gets a D+ for his work on the O-line which is slightly better than his overall grade.
 
FiN.in.RI said:
The buck stops at Dave Wannstedt *and* Jimmy Johnson for paving the way for his buddy to get grandfathered in as the head coach/general manager. Period. End of story.

I refuse to get in a pissing match with someone like you.

I have said my piece and I stand by it. Kiss the ring, i'm out.

Still waiting to hear how this mess was JJ's fault. Your "end of story" is about as compelling an argument as apparently you can make.

Try harder next time. I'm sure the school system in Rhode Island is better than what you're letting on.

Wayne chose to hire Wanny and Spielman, nobody twisted his arm. They made their own messes. JJ left this team in much better shape than either one of those two did.
 
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