Talent Vs Coaching

[bane]

Don’t kid yourselves. Miami doesn’t have much talent. Gil Brandt was saying he will never understand how we won 7 games with our roster and injuries. We are not more talented then pats or colts. And Chris Hogan was better at the time then all our wide outs except Hartline and Bess. Just the dumb ass philibin didn’t keep him. He shoulda been kept.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

Similar topic on sports radio. The question was whether Bellichick made Brady or the other way around. One fan pointed out that Bellichick was under .500 with Cleveland and that the only year Brady was out due to injury the Patriots missed the playoffs. So, yes talent counts. Not saying Bellichick never wins a super bowl without Brady, but hard to imagine the same success.

OTOH, like every team, key players (excluding QB) hurt the team's W/L, BB has won with some average QBs, and Brady isn't the one who creates gameplans. Personally, I can't finger either one as THE key to success. Anyone arguing for either is not being honest.

 

[fansinceGWilson]

Don’t kid yourselves. Miami doesn’t have much talent. Gil Brandt was saying he will never understand how we won 7 games with our roster and injuries. We are not more talented then pats or colts. And Chris Hogan was better at the time then all our wide outs except Hartline and Bess. Just the dumb *** philibin didn’t keep him. He shoulda been kept.

I guess I'm kidding myself. Miami has talent. No, I'm not going to argue it's AFC championship talent. Not even going to argue it's top 5 in the AFC, BUT it has more talent than many like to admit. Drake, Wilson, Grant, Stills, James, Tunsil, Taylor, Baker, X, Fitz, Jones, McCain, and handful of others I may have missed could start for many teams. Not going to say all are All-Pro talents, but talent that can't be denied. And that's not counting ST players or guys like Amendola, Sitton, Wake who may not be back. What Miami is missing is depth and they have 2-4 pretty big holes (e.g., 2nd CB).

Had Miami had a BB, Reid, or Payton, Miami would have been a playoff team. Coaching counts that much.

I agree, they succeeded beyond what I expected, given all the injuries. Can't explain that. Nor can I explain the NE win (or even staying close). Some of those guys don't look like NFL level talent. Nonetheless, I'll throw in a few 'if's,s and I'll admit they're big ones. Let's say Flores, his OC/DC are at least NFL average. Add an average mentally quick QB, CB, two OGs (assuming Sitton is gone). I can make a reasonable argument that's playoff level. Couple of hits in FA and a couple in the draft. Not unreasonable. Putting on my pessimistic hat, that's asking a lot for the Dolpins of the last 20 years.

 

[Martel13]

The Dolphins never really seem to get the most out of their players no matter who the coaching staff is. Been that way for most of this century

 

[bane]

I guess I'm kidding myself. Miami has talent. No, I'm not going to argue it's AFC championship talent. Not even going to argue it's top 5 in the AFC, BUT it has more talent than many like to admit. Drake, Wilson, Grant, Stills, James, Tunsil, Taylor, Baker, X, Fitz, Jones, McCain, and handful of others I may have missed could start for many teams. Not going to say all are All-Pro talents, but talent that can't be denied. And that's not counting ST players or guys like Amendola, Sitton, Wake who may not be back. What Miami is missing is depth and they have 2-4 pretty big holes (e.g., 2nd CB).

Had Miami had a BB, Reid, or Payton, Miami would have been a playoff team. Coaching counts that much.

I agree, they succeeded beyond what I expected, given all the injuries. Can't explain that. Nor can I explain the NE win (or even staying close). Some of those guys don't look like NFL level talent. Nonetheless, I'll throw in a few 'if's,s and I'll admit they're big ones. Let's say Flores, his OC/DC are at least NFL average. Add an average mentally quick QB, CB, two OGs (assuming Sitton is gone). I can make a reasonable argument that's playoff level. Couple of hits in FA and a couple in the draft. Not unreasonable. Putting on my pessimistic hat, that's asking a lot for the Dolpins of the last 20 years.

I agree it’s hard to be positive. After this season I have none in me. I just think nothing will change unless we get a top qb

No question there is some talent. I think it’s mostly on offense.
But by the end of the year there was none. That’s my point in a way. If this team stayed healthy the ceiling was 10 wins which I think would have happened. But 10 wins and a first round exit. Nothing beyond . Mostly cause of the qb and line. I am in the minority but I think gase got the most out of this team he could. Burke sucked though but I don’t we have any talent on defense except fitz and Howard. I like Taylor too. Not sold on baker or McMillan. Jones if used correctly.

Tannehill isn’t answer. He needs a really good line. No pocket awareness. I think our biggest injury was Sitton. Line really went down without him.

I still remember that titans game. Nobody touched tannehill. That dink and dunk offense worked. Larsen comes in and pair that with average center and Davis. It was over.

We went from a ceiling of 10 wins to 7 wins. I think coaching other then Burke was fine.
Not much talent on defense and the important talent on offense Willson and Sitton were injuried. The all important Qb position was not talented enough to compete with really good teams especially on the road.

 

[BigNastyFish]

IMO it's ALWAYS about balance.

You gotta have horses to win and you gotta have the right plan for the race.

Bottom line, the league is pretty much dealing with the same or similar talent across the board

so it's critical how you (a) evaluate available talent relative to your "system" and

(b) adapt your "system" to the available talent...

If you can find a niche others ignore, or don't optimize the way you can -- then you're really ahead of the curve.

 

[DolphinVJ]

Don’t kid yourselves. Miami doesn’t have much talent. Gil Brandt was saying he will never understand how we won 7 games with our roster and injuries. We are not more talented then pats or colts. And Chris Hogan was better at the time then all our wide outs except Hartline and Bess. Just the dumb *** philibin didn’t keep him. He shoulda been kept.

In the original post, I was saying arguably Miami has more Defensive talent than NE or Indy, I wasn't saying overall talent. And in retrospect, seems like we sent out top shelf talent like Suh, M. Pouncey, Landry, Ajayi a year agos mainly because of personality clash with Gase. As a leader - Gase - you can't take things personally. I think interpersonal skills are Gase's biggest weakness. He may be fine with Xs and Os for the most part other than some questionable play calling at times. Some games, the whole team just didn't show up to play. Your coach and QB are the two biggest leaders on the team so Tannehill needs to take some blame for losing 5 games in 2018 by at least 15 points.

 

[SF Dolphin Fan]

I guess I'm kidding myself. Miami has talent. No, I'm not going to argue it's AFC championship talent. Not even going to argue it's top 5 in the AFC, BUT it has more talent than many like to admit. Drake, Wilson, Grant, Stills, James, Tunsil, Taylor, Baker, X, Fitz, Jones, McCain, and handful of others I may have missed could start for many teams. Not going to say all are All-Pro talents, but talent that can't be denied. And that's not counting ST players or guys like Amendola, Sitton, Wake who may not be back. What Miami is missing is depth and they have 2-4 pretty big holes (e.g., 2nd CB).

Had Miami had a BB, Reid, or Payton, Miami would have been a playoff team. Coaching counts that much.

I agree, they succeeded beyond what I expected, given all the injuries. Can't explain that. Nor can I explain the NE win (or even staying close). Some of those guys don't look like NFL level talent. Nonetheless, I'll throw in a few 'if's,s and I'll admit they're big ones. Let's say Flores, his OC/DC are at least NFL average. Add an average mentally quick QB, CB, two OGs (assuming Sitton is gone). I can make a reasonable argument that's playoff level. Couple of hits in FA and a couple in the draft. Not unreasonable. Putting on my pessimistic hat, that's asking a lot for the Dolpins of the last 20 years.

There is talent, but where Miami lacks talent is in very critical positions like quarterback, defensive line and offensive line.

 

[Mach2]

Neither succeeds without the other.

I think the disparity in player talent among teams is small compared to the disparity among coaching staffs.

That being said, the one position where talent level makes a huge difference is QB. An "elite" guy behind center makes an average team a perennial playoff team.

While it is possible for a great defense to carry an average QB, it is difficult to maintain. The Ravens are the exception, but that too points to the importance of coaching.

 

[PBay Fin Fan]

Gase put all his eggs in the RT17 basket. Everything I have seen/read has stated the team gave up on Tannehill, and Gase. I gave up on RT this year too. A bitter disappointment.

 

[Mach2]

Gase put all his eggs in the RT17 basket. Everything I have seen/read has stated the team gave up on Tannehill, and Gase. I gave up on RT this year too. A bitter disappointment.

His lack of pocket awareness doomed him to a ceiling of mediocrity. The failure to put him behind a quality O-line doomed him to being a scapegoat.

We should have moved on from him when we moved on from Philbin.

 

[ChambersWI]

To say Miami doesnt have talent is unfair. To say that the roster is very unbalanced though is fair. It is also fair to say you feel that the coaching staff didnt adjust to some of the roster issues

 

[ANUFan]

To say Miami doesnt have talent is unfair. To say that the roster is very unbalanced though is fair. It is also fair to say you feel that the coaching staff didnt adjust to some of the roster issues

Ridiculously unfair! An untalented team is never 1-2 games away from making the playoffs in the NFL.

 

[ChambersWI]

Ridiculously unfair! An untalented team is never 1-2 games away from making the playoffs in the NFL.

Now let me expand as well, I do feel the team gambled on Tank/Lippett being a good CB and when that didn't happen we were stuck. I do think the pass rush was relying on bounce back year from Branch and Harris developing and neither happened. And I do feel that the approach to guards has always been iffy (now some of that is also on Gase but that's another story)

That being said as well, I don't think the staff took the right approach to helping mask those issues. Tanny ended up taking a lot of unnecessary hits as defenses exposed what our lines struggled at. Now were blocking adjustments or route adjustments made? Didn't seem like it, but again how much is that coaching and how much is the players/QB (again another debate). I also feel that Burke did not do a good job of helping to generate pressure through scheme and was too reliant on individual effort

 

[phinfan40353]

Neither succeeds without the other.

I think the disparity in player talent among teams is small compared to the disparity among coaching staffs.

That being said, the one position where talent level makes a huge difference is QB. An "elite" guy behind center makes an average team a perennial playoff team.

While it is possible for a great defense to carry an average QB, it is difficult to maintain. The Ravens are the exception, but that too points to the importance of coaching.

Eloquently stated.