if you put Quinn at OLB, it's not to use him in space. at least not a lot. he's at his best chasing the QB. a good DC will figure out his strength and use him accordingly.
T.J. Yates' Pro Day
- Thread starter ckparrothead
- Start date
if you put Quinn at OLB, it's not to use him in space. at least not a lot. he's at his best chasing the QB. a good DC will figure out his strength and use him accordingly.
hoops
Tua time!
quinn can bend and dip as well as any pass rusher in this draft...i don't know how fluid he is in the hips though from a cod aspect or how comfortable he'd be in space...but as a pure pass rusher he'd put misi to shame...watching his pro day though he's looking more 4-3 end to me all the time
but don't sleep on this cat...may well be the best pass rusher to come out of this draft...dudes got some serious edge rush skills
if i was a 4-3 team looking for a pass rushing force at end i'd scoop robert quinn in a nanosecond...top 5 i'm not afraid...come on down big fella
but don't sleep on this cat...may well be the best pass rusher to come out of this draft...dudes got some serious edge rush skills
if i was a 4-3 team looking for a pass rushing force at end i'd scoop robert quinn in a nanosecond...top 5 i'm not afraid...come on down big fella
I thinking not along the lines of King retweeting it, but that it would get read by someone in a front office somewhere. By King retweeting that article, people new to Draft Winds probably looked back at the previous articles and are anticipating the forth coming ones. This might also include scouting departments in several NFL front offices.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
When it comes to the idea of a pass rusher at #15 I just find it difficult to screw with the current formula as it seems Mike Nolan is consistently a guy that likes to have one OLB be about an 80-85% rush guy and the other OLB be a half-n-half guy. Are guys like Aldon Smith and Robert Quinn really half-n-half guys? I don't think so. Nolan could switch the defense to where both guys rush but then that really stresses the defense elsewhere and it just might not be a good idea because honestly if you listen to guys like Greg Cosell who basically just locks himself up in the NFL Films vault and comes out once a year like a damn ground hog, the NFL is all about creatively finding ways to get pass rush with as few rushers as possible. If you have two OLBs in your 3-4 defense that are both full time rush guys, don't have a lot of versatility to their games, and so you're just rushing 5 men all the time...that can be a problem. And before you bring up the Pittsburgh duo keep in mind that both of those guys are about 60-65% rush guys, and I don't think you do that with a Robert Quinn or a Cam Wake.
So I just get paranoid about f-cking with the formula. There's a formula in place and it's working for us. Why f-ck with it? I can agree that adding some depth there would be pretty cool...but at #15? Not unless I'm planning on trading Cam Wake in for some really good compensation.
So I just get paranoid about f-cking with the formula. There's a formula in place and it's working for us. Why f-ck with it? I can agree that adding some depth there would be pretty cool...but at #15? Not unless I'm planning on trading Cam Wake in for some really good compensation.
As a 4-3 DE, I have Aldon Smith ahead of Quinn - assuming he returns to full health. If he doesn't, they're close enough that I give Quinn the edge.
I really agree with the general thought process hear. It seemed - though, and I don't have the stats to back this up - that we went to 4-down sets very often on passing situations (not only on 3rd down). With Odrick returning, I feel better about the idea of getting to the QB with Wake, Starks, Odrick, and Misi, but against a team like New England, where I feel we're in 4-down a lot (again, wish I had the stats to back this up), I can see that other edge rusher being worth a premium pick. The combination of those scenarios, spelling Wake, and having someone to groom behind Wake make it more enticing for me. But, at the end of the day, we NEED a QB. I'd only be happy with Quinn or Smith (I've almost posted two write ups on my man-crush for Smith) if it were just clear that they didn't like this QB crop - which doesn't seem the case.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Here's the problem with that. There aren't that high a percentage of downs when you need to put four down and just rush the hell out of a passer to where you're not all that concerned about other things. If I had to estimate I'd say maybe 20-30% of the time. If you're getting a Robert Quinn at #15, salivating over the idea of those two rushing the passer together, keep that in mind, we're talking like 20-30% of the time when they'd be the deadly pair.
The rest of the time (70-80%) you have to worry about what WEAKNESSES you're creating, when you put the two on the field together. If you're going four-down fronts on those downs with Wake and Quinn as your bookends, I think you're creating a hell of a weakness to the run game. You'd better be damn sure your defensive tackles, linebackers and strong safety are up to the task of covering for that weakness. And if your strong safety has to be involved you have to be damn sure your corners are up to the task of playing on an island all day. If you're going with your base attack more (the 3-4), then that's where the concern I already brought up comes into play...you have two guys that need to be rushing WAY more often than dropping, in order to be using them to their best...and so that means you have to be rushing 5 all the time from your base defense. And if you want to blitz your ILBs any significant amount in order to give the OL something to think about, you're rushing 6 players. Or you're just not rushing the ILBs. That becomes the Pasqualoni defense all over again...and I don't think you want that. I know Mike Nolan doesn't. He wants variation. He wants guessing. He wants to get as much rush as he can while dropping as many people back into coverage as he can.
This is a passing league and huge holes in the coverage net are easier to exploit given the state of the league and the way it's changing, than pressuring the QB with 5 or 6 players. It has its place, but it's very situational, needs to be creative (and you can't be creative if you have a bunch of "this guy has to line up over here and rush rather than drop to be effective" guys).
I'm against it.
The rest of the time (70-80%) you have to worry about what WEAKNESSES you're creating, when you put the two on the field together. If you're going four-down fronts on those downs with Wake and Quinn as your bookends, I think you're creating a hell of a weakness to the run game. You'd better be damn sure your defensive tackles, linebackers and strong safety are up to the task of covering for that weakness. And if your strong safety has to be involved you have to be damn sure your corners are up to the task of playing on an island all day. If you're going with your base attack more (the 3-4), then that's where the concern I already brought up comes into play...you have two guys that need to be rushing WAY more often than dropping, in order to be using them to their best...and so that means you have to be rushing 5 all the time from your base defense. And if you want to blitz your ILBs any significant amount in order to give the OL something to think about, you're rushing 6 players. Or you're just not rushing the ILBs. That becomes the Pasqualoni defense all over again...and I don't think you want that. I know Mike Nolan doesn't. He wants variation. He wants guessing. He wants to get as much rush as he can while dropping as many people back into coverage as he can.
This is a passing league and huge holes in the coverage net are easier to exploit given the state of the league and the way it's changing, than pressuring the QB with 5 or 6 players. It has its place, but it's very situational, needs to be creative (and you can't be creative if you have a bunch of "this guy has to line up over here and rush rather than drop to be effective" guys).
I'm against it.
I'm completely against the idea of having a Jason Taylor/Joey Porter situation. I agree with your defensive philosophy.
If your % evaluation is correct, I also agree that it's difficult to justify spending the 15th pick on an additional outside pass rusher. That said, I do think it'd serve us well to have someone to spell Wake. When you factor in the plays he needs off with the plays that an Aldon Smith or Robert Quinn would come in against teams like Green Bay or New England - or the importance of those plays against teams like Pittsburgh - I think you can begin to justify the selection. Aldon Smith especially gives you a lot of diversity as a pass rusher. The '09 Aldon Smith applies some of the quickest pressure I've seen from a prospect. He had a half sack more than Quinn that year, but I'd make a strong guess that he had more QB pressures and QB hits. On many occasions, I saw Smith apply immediate pressure on numerous occasions, where a WR would also break open and Smith would come just short of a sack. Smith also gives you versatility to rush from inside (as, now, numerous sites have noted). Those hands are devastating, and I like the way he tests an O-lineman's balance and lateral quickness on almost every play (being Tackle or Guard), and he bats a lot of balls down at the line of scrimmage. It's not just his length, either. He has a knack for closing the play - whether it's making a relatively difficult tackle in the backfield or timing his jump at the LOS. I just realized it, but I'd compare him a lot to a young Jason Taylor - but with more powerful hands, better inside rush moves, and the ability to add more weight.
End of the day, we need a QB, and the 1st pick should be spent on a QB - one way or another (as you've mentioned in the past). But, if it were between an O-lineman, a healthy Mark Ingram (doesn't seem to be the case), a Hankerson (or even a J. Jones), and A. Smith (or maybe R. Quinn)? I feel best about Smith.
If your % evaluation is correct, I also agree that it's difficult to justify spending the 15th pick on an additional outside pass rusher. That said, I do think it'd serve us well to have someone to spell Wake. When you factor in the plays he needs off with the plays that an Aldon Smith or Robert Quinn would come in against teams like Green Bay or New England - or the importance of those plays against teams like Pittsburgh - I think you can begin to justify the selection. Aldon Smith especially gives you a lot of diversity as a pass rusher. The '09 Aldon Smith applies some of the quickest pressure I've seen from a prospect. He had a half sack more than Quinn that year, but I'd make a strong guess that he had more QB pressures and QB hits. On many occasions, I saw Smith apply immediate pressure on numerous occasions, where a WR would also break open and Smith would come just short of a sack. Smith also gives you versatility to rush from inside (as, now, numerous sites have noted). Those hands are devastating, and I like the way he tests an O-lineman's balance and lateral quickness on almost every play (being Tackle or Guard), and he bats a lot of balls down at the line of scrimmage. It's not just his length, either. He has a knack for closing the play - whether it's making a relatively difficult tackle in the backfield or timing his jump at the LOS. I just realized it, but I'd compare him a lot to a young Jason Taylor - but with more powerful hands, better inside rush moves, and the ability to add more weight.
End of the day, we need a QB, and the 1st pick should be spent on a QB - one way or another (as you've mentioned in the past). But, if it were between an O-lineman, a healthy Mark Ingram (doesn't seem to be the case), a Hankerson (or even a J. Jones), and A. Smith (or maybe R. Quinn)? I feel best about Smith.
Fix'd ? :)
The more I see of Mally the more I can see that, his fakes and just the way he handles the ball and himself.
On TJ Yates: I'm liking him as a 4th-5th IF we haven't covered QB by then. There was 1 thing missing, for me, in the closing interview on either yesterdays Path To the Draft or Inside the NFL (I forget which) with Yates head coach about the UNC pro day.
They gave the coach basically an open mike and a national platform to say whatever he wanted about any player on his team not named Quinn or Austin. He has a 4 year starting QB that he groomed in a pro style offense and he says basically nothing about him. No idea why, was just very odd to me.
Davis is a former NFL coach and what I'm left with is, what is he saying to NFL teams about Yates ? I would think if he was touting/pushing him TJ wouldn't be so "under the radar".
I'm with you on Yates going for it. I like the aggression and confidence. Discretion can and will need to be honed, like any other collage QB to 1 extent or another.
His initial statement is accurate. It's a prerequisite to stay in the league - especially as a starter.
I would argue that a good case could be made of some starters playing scared. Esp if they get the crap beat out of them as rookie starters for teams with bad olines or bad oline injuries (whatever) for the 1st couple years.
Thinking "happy feet" syndrome here.
Thinking "happy feet" syndrome here.
Yep, just ask Brett Farve. He had a pretty good career taking chances.
DefensiveEnd76
Football Guru
It doesn't seem like many scouts agree with you.
Roman529
Moon Runner / The 3 AM Crew
With Pennington tearing his ACL we could possibly be bringing in a couple of QB's through the draft, depending on who is available. I think Gabbert, Newton, and Mallett go in Round One. I think Ponder likely goes in Round Two, along with Locker, Dalton, and Kaepernick. I think Yates will be there in Round Three. Stanzi, McElroy and Enderle are probably 4th rounders or later and I probably wouldn't look at anyone else at QB this draft. Nice review of Yates. I never seen him in a game, just on film, but it looks like he throws a nice accurate pass.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Honestly that's just not the feel I got from his interview. What I got from it is, he was asked to compare T.J. Yates to Christian Ponder, who is basically a 1st round pick in this Draft, and he said that Ponder is definitely a little more athletic, but that T.J. Yates is smarter and more pro-ready.