Talent Vs Coaching | Page 5 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Talent Vs Coaching

Austin Tatious said:
That's mature, Anu. But, do me a favor, ignore me if you are going to be such an emotional baby.

Regarding Wilson, let me help you.

https://phinphanatic.com/2018/07/30/dolphins-gase-says-albert-wilson-not-slot-receiver/

https://www.miamiherald.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/armando-salguero/article215757215.html

https://dolphinswire.usatoday.com/2...-adam-gase-says-albert-wilson-isnt-a-slot-wr/

I never said turnovers don't count by the way. But Baker can't hold up against the run. Alonso is bottom of the barrel against the pass. You don't get above average out of that.

If you had even a basic understanding of statistics, you'd realize you're hanging your hopes on outliers and you will revert to the mean. If you want to dream about miracle victories meaning that your talent is good, have at it. Except that it won't happen. That's why they are literally called "m-i-r-a-c-l-e-s."
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Just curious. How many NFL LBs are good against the run AND pass?
 
Austin Tatious said:
The talent debate is interesting. There are probably three elite level players for the future, a few good players, and some solid players sprinkled around.

But if you consider an analogy like treating each unit like a business sector, you would have mostly below average units/sectors. If you drill down to the next level and consider industries as analogous to sub-position groups, you might get some subgroups that are good. But, when you look at it this way, you can see the team lacks talent overall. The data confirms all this when you end up 31st or so on O and D.

Sector/Unit
quarterbacks - below average
running backs - average, maybe slightly above average
receiver - average
offensive line - below average
TE - considerably below average
defensive line - below average
linebacker - below average
defensive backfield - above average

If you want to drill down a level:

Industry/Sub-group
offensive tackles - well above average
interior offensive line - considerably below average
outside receiver - average
slot receiver - below average
defensive end - considerably below average
defensive tackle - slightly below average
inside linebacker - below average
outside linebacker - below average
corner - above average
safety - above average

There are some solid players throughout but not enough to have really good units. The team doesn't have any particular go-to strength that forms an identity.

I'd say overall, while there are three elite players (Tunsil, Howard, Fitzpatrick) and a number of solid players, it's not enough by a long shot.
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I get your point, but you're focused too much on individual talent. Don't know whether you'll admit it or not, but the OC/DC were, arguably, league worst. Many games the D were running around pointing at O players, almost like sandlot. A number of us have mentioned we could call some of Miami's plays based on down/distance/formation. I would argue the talent is better than it seems, but the OC/DC held them back.
 
Mach2 said:
What's with the combative attitude? I wasn't diminishing his value, or importance. Merely pointing out the position at which he primarily took snaps.
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Combative? More like trying to correct an incorrect statement.
 
fansinceGWilson said:
I can agree with that. That's the importance of coaching. Miami fans have seen good players come to Miami and look average and have seen Miami's below average players go to another team and have success. Not always, but all of us can name quite a few.

For every position in the NFL, probably 3-5 starters AREN'T NFL quality starters. There just aren't enough to fill 32 rosters. Top teams either make certain they aren't on THEIR team or coach them up or develop game plans to cover their weaknesses. That's where Miami has failed for 20 years - coaching. Of course, it's easier for a top team to sign the player they want than a 3-13 team with no hope of improvement.

You nailed it on evaluation, but we can NOT under-emphasize good coaching - the main reason Miami's OL has sucked for so long. Identifying players (that's where the talent comes in), coaching them up to their potential, and developing schemes to take advantage of the talent can make a 2-3 win difference in a season.
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This is why it's so important to understand what positions have the greatest impact. The best teams tend to value and cheap the correct positions, but the good news is that there's still meat on the bone, and even the best teams are far from fully optimized.
 
Austin Tatious said:
The talent debate is interesting. There are probably three elite level players for the future, a few good players, and some solid players sprinkled around.

But if you consider an analogy like treating each unit like a business sector, you would have mostly below average units/sectors. If you drill down to the next level and consider industries as analogous to sub-position groups, you might get some subgroups that are good. But, when you look at it this way, you can see the team lacks talent overall. The data confirms all this when you end up 31st or so on O and D.

Sector/Unit
quarterbacks - below average
running backs - average, maybe slightly above average
receiver - average
offensive line - below average
TE - considerably below average
defensive line - below average
linebacker - below average
defensive backfield - above average

If you want to drill down a level:

Industry/Sub-group
offensive tackles - well above average
interior offensive line - considerably below average
outside receiver - average
slot receiver - below average
defensive end - considerably below average
defensive tackle - slightly below average
inside linebacker - below average
outside linebacker - below average
corner - above average
safety - above average

There are some solid players throughout but not enough to have really good units. The team doesn't have any particular go-to strength that forms an identity.

I'd say overall, while there are three elite players (Tunsil, Howard, Fitzpatrick) and a number of solid players, it's not enough by a long shot.
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"Of course that's your contention. You're a first year grad student. You just got finished some Marxian historian, Pete Garrison prob’ly, you’re gonna be convinced of that until next month when you get to James Lemon, then you’re gonna be talkin’ about how the economies of Virginia and Pennsylvania were entrepreneurial and capitalist way back in 1740. That's gonna last until next year, you’re gonna be in here regurgitating Gordon Wood, talkin’ about you know, the Pre-revolutionary utopia and the capital-forming effects of military mobilization."

-- Will Hunting

:)
 
fansinceGWilson said:
I can agree with that. That's the importance of coaching. Miami fans have seen good players come to Miami and look average and have seen Miami's below average players go to another team and have success. Not always, but all of us can name quite a few.

For every position in the NFL, probably 3-5 starters AREN'T NFL quality starters. There just aren't enough to fill 32 rosters. Top teams either make certain they aren't on THEIR team or coach them up or develop game plans to cover their weaknesses. That's where Miami has failed for 20 years - coaching. Of course, it's easier for a top team to sign the player they want than a 3-13 team with no hope of improvement.

You nailed it on evaluation, but we can NOT under-emphasize good coaching - the main reason Miami's OL has sucked for so long. Identifying players (that's where the talent comes in), coaching them up to their potential, and developing schemes to take advantage of the talent can make a 2-3 win difference in a season.
Click to expand...

The really interesting dynamic in the N F L these days as it pertains to talent evaluation/acquisition/optimization is IMO a certain degree of "elasticity" (or real world analysis) whereby you can project how [payer A] can be incorporated into your "winning formula" and at the SAME TIME allow the parameters of your "winning formula" to morph/evolve relative to the prevailing talent. Simple point is -- don't try to drive a oblique angle into a parallel pathway...

If my premise is correct -- that means "smarts" is perhaps the most critical overall attribute needed top down in a winning org.
 
BigNastyFish said:
The really interesting dynamic in the N F L these days as it pertains to talent evaluation/acquisition/optimization is IMO a certain degree of "elasticity" (or real world analysis) whereby you can project how [payer A] can be incorporated into your "winning formula" and at the SAME TIME allow the parameters of your "winning formula" to morph/evolve relative to the prevailing talent. Simple point is -- don't try to drive a oblique angle into a parallel pathway...

If my premise is correct -- that means "smarts" is perhaps the most critical overall attribute needed top down in a winning org.
Click to expand...

I'm going to blindly suggest something that might not be the popular consensus around here. I don't believe Miami has had a deficit of "smarts." I believe NFL players are maybe smarter than they've ever been. The issue that seems to continually plague Miami are players who simply don't study their roles and know where they're supposed to be on the field. Even when they do know, they don't necessarily follow it through to the end at full speed. Now, some people will point to this as a coaching issue, but I believe that it's even more than that. Players are smart enough to know they finally have money, and these are probably the best days of their lives. A football career is going to wreck them if they're not careful. Playing in South Florida has to also make it especially challenging to stay fully bought in on the coach's program.

I base a lot of this on what I'm noticing around the league. We've arrived at the point where it's legitimate to question whether coaches actually know better than the best players in the game how to win football games. Everyone knows what happened in Green Bay with Rodgers and McCarthy, and rumors have been swirling for a couple of years about Brady and Belichik. Just imagine how difficult it is for any head coach who doesn't have the cred to wield that authority that comes with being a head coach. When you consider that today's NFL player is willing to play down if you don't pay him what he wants, it's easy to see why players, especially Miami players, won't even learn the playbook let alone finish routes or block where they're supposed to. Who exactly is supposed to be able to fix that?
 
superphin said:
You need to have an overwhelming amount of talent to pick up the slack of a 2nd rate coach. Think Barry Switzer on the Cowboys 1995 SB team. Great coaching without great talent and great talent without great coaching gets in you in contention for a playoff spot.

Great coaching and great talent working hand in hand and that's how you build a dynasty and contend for Super Bowls.
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I agree with you....whole heartedly.
 
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