The Bottom Line Is That Huizenga Really Does Not Feel That Wale Is A Great Player.... | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

The Bottom Line Is That Huizenga Really Does Not Feel That Wale Is A Great Player....

Ogunleye is very valuble to this team. He is worth more than a 5 million dollar signing bonus IMO. He is an excellent player and in the past 2 season has gotten over 24 sacks. If we don't keep him, our defense will suffer. Ogunleye has been essential to our pass rush the past two years. He isn't as good as Taylor but he is still a very good player and one that we need to have on the field playing for us this season.
 
The bottom line is that the MARKET sets the value for an undrafted restricted player. Kearse and Wistrom got their huge deals because they signed early and were unrestricted players. The market set their value and it was inflated.

Right now, no other team in the NFL is offering to make Adewale Ogunleye a millionaire. The earlier a player signs in the offseason...the more inflated his value. The later a player signs in the offseason...the more deflated his value becomes.

No fancy agent is going to strong arm Spielman and company into an inflated contract that will hurt this team. This has nothing to do with Mr H. It has to do with Wale learning and understanding what his actual value is now and how the market sets that value. He can act like Gadsden and back away from the team that got him into the NFL. Or he can commit himself to the Miami Dolphins...become a millionaire...and prove to this team that he is worth every penny. It's all up Wale. Choose wisely Prince Ogunleye.

JT played out his contract and got a 9 million bonus. Wale did not...and he won't get that much.
 
ZOD said:
First, let me say that I highly doubt that Wayne H. has stuck his nose into Bryan Weidemeyer's job. I highly doubt that Weidemeyer would stay with this team if the owner chose to do so. It has been widely reported that Weidemeyer's skills are second to none in the NFL.

To a point I agree with you on this point. It is a team effort to evaluate players and come to an agreed amount for value. Wiedmeier's job is negotiation so the GM and coaches have to give the evaluation on quality of play and potential. If the Dolphins are only offering $5 million it is just to wear down Roenhaus as Ogunleye is worth an $8 to 10 million signing bonus even as a RFA.

ZOD said:
... he agreed to a six year 42 million dollar contract in 2001 with a 9 million dollar signing bonus.

The fact is that he dealt fairly with this team. He played out his original contract. He accepted the tender offer as an exclusive rights free agent. At the conclusion of that contract the Dolphins took no chances.

FRANCHISED!!!

Adewale Ogunleye has played out his original contract. He is an exclusive rights free agent. He chose not to sign his 1.8 million dollar tender offer. It does not take a math genius to figure out that someone is attempting to subvert the process.

The fact that Jason Taylor or any other RFA dealt fairly with the team because they signed a required tender is just a fairy tale. When a player is not under contract he has every right to holdout. He also has the right to accumulate another credited season for being available for only six games of the season. Fans may not like it but that is also fair and within the rules of the CBA. If any don't think so please speak up and I will quote you article and section of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.


While I'm on my soap-box I would like to address the issue of any DE putting up 10 sacks because of Jason Taylor being on the other side and using stats to prove it. That is just using stats to prove a preconceived point of view. If it were true then other great pass rushers like Strahan and Simeon Rice would be doing the same. Can anyone name the DE opposite these players without looking it up???

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/stati...=off&league=nfl&order=true&season=2&year=2003

Since everyone is comparing Taylor to Oguneley lets do it. Ogun has 25 sacks in his first three seasons of play.
Taylor had 16.5 sacks.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=5768
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=3968

Both played for the minimum for the first three years. Taylor received approximately $345k signing bonus. $115k for three years.
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/sfn/afceast.htm
In 1998 his bonus was $119.8k and $136.7k in 1999 which I am assuming include other bonuses.

Ogunleye received a $7,550. signing bonus for two years and $111k for the year 2000 which he did not play. Since he had 15 sacks whick led the AFC and the team last year I think he has more than repaid the team for his first year.
http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/playerdetail.aspx?lname=ogunleye&player=1732

Taylor put up 14.5 sacks in his required tender year and its a good thing he played that year or he never would have received his $9 million signing bonus for his previous play.
Ogunleye has already put up one season of 9.5 sacks and 15 sacks. I don't think that qualifies him for a $15 million bonus but certainly does an $8 to $10 million signing bonus. Keep in mind a 10 sack season is an elite year.

Now some may think that I am putting Taylor down but I am not. I am just comparing the first three years of their careers. And there is no reason to think that Ogunleye will not improve as it's my opinion it's the coaches that deserve the credit for Ogunleye and Taylor's performances.
 
Listen with OGUNLEYE on the opposite side of JT, opposing teams would have to pick their poison. I dont think you can devote 4 blockers to two ends all the time so when its a one on one match up, JT or AO will be free to maul.

KEEP OGUNLEYE!
 
Muck said:
That's really not true. Wale faces the RT and usually the TE. That slows his rush down by about 1 second.

I'd like to think that on passing downs the TE more often than not goes on a route or is replaced by a wide reciever.
 
I think with this post, I definately fall into the "DCH just repeats what he's read but doesnt link or quote sources" group.

I mean, Jesus. Pretty much everything he said could be gathered from a series of articles.
 
Merman said:
... When a player is not under contract he has every right to holdout. He also has the right to accumulate another credited season for being available for only six games of the season. Fans may not like it but that is also fair and within the rules of the CBA...

Of course Ogun has the right to sit out and make less money. It wouldn't make a lot of sense...yet he has that right. To play six games and risk injury for less than a 1/2 million dollars...yes, he completely has that right.

He doesn't have the right to demand Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila like money (11 million bonus, 7 year deal). Firstly, KGB was completely willing to play out his final restricted year and sign the 1.3 million tender. Secondly, KGB had the Eagles seriously persuing him (setting his market value). But, in the end...they knew that he wanted to stay with the Packers.

Thirdly, any large contract or signing bonus has a direct relationship to the teams salary cap. The Dolphins continue to be defensively heavy on the cap approaching a time when the talent on offense is beginning to mature (Chambers, McMichael). This has a direct affect on limiting that which can be spent on defense. The Dolphins can not just continue an all out spending spree on Defense and expect to field a competitive offensive team for the future.
 
Disgustipate said:
I think with this post, I definately fall into the "DCH just repeats what he's read but doesnt link or quote sources" group.

Pretty much everything he said could be gathered from a series of articles.

I have not read anything that put Wayne in the middle of this mess. That would be "news" to me. In the past I know DCH has quoted Drew because Drew's clients use the memorablia store DCH owns/manages. I live out of the area but from everything I do read, Drew is a fairly public individual in the Miami area and thus it is likely that a number of folks would have some access to him and his views.

I for one appreciate DCH's postings.
 
PhinstiGator said:
Of course Ogun has the right to sit out and make less money. It wouldn't make a lot of sense...yet he has that right. To play six games and risk injury for less than a 1/2 million dollars...yes, he completely has that right.

He doesn't have the right to demand Kabeer Gbaja-Biamila like money (11 million bonus, 7 year deal). Firstly, KGB was completely willing to play out his final restricted year and sign the 1.3 million tender. Secondly, KGB had the Eagles seriously persuing him (setting his market value). But, in the end...they knew that he wanted to stay with the Packers.

Good points that I want to address. First a player can demand any amout he damn well choses. And again because a player chooses to accept a required tender does not make them any more deserving than an unsigned player. The whole idea of the required tender for draft picks is to discourage teams from going after RFAs and Franchised players. Ogunleye is most definitely worth a first and third draft pick. He is not worth both picks and a big contract. Before last year a first round pick deterred teams until Snyder grabbed Coles for a first round pick and a $13 million signing bonus.

As for not deserving KBG money look at the sacks and the tackles.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=5178
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/stats?statsId=5768

Thirdly, any large contract or signing bonus has a direct relationship to the teams salary cap. The Dolphins continue to be defensively heavy on the cap approaching a time when the talent on offense is beginning to mature (Chambers, McMichael). This has a direct affect on limiting that which can be spent on defense. The Dolphins can not just continue an all out spending spree on Defense and expect to field a competitive offensive team for the future.

Good point. But this team is predicated on defense. That is why the cap imbalance. Saying that it should be more balanced could just be throwing money at an idea rather than where the star players are. Also signing high priced FAs does not mean that they are star players nor is it a good way to balance out the salary cap money between offense and defense.

Chambers and McMichael are good palyers. What many fans seem to forget that other than TDs for Chambers neither has shown the greatness that Ogunleye has shown. That's why Chambers is content not to negotiate a contract until after this year. McMicheal is two years away from contract negotiations and the Dolphins need him to play out his rookie contract for cap purposes.
 
KGB, Kearse, Winstrom--all these guys are overpaid big time. The phins are suffering because of the benchmark these players set. Fact is there are too many important players we have to get signed in the future. RW, PS, RM, and CC to name a few. Would you rather have RW or Ogun? Surtain or Ogun? CC or OGun? They all can't be paid mega contracts. I would take the above 3 before Ogun personally.

We can't sign them all to huge contracts. Miami is absolutely doing the right thing.
 
As always dch you come through. I think the fins are comfortable with D-bo at end and do not want to buckle to Drews demands. Wale is a nice player but JT makes the other end better who ever that may be when the season opens up.. bottom line.
 
Thanks CW

CirclingWagons said:
Strahan led the league in sacks

I read in PFW that Wale led the league. Thanks for clarifying. I still think we need him on the team though.
 
Merman said:
Good points that I want to address. First a player can demand any amout he damn well choses. And again because a player chooses to accept a required tender does not make them any more deserving than an unsigned player. The whole idea of the required tender for draft picks is to discourage teams from going after RFAs and Franchised players. Ogunleye is most definitely worth a first and third draft pick. He is not worth both picks and a big contract. Before last year a first round pick deterred teams until Snyder grabbed Coles for a first round pick and a $13 million signing bonus.
A player that wants to play for this team must demand a salary that fits inside our salary cap structure. We could have given Todd Wade the 10 million signing bonus that he demanded. It would not have made us a better team and the price was inflated. That demand sent him to another team that was in a position to overpay. However, the market did set the price...as it now is with Ogunleye.

KGB is the top lineman on his team. The Packers wanted to get him signed to a long term deal the same way we were able to lockup JT (our top lineman). His value as the #1 DE on the team was set with the Eagles in pursuit. KGB didn't demand anything. He was willing to play for the 1.3 million tender. Should Ogunleye demand to be paid better than Jason Taylor? I don't think so. Not if he wants to be a Dolphin.

.... But this team is predicated on defense. That is why the cap imbalance. Saying that it should be more balanced could just be throwing money at an idea rather than where the star players are. Also signing high priced FAs does not mean that they are star players nor is it a good way to balance out the salary cap money between offense and defense.
Certainly this team is designed around the defense. And that is the clear priority. However, that imbalance must not continue to grow without limits. In fact, a major priority this off-season is to rebuild the offensive line and the cap has to reflect that bias.

Chambers and McMichael are good palyers. What many fans seem to forget that other than TDs for Chambers neither has shown the greatness that Ogunleye has shown. That's why Chambers is content not to negotiate a contract until after this year. McMicheal is two years away from contract negotiations and the Dolphins need him to play out his rookie contract for cap purposes.
Chambers is on the field working with the QB's and the new WR coordinator. He certainly has shown flashes of greatness. His opportunities have been limited because of the offensive design and rotisserie QB's. With Chambers now working out of the slot...he will have that opportunity to stake his claim to greatness. Spielman would love to get him signed to a long term deal now before his value goes up.

Randy McMichael has stated that he would like to get a new deal this year and there are multiple reports that Rosenhaus is trying to get that extention for him this year..."Yeah, I'm still one of the lowest-paid tight ends. I want my money, but I'm not going to let it consume me. I'm going to go out and let everything take care of itself. I do know one thing, this is going to be my over-the-hump year. This will be a big one for me."

I'm simply not convinced of Ogunleye's greatness. I think he is very good. But, I want to see him repeat what he did last year. Give him a 7 million dollar bonus, 6 year deal with incentives. If he performs...he get's more money.

The Dolphins can not afford to shell out big money when the market value does not demand it.
 
Merman said:
The fact that Jason Taylor or any other RFA dealt fairly with the team because they signed a required tender is just a fairy tale. When a player is not under contract he has every right to holdout. He also has the right to accumulate another credited season for being available for only six games of the season. Fans may not like it but that is also fair and within the rules of the CBA. If any don't think so please speak up and I will quote you article and section of the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

It's funny that Drew mentions Daniel Snyder as his favorite. What have the Redskins done since Snyder owned the team? They have shopped year in and year out for the marquee player. Snyder has paid the big buck contracts each off season. I believe the fallacy in his thought has been the bench suffering. He has no second tier. He can't afford it under the salary cap. That is of course where we all have cited that the Patriots have excelled.

I think the opinion of signing the tender being "fair" is all in the eyes of the beholder. I believe in unions. I fully believe that any labor market that uses the "cover" of a union should not have any sort of free agency system. In a way it requires a team to carry the "dead weight" at an exhorbanant fee as a result of contract negotiations all the while paying a hefty price for the "qualified". Indeed it is contrary to a purely capitalistic or socialistic ideals.

To be quite honest I detest the fact that athletes and entertainers use the same protections granted to a laborer who would bargain collectively for a standardized living wage yet by the same token they would rather negotiate their own wage. What these "stars" are selling is a capitalist dream in a socialist wrapper. To say the least it's hypocritical to use the rookie or the (league average) 3 year player/minimum contract player as a deterent against ownership with the threat of strike then on the same occassion ask for a 20 million dollar signing bonus in a 5 year 80 million contract. When one asks for that amount of money in a salary cap era who are they taking from? Is it the star next to them? Is that a union whose foundation is equality?

As for the salary cap it in itself is a degradation of the capitalist system. The owners (who just happen to be some of the most successful capitalist in all the world) have deduced that this league will devour itself if left to it's own. I realize that's a simple minded take on a larger issue but it's worth putting out there just for the purposes of this conversation. Much like the US economy the NFL has made a success of straddling the fence of the capitalism and socialism. For us, that's a good thing. We are fans afterall and we would like to see the game played.

This circumstance that Adewale Ogunleye is caught in is just a product of a document. It's not his fault nor can you find one individual to place the blame. Some day soon another athlete will be in the same position. It's the nature of this business that is caused by the structure of the business. The situation does not discount one from making a judgement of what is fair though. Especially from one whose mantra throughout his laboring years has been "a fair days work for a fair days pay."

Calling a description of what one judges fair a "fairy tale".......Well, that is an insult to the very fabric of one's being.

Thank you :)
 
ZOD said:
To be quite honest I detest the fact that athletes and entertainers use the same protections granted to a laborer who would bargain collectively for a standardized living wage yet by the same token they would rather negotiate their own wage. What these "stars" are selling is a capitalist dream in a socialist wrapper. To say the least it's hypocritical to use the rookie or the (league average) 3 year player/minimum contract player as a deterent against ownership with the threat of strike then on the same occassion ask for a 20 million dollar signing bonus in a 5 year 80 million contract. When one asks for that amount of money in a salary cap era who are they taking from? Is it the star next to them? Is that a union whose foundation is equality?

Here is the NFLPA's history. Believe it if you want to or not.

http://www.nflpa.org/AboutUs/main.asp?subPage=History


ZOD said:
The situation does not discount one from making a judgement of what is fair though. Especially from one whose mantra throughout his laboring years has been "a fair days work for a fair days pay."

Calling a description of what one judges fair a "fairy tale".......Well, that is an insult to the very fabric of one's being.

Thank you :)

If you want to take what I said as an insult that is on you and is your prerogative.

As for what is fair, that is a judgement call. If you think obeying the agreed upon rules between ownership and employees is fair then both signing the required tender and not signing it are both honorable and fair. Both courses of action are allowed with not signing the required tender the harder road.

The second meaning of fairy tale is: 2. A fictitious, highly fanciful story or explanation. That is certainly the case when it is stated that the fair course of action is only one way when there are two according to the rules.
 
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