The Guard Position

[MARINO1384]

Risner sucks? That is the falsehood.

Maybe sucks is a strong word but he’s not good. Good guards aren’t looking for their third team in 3 years and his pff grades aren’t good.

I also wonder if Barry would even want him in Miami. He was on that broncos team that slandered Barry. I’m not sure if he’s on record saying anything but still Risner regressed under Barry in Denver

 

[MrClean]

Maybe sucks is a strong word but he’s not good. Good guards aren’t looking for their third team in 3 years and his pff grades aren’t good.

I also wonder if Barry would even want him in Miami. He was on that broncos team that slandered Barry. I’m not sure if he’s on record saying anything but still Risner regressed under Barry in Denver

Fineas posted some metrics before, months ago, elsewhere, that indicated as a unit, the Denver OL improved under Barry from Munchak. So their alleged hatred for Barry seemed misguided. Cam Fleming seemed to have a career year at mostly RT in 2022.

Risner's PB grades have been mid/high 60s to low 70s his entire career, which is pretty good.

 

[IMAWriter]

If Blomar Smelly was right for once in his life and there is animosity between Barry and Risner, then we won't sign him.

The entire Denver OLine dislike Barry, for whatever reason

 

[MrClean]

The entire Denver OLine dislike Barry, for whatever reason

But we have never actually heard this directly from the horse's mouth. It is all hearsay.

 

[XxJustinxX]

Time to throw is dictated by when the WR is open and the QB decides to throw it to him, not on the pass blocking. If Tua was throwing "too" early his completion percentage and rating would reflect that. They don't. At all. His completion percentage and rating were near the best in the league.

Yes, he throws the deep passes quickly and was more successful on that than any other QB. there's no reason to want that to change or to expect it to change, as he will be back, as will his top receivers.

The grades you cite are middle of the pack and not a sign that drastic changes are needed. And, of course, those average grades were obtained even with all the OL injuries. Those grades are a useful subjective measure of how guys performed, but the metrics show the actual impact of that performance on the field. And that actual impact is that Tua was pressured less often than any other QB even while throwing for more yards and more deep yards. The Dolphins' team Blown Block rate was the best in the NFL by a wide margin and the BB rate for the OGs was 4th best. The run game averaged the highest YPC in the league and were no. 1 in TDs. The OL did not hold back this offense, even with all those injuries.

Who said anything about throwing too early? He throws it on time better than ANY QB in the league. That's the whole point of the offense.

TTT is not dictated by a WR being open when the offense is built around timing. The ball is thrown to a spot on rhythm based off of pre-snap reads. The throwing data shows we design plays to get the ball out quickly, which greatly aides most of blocking metrics I mentioned. (EFF & PR)

Yes, he throws the deep passes quickly and was more successful on that than any other QB. there's no reason to want that to change or to expect it to change, as he will be back, as will his top receivers.

The point I was making is when you get the ball out that quick, your pressure metrics are not a clear indication of how the OL blocked. So even with deep passing, which correlates to longer TTT, Tua is insanely elite and greatly reducing any chance of pressures being recorded. You can have a linemen get pancaked right off the snap and not be credited with a pressure if the ball is already being thrown.

but the metrics show the actual impact of that performance on the field

Only when combined and analyzed with all corresponding metrics. The pass blocking metrics have me more concerned than run blocking. Tua's average time to throw on drop backs when getting sacked is worst in the league. (3.09 seconds) So he is getting sacked faster on drop backs than any other QB in the NFL. (Joe Burrow was 3.17 seconds for reference) So if his time to throw increases even a small amount, the pressure rates/sacks could skyrocket in a hurry. So yes , Tua was "pressured" less often, but the metrics say a lot of that is due to offensive design and elite QB/WR play.

I'm not overly concerned with the OL or think it needs drastic changes, but I do believe it's our biggest question mark going into the season. We lost a couple great players and we were already playing within razor thin margins.

The OL did not hold back this offense, even with all those injuries.

Don't disagree, just hope Butch can get the same results this year. We should be able to live with an average OL when we have the #1 QB, #1 WR, #1 HB, #3 HB, and #5 WR.

 

[MARINO1384]

Fineas posted some metrics before, months ago, elsewhere, that indicated as a unit, the Denver OL improved under Barry from Munchak. So their alleged hatred for Barry seemed misguided. Cam Fleming seemed to have a career year at mostly RT in 2022.

Risner's PB grades have been mid/high 60s to low 70s his entire career, which is pretty good.

Career low in grades in Denver in 2022. Not that pff is the end all be all just a solid baseline especially for olinemen. Would really have to dig into film which I don’t have time to do lol

Fineas posted some metrics before, months ago, elsewhere, that indicated as a unit, the Denver OL improved under Barry from Munchak. So their alleged hatred for Barry seemed misguided. Cam Fleming seemed to have a career year at mostly RT in 2022.

Risner's PB grades have been mid/high 60s to low 70s his entire career, which is pretty good.

Maybe idk just don’t think he’s worth it or an upgrade over Wynn/Eich. If we are spending the money wait until mid season and check in on Connor Williams or honestly if just looking for depth I’d rather it be C on the oline. Safety is also a cause for concern that I see better use for limited funds. Assuming weaver brings over the same 3 safety philosophy we are stuck with Holland, old man poyer and a bunch of fringe roster guys. Ravens used 3 safeties over 80% of the time.

 

[MrClean]

Career low in grades in Denver in 2022

Maybe idk just don’t think he’s worth it or an upgrade over Wynn/Eich. If we are spending the money wait until mid season and check in on Connor Williams or honestly if just looking for depth I’d rather it be C on the oline. Safety is also a cause for concern that I see better use for limited funds. Assuming weaver brings over the same 3 safety philosophy we are stuck with Holland, old man poyer and a bunch of fringe roster guys. Ravens used 3 safeties over 80% of the time.

Wynn was out of his mind in pass pro last season at LG but it is too small a sample size. Plus he has been more injury-prone in his career than Armstead has. If we could better depend on him, we'd be set.

 

[Fineas]

Who said anything about throwing too early? He throws it on time better than ANY QB in the league. That's the whole point of the offense.

TTT is not dictated by a WR being open when the offense is built around timing. The ball is thrown to a spot on rhythm based off of pre-snap reads. The throwing data shows we design plays to get the ball out quickly, which greatly aides most of blocking metrics I mentioned. (EFF & PR)


The point I was making is when you get the ball out that quick, your pressure metrics are not a clear indication of how the OL blocked. So even with deep passing, which correlates to longer TTT, Tua is insanely elite and greatly reducing any chance of pressures being recorded. You can have a linemen get pancaked right off the snap and not be credited with a pressure if the ball is already being thrown.


Only when combined and analyzed with all corresponding metrics. The pass blocking metrics have me more concerned than run blocking. Tua's average time to throw on drop backs when getting sacked is worst in the league. (3.09 seconds) So he is getting sacked faster on drop backs than any other QB in the NFL. (Joe Burrow was 3.17 seconds for reference) So if his time to throw increases even a small amount, the pressure rates/sacks could skyrocket in a hurry. So yes , Tua was "pressured" less often, but the metrics say a lot of that is due to offensive design and elite QB/WR play.

I'm not overly concerned with the OL or think it needs drastic changes, but I do believe it's our biggest question mark going into the season. We lost a couple great players and we were already playing within razor thin margins.


Don't disagree, just hope Butch can get the same results this year. We should be able to live with an average OL when we have the #1 QB, #1 WR, #1 HB, #3 HB, and #5 WR.

The timing is based on rhythm and play design, but if the first read isn't open or getting open the QB shouldn't be throwing it to him and it will take a little longer to find the 2nd read and so on.

You seem to be missing the point. The whole point. The whole point is how is it affecting the offense. If the offense is thriving and Tua is thriving and the run game is thriving I couldn't care less about why the OL metrics are good. It is literally irrelevant, i.e., it bears no relevance at all to what I care about, which is the performance of the offense and the team as a whole.

Very fast sacks usually aren't even the OL's fault. Those are usually blitzes and free rushers. Since we are talking about PFF metrics, 14% of the pressures allowed were not the fault of the OL, with 11.4% of them Tua's fault. In terms of sacks, PFF attributed 4 of them to Tua. 20 of Tua's 29 sacks were attributed to the OL, so with 4 to Tua, that leaves another 5 for RBs, TE, etc. So about a third of Tua's sacks were not allowed by the OL itself.

 

[Mach2]

Fineas posted some metrics before, months ago, elsewhere, that indicated as a unit, the Denver OL improved under Barry from Munchak. So their alleged hatred for Barry seemed misguided. Cam Fleming seemed to have a career year at mostly RT in 2022.

Risner's PB grades have been mid/high 60s to low 70s his entire career, which is pretty good.

I also saw that statistical analysis at one point, no idea where.

In any case, I don't think the issue was with performance, or coaching knowledge. I get the impression it was mostly a personality thing.

Did Barry learn from the experience? Were the players just being childish? I have no idea.

What I do know, is Barry did a far superior job last season than anyone we have had since early Adam Gase era teams.

 

[XxJustinxX]

You seem to be missing the point. The whole point. The whole point is how is it affecting the offense. If the offense is thriving and Tua is thriving and the run game is thriving I couldn't care less about why the OL metrics are good. It is literally irrelevant, i.e., it bears no relevance at all to what I care about, which is the performance of the offense and the team as a whole.

Got it.

Very fast sacks usually aren't even the OL's fault. Those are usually blitzes and free rushers. Since we are talking about PFF metrics, 14% of the pressures allowed were not the fault of the OL, with 11.4% of them Tua's fault. In terms of sacks, PFF attributed 4 of them to Tua. 20 of Tua's 29 sacks were attributed to the OL, so with 4 to Tua, that leaves another 5 for RBs, TE, etc. So about a third of Tua's sacks were not allowed by the OL itself.

The offensive line being responsible for 86%+ is good for bottom 3rd of the league.

 

[Fineas]

I was skeptical of Barry when he was hired and concerned about those reports out of Denver, but by all indications he did a good job here last year. If he is, or can be, one of those OL coaches that can get good play out of middling talents and great play out of good ones, it is huge for the future of the team.

 

[Fineas]

Got it.



The offensive line being responsible for 86%+ is good for bottom 3rd of the league.

View attachment 169873

You are looking at it wrong. They were responsible for a smaller number of pressures than any other team in the league. An OL that is responsible for 83% of a much larger number of pressures is not better by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[XxJustinxX]

You are looking at it wrong. They were responsible for a smaller number of pressures than any other team in the league. An OL that is responsible for 83% of a much larger number of pressures is not better by any stretch of the imagination.

Very good point! Didn't look at total number.

Appreciate the conversation

 

[IMAWriter]

Wynn was out of his mind in pass pro last season at LG but it is too small a sample size. Plus he has been more injury-prone in his career than Armstead has. If we could better depend on him, we'd be set.

In addition, Achane went wild between Williams and Wynn.

 

[TXFinFan]