The Myth Of The "patriot Way" | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

The Myth Of The "patriot Way"

DPhinz_DPhinz said:
Considering that we

If having "a way" means that we will establish an identity and shape our philosophy in drafting and FA by this identity...sign me up.

In the past, I don't know who, or what we were trying to be...even with Gase.
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Certainly correct. Some confuse the details with the philosophy. Philosophy does NOT mean playing a 3-4, or getting RBs who can catch. That's too specific. To me, the philosophy is not having the same game plan every week. Adapt to personnel. General stuff. BB has done that for a long time and done it quite well. That is "the way." It is quite possible to have variation within that philosophy.
 
fansinceGWilson said:
Certainly correct. Some confuse the details with the philosophy. Philosophy does NOT mean playing a 3-4, or getting RBs who can catch. That's too specific. To me, the philosophy is not having the same game plan every week. Adapt to personnel. General stuff. BB has done that for a long time and done it quite well. That is "the way." It is quite possible to have variation within that philosophy.
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Yes. That us why it is really a myth. There is no single formula for their success. The key is the versatility to do different things well. It has been evident since the beginning of the BB era in NE. Recently, though, they have taken it to a different level.

I like these "young guns". They are a different generation from the BB disciples that came before. Charlie Weiss types? NOT
 
Mach2 said:
Yes. That us why it is really a myth. There is no single formula for their success. The key is the versatility to do different things well. It has been evident since the beginning of the BB era in NE. Recently, though, they have taken it to a different level.

I like these "young guns". They are a different generation from the BB disciples that came before. Charlie Weiss types? NOT
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I'm not certain if we agree or disagree. I don't like "formula" - implies specificity. Philosophy is a mindset. Willingness to adapt. While, on one level it's obvious, I see few HCs do it. Cripple the opponent's O. Again, obvious. Again, VERY few even try. What it's called is of no consequence. What's important is Flores has learned how to adapt, how to game plan, how to adjust. Vary his own O gameplan. Whether we call that the Patriot way or the way of winning coaches, Flores needs to do it THAT way
 
I feel the Dolphins haven't had a real nuts and bolts football coach since 2005. Cam Camerom, Joe Philbin and Adam Gase are all OC's that got promoted to a first time Head Coaching opportunity. I put those 3 in a similar boat, they all failed. I get the impression that Brian Flores gets it. Look at the powerful assistants he's brought in, top people. Gase wanted to be surrounded by yes men that bought into his egocentric horse droppings. Flores wants the best football people around him so right away he shows me he's about team and not self first. He also commanded so much respect in the Patriot organization that several of the best assistants jumped ship with him and came to the Dolphins. This is big and it shows me that were getting a charismatic, dedicated, hard working grinder of a man who has known nothing but success at every stop he's made along the way to becoming the Dolphin's Head Coach. He is a leader and a winner. If the Patriot way is getting a QB that's freaking amazing I'm all in!! That's the next piece of the puzzle

I just realized I left out Tony Soprano. I liked him very much. He had fire and he knew how to run the football the right way. The best part was that the Patriots couldn't stop the Wild Cat! I think another thing that is very Patriot is being totally flexible in all aspects of the game. Building a game plan around your strengths and your opponents weaknesses. Changing up and adjusting on the fly are things the Patriots seem to do better than most. If a game situation calls for running the ball, Brady is ready and they march down the field with a lead full back. If they need to throw it they throw it. They always have the great kickers that help them win games. They simply know how to do it and they're the best the game has ever seen. So, if we're going to raid a staff it might as well be the Patriots. I hope we got it right this time, it feels right.
 
fansinceGWilson said:
The flaw on that is there's no Brady without BB. No way to exclude.BB's influence.
Would Brady have beaten the Rams without BB's D? I think not, but that's just opinion.

Nonetheless, back to topic. There is a 'way.' I don't want Flores to copy it page for page, but I do like many concepts
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I thing there are a few flaws with your flaw :)

First, I was dealing with facts and one of the flaws with the flaw is that Brady couldn't be Brady somewhere else is pure speculation. If the Steelers drafted him the 7th, with the quality of that organization, we might be talking about Brady's 10 Super Bowl wins right now. Imagine playing with WRs like Ward, Wallace, Holmes, Brown, Smith-Schuster a consistently good running game and great defense. We saw what he did with Moss 2007. Or Brady goes to the Ravens, Giants, 49ers etc...we may still be talking about 6 Super Bowl wins. Pure speculation on my part, it's easy to do. The truth is nobody knows for sure. I fall on the side that someone as great as Brady is would have found a way to excel regardless of which team he started with, barring injuries of course.

Second flaw is see with the flaw is Belichick is "NO QB whisperer" and does not have a history of maximizing a QB's talent. In fact, almost all QBs coached by BB have had more success under different coaches.

Bernie Kosar (record as starter)

30-17 under Schottenheimer (1985-88)...Kosar 22-25 years old during those years
12-16-1 under Carson and Schofner (1989-90)...Kosar 26-27 years old
11-18 under Belichick (1991-93)...Kosar 28-30 years old

Mike Tomczak

21-10 under Ditka (1985-90)...Tomczak 23-28 years old
15-12 under Cowher (1993-96)...Tomczak 31-37 years old (included a 10-5 season in only season as starter)
4-4 under Belichick (1992)...Tomczak 30 years old

Vinny Testaverde

12-2 under Parcells (1998-99)...Testaverde 35-36 years old
16-15 under Belichick (1993-95) Testeverde 30-32 year old

Drew Bledsoe

32-27 under Parcells as Pats coach (1993-96)...Bledsoe 21-24 years old
12-10 under Parcells as Cowboys coach (2005-06)...Bledsoe 33-34 years old
26-20 under Pete Carroll (1997-99)...Bledsoe 25-27 years old
14-18 under Gregg Williams (2002-03)...Bledsoe 30-31 years old
9-7 under Mike Mularkey (2004)...Bledsoe 32 year old
5-13 under Belichick (2000-01)...Bledsoe 28-29 years old

* Parcells was 56-39 (.589) and 3-3 (.500) in playoffs with Testaverde and Bledsoe; whereas BB was 21-28 (.429) and 0-0 in playoffs.

Matt Cassel

10-5 under Todd Haley (2010)...Cassel 28 years old
stats: 262-450, 3116 yards, 27 TD, 7 int, 93 QB rating, 26 sacks
*10-5 under Belichick (2008)...Cassel 26 years old
stats: 327-516, 3693, 21 TD, 11 int, 89.4 QB rating, 47 sacks

* What's important to note with going 10-5 under BB in 2008 had mostly to do with schedule. AFC East played the NFC West and AFC West as two divisions matched up against in which the Pats went 7-1 against, swept the Jets and split with the Bills and Dolphins. Only one team out of the 8 in the NFC and AFC West had a winning record which was the Cardinals who went 9-7. The reason the Cardinals went 9-7 is because they went 6-0 in their own division, 3-7 outside of their division. The two teams the Pats played against in the AFC based on how they fared the year before (Colts and Steelers) they lost to. The Pats still were 5 wins less than the year before, of course 16-0 is tough to duplicate regardless of circumstances. However, the ease of schedule is how the Patriots could go 11-5 without Brady just like it allowed Miami to go from 1-15 to 11-5 that year.

Jimmy Garoppolo

6-2 under Kyle Shanahan (2017-2018)...Garoppolo 26-27 years old (included going 5-0 after being traded to a 1-10 team in 2017)
2-0 under Belichick (2016)...Garappolo 25 years old

To claim that without BB there is no Brady, to me, embodies that notion that BB made Brady into a player he couldn't have been under a different coach. Factually, Belichick doesn't have a history of doing that. In fact, just the opposite when compared to some of the really good coaches in the league. And who in their right mind would think that Cassel and Garoppolo learned more from Belichick on how to play QB than from watching, being around and being in meetings with Brady?

Third flaw in the flaw is the assumption that without BB there is no Brady. It is far more likely without Brady there is no BB (as we think of BB) and Brady would still have managed to become an elite QB like Johnny Unitas or Drew Brees. When Brady played his first game in 2001 Belichick's record up to that point:

Cleveland (1991-95)...6-10, 7-9, 7-9, 11-5, 5-11 and Fired!
New England (2000-01)...5-11, 0-2 (Bledsoe gets injured), Brady leads the Pats to 14-3, including the playoffs and Super Bowl win.

If Brady wasn't already, well Brady (as seen above BB is not a great QB coach), and Belichick has to rely on a lesser QB if Bill Belichick's name was brought up most fans would think, "Who?" or at best he is a great DC, but lousy HC. The Pats only carried Bledsoe and Brady on their roster in 2001. They carried John Friez (13-25 as a career starter) and Michael Bishop (9 total passes in NFL career) in 2000.

So if the Pats don't have Brady and finish the way they were headed with Bledsoe in 2001, another 5 or so wins, would Belchick have been fired again at the end of the season? Would Belichick have ever been offered another HC job? Belichick had a 41-57 win/loss record and losing record in 6 of 7 seasons at that point when Brady started first game.

The last flaw of the flaw I see is there is a tendency to deny the impact some QBs have on other players as a coach themselves even though they aren't referred to as a coach. There is no doubt the best assistant coach Belichick ever had wears a #12 jersey and also plays QB on Sundays. All the reports, interviews, etc...I've read/seen about Brady in practice is he is a perfectionist and the most competitive person his teammates have seen. Similar to what was said about Michael Jordan. He demands perfection from himself and others. When a receiver doesn't run a route precisely, Brady will get on them or encourage better than any coach can do and have a greater impact than if it were coming from a coach. Peyton Manning was similar in that way. Do it right in practice and it will carry over to the game.

I would argue Brady has had more of an impact on Belichick being regarded as a great coach than Belichick has had on Brady being a great QB, by far. The win/losses support that.

Belichick as HC:

261-123 = Record overall
31-11 = Playoffs; 9 Super Bowl appearances; 6 Super Bowl titles

Belichick as HC without Brady starting QB:

54-63 (.462) = Overall record as HC without Brady
41-57 (.418) = Overall record as HC before Brady makes 1st start
36-44 (.450) = Record as Browns HC
18-19 (.486) = Record as Pats HC without Brady
1-1 (.500) = Playoffs (wildcard game win with Cleveland)

Belichick as HC with Brady starting QB:

207-60 (.775) = Record with Tom Brady
30-10 (.750) = Playoffs; 9 Super Bowl appearances; 6 Super Bowl titles

Coach Flores can do everything the "Patriot or Belichick way" but his success will in large part depend on whether Flores gets a QB that more resembles Tannehill or more resembles Brady. The former will result in a coaching change in a couple of years; the latter may result in a Super Bowl title or multiple. Of course, the Brady's don't come along often so we may get a QB somewhere in-between so I'm hoping Flores is just a better coach than BB.
 
Mach2 said:
After an exchange with another poster about the wisdom of using the BB blueprint of success, it occurred to me that there really is no such thing beyond the most basic level.

The Pats win at a very consistent pace. That's the only consistent thing about them. They are not even consistent in what they do week to week any more.

BB has done it with the long ball with Moss. He has done it with dink, and dunk slot guys. He has done it with TEs. He has done it with a power run game.

He has done it with a conventional 3-4, 4-3, 6 DBs, etc.

The key is flexibility, and I'm all in. It takes great coaching, and a lot of coachable players, but the results are unassailable.

Thoughts?
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I’ve had similar debates with other posters who did not think BB was a flexible coach. I mean this guy not only does not have a set way from year to year he can switch it up week to week and with different personnel. I remember one game a year or two ago he started a 4th string RB not due to injuries but matchups and that guy ran for 200 yards and hit the bench again for the rest of the season. BB’s flexibility is what makes him great. To those who would say it’s Brady, all we have to do is look to this last SB win, game plan to the opponents weakness and strengths and take advantage of matchups because it’s all about having at least 1 more point than your opponent.
 
the difference between Dolphins and N.E. last 14 yr. Brady and BB
BB one of the smart coach in this era. he know how to adapt/teach team ball. result 6 SB
Brady got better and wiser every yr. One of best qb in nfl history. under pressure. he know how close and win game on line.

dolphins is team that plays hard but fall short every yr. Poor GM, QB and Rookie Coach have kill this team of being good to great. not signing Drew Brese kill this team. we also miss on other great qb in nfl A\as well. if we can fix them 3 thing dolphins have bright future.
 
Mach2 said:
After an exchange with another poster about the wisdom of using the BB blueprint of success, it occurred to me that there really is no such thing beyond the most basic level.

The Pats win at a very consistent pace. That's the only consistent thing about them. They are not even consistent in what they do week to week any more.

BB has done it with the long ball with Moss. He has done it with dink, and dunk slot guys. He has done it with TEs. He has done it with a power run game.

He has done it with a conventional 3-4, 4-3, 6 DBs, etc.

The key is flexibility, and I'm all in. It takes great coaching, and a lot of coachable players, but the results are unassailable.

Thoughts?
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I don't think we're going to see "the patriot way" like some might think. Brian Flores is different in that he seems to want to do things his way but lean on the experiences he's learned from his 15 years in the Patriots organization. He has certainly talked about wanting to be flexible on offense and defense. 3-4 or 4-3 will be dictated by the opponent, could be week-to-week, could be play-by-play. Chad O'Shea has said the same about how he will run the offense. The key will be getting players smart enough, and willing enough to put in the time to make this work. That's the one thing no one has been able to duplicate because it's a difficult culture to manifest. Not just finding the players but getting everyone to buy in even when it may not be working early on in the process.

I will say this though...I was indifferent to Flores being hired, maybe even a little against it because he was coming from the Patriots and the track record of those assistant coaches under Belichick has been pretty bad. Flores has said all the right things...that stuff doesn't sway me, all coaches talk the talk...every single one we've had since Shula certainly has. Flores has, however, put together an impressive staff. Better than Philbin, Gase, Cameron, and Wannstedt...maybe better than Jimmy Johnson and Nick Saban's staff. Johnson's offensive staff was not that good and neither was Saban's. Flores seems to be humble enough to know he needs veteran coaches on both sides of the ball and guys who are unselfish enough as a staff that they're willing to listen to other coaches and take advice putting a game plan together. That's an encouraging sign and something Gase was never going to do.

The other thing about Flores is that there has to be something about him as a man and a leader for him to pull so many coaches from New England to follow him here to Miami. Some of them got promotions but at least one of them just made a lateral move. That to me speak volumes about Flores as a leader and a man...someone people are willing to follow even when it doesn't benefit them by status or moving up the coaching ranks. I can say I've not been overly optimistic about any coach we've hired since Jimmy Johnson but Flores might have something beyond the X's and O's that none of these other coaches had.
 
AdamC13 said:
Belichick as HC without Brady starting QB:

54-63 (.462) = Overall record as HC without Brady
41-57 (.418) = Overall record as HC before Brady makes 1st start
36-44 (.450) = Record as Browns HC
18-19 (.486) = Record as Pats HC without Brady
1-1 (.500) = Playoffs (wildcard game win with Cleveland)
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To be a little more accurate...Belichick is 5-13 with Bledsoe as his starter (of that 18-19 record), which happened in the first 18 regular season games as the head coach of the Pats. 13-6 with Cassell (10-5), Garappolo (2-0), and Brissett (1-1) as starters.
 
datruth55 said:
To be a little more accurate...Belichick is 5-13 with Bledsoe as his starter (of that 18-19 record), which happened in the first 18 regular season games as the head coach of the Pats. 13-6 with Cassell (10-5), Garappolo (2-0), and Brissett (1-1) as starters.
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That's not being more accurate, that is being more detailed for that factual statement.

And if you check the individual QBs you will see that I posted the records of Bledsoe, Cassell and Garappolo under Belichick. The only one I didn't is Brissett because he hasn't played under other coaches to compare how well the team has fared with him at QB.
 
datruth55 said:
To be a little more accurate...Belichick is 5-13 with Bledsoe as his starter (of that 18-19 record), which happened in the first 18 regular season games as the head coach of the Pats. 13-6 with Cassell (10-5), Garappolo (2-0), and Brissett (1-1) as starters.
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Don't want to debate 'Brady or BB.' I will make a comment, only for those who still think QBWINS. I'd like to see the NE record with Gronk/Edleman or both out, or with most of the OL out. Fans know the answer in general. Brady and BB are HOF, but don't discount the 'team' aspect.

Which gets me to the 'Patriot way.' It is nearly impossible to stop NE for an entire game. They respond very quickly with adjustments. It can be done, but rarely. THAT is the type of thing I want to see from Flores. Adjustments, game plans, mismatches, flexibility. It SHOULD be the 'way' of every team, but, sadly, it isn't. Fans saw how well the Rams adjusted in the SB . . . NOT. Or the Chiefs in the playoffs. Call it whatever you want, those are traits of a winner.
 
AdamC13 said:
That's not being more accurate, that is being more detailed for that factual statement.

And if you check the individual QBs you will see that I posted the records of Bledsoe, Cassell and Garappolo under Belichick. The only one I didn't is Brissett because he hasn't played under other coaches to compare how well the team has fared with him at QB.
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So you compare Bledsoe as overall records with coaches, but with cassell you just post his one good year? And Brissett started 15 games with the colts.

I think you are in denial about how great of a coach belichick actually is. He is the greatest coach of all time.
 
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