Top WR's in the NFL vs. Edwards/Williams | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Top WR's in the NFL vs. Edwards/Williams

Does anyone know what ANquan Boldins official 40 was? He was pushing the late end of the first round but got the bounce I believe, because of a poor 40.

Still, he won the OROY and went to the Pro Bowl.
 
He ran between a 4.7 and a 4.8 in the 40. On a good day on a fast track I believe he could probably run a 4.6 something.
 
ckparrothead said:
So I don't get it, you've clearly labeled a bunch of guys who you don't consider to be #1 WRs in the NFL (even if they currently are, and have been serving that role for quite some time), you labeled a bunch of guys who you don't consider to be perennial pro bowlers (even if they've made the pro bowl, perennially), who ASIDE FROM RANDY MOSS, do you consider to be one of the few guys in the league worthy of basing an offense around Caneaddict?

You listed Terrrell Owens, who does not run a fast 40 time.

You listed Chad Johnson, who has been shown to in fact not have run close to a 4.40 in the 40.

Marvin Harrison, by the way, is not very big, and not very fast. He would struggle to run in the 4.4 range, though I believe he could do it (as could and did Braylon Edwards).

You listed ANDRE JOHNSON?? Yet without flinching you toss away the likes of Joe Horn, Jimmy Smith, Hines Ward, Keyshawn Johnson, and Eric Moulds? My god dude...

And by your own little rules and rationalizations, I think we can toss Javon Walker out as a "one year wonder"

So basically, all you have left is Torry Holt (who I'll agree is blazing) and Randy Moss (as fast as they come) on your side. Yet other people have come up with Chad Johnson, Terrell Owens (he's not on your side, he runs no faster than Braylon Edwards, PERIOD), Joe Horn (average of 1250+ yards & 9 TDs over last 5 years), Eric Moulds (average 1100 yards & 6 TDs over the last 7 years), Hines Ward (average 1125 yard & 8 TDs over the last 4 years), Muhsin Muhammad (who ACTUALLY had his break out year in 1999 & 2000, but followed up with a bunch of injury-plagued years in which his career was in question), don't forget Amani Toomer who had his first down year after 5 straight years with 1000+ yards and 5+ TDs, and of course Derrick Mason.

I mean dude. Admit it, your point has been pretty overwhelmed by a crowd of productive, pro bowl caliber WRs, who run slower than Braylon Edwards.
Click to expand...

I've already admitted that a few of the above names DO Fit the criteria.

Here are some guys I consider #1 material TODAY (I keep mentioning TODAY and people keep bringing up player's history).

#1 Moss
#2 TO (I'll acquiesce to the fact that he isn't faster than Edwards, probably equal)
#3 Harrison (don't know his speed but he's fast)
#4 Andre Johnson (definitely fits the ideal mold)
#5 Hines Ward (probably slower than 4.4)
#6 Torry Holt (Runs 4.4)
#7 Javon Walker (up and coming #1 receiver, I think he's fast but obviously I've been wrong before)
#8 Roy Williams (a beast, don't know his 40)
#9 Chad Johnson (slower than 4.4)
#10 Muhsin Muhammed (slower than Braylon)
#11 Joe Horn (He's a notch below in my book)
#12 Steve Smith (Just really like this guy, blazing speed)

I don't respect Moulds as a legitimate #1 even though he's played in that role. Too inconsistent - look at his annual stats. As you see Horn is just outside my top 10.

So a little less than half of the guys are faster than Edwards. Well, I think this has DISPROVED my theory. There were a few guys that I thought were faster than they actually are.

Considering this info, I wouldn't not take Edwards based on speed.

Yeah, look at that, I can actually admit being wrong when facts are presented. Thanks guys, I love being more knowledgeable.
 
caneaddict said:
I've already admitted that a few of the above names DO Fit the criteria.

Here are some guys I consider #1 material TODAY (I keep mentioning TODAY and people keep bringing up player's history).

#1 Moss
#2 TO (I'll acquiesce to the fact that he isn't faster than Edwards, probably equal)
#3 Harrison (don't know his speed but he's fast)
#4 Andre Johnson (definitely fits the ideal mold)
#5 Hines Ward (probably slower than 4.4)
#6 Torry Holt (Runs 4.4)
#7 Javon Walker (up and coming #1 receiver, I think he's fast but obviously I've been wrong before)
#8 Roy Williams (a beast, don't know his 40)
#9 Chad Johnson (slower than 4.4)
#10 Muhsin Muhammed (slower than Braylon)
#11 Joe Horn (He's a notch below in my book)
#12 Steve Smith (Just really like this guy, blazing speed)

I don't respect Moulds as a legitimate #1 even though he's played in that role. Too inconsistent - look at his annual stats. As you see Horn is just outside my top 10.

So about 4 guys out of the top 11 are faster than Edwards. Well, I think this has DISPROVED my theory. There were a few guys that I thought were faster than they actually are.

Considering this info, I wouldn't not take Edwards based on speed.

Yeah, look at that, I can actually admit being wrong when facts are presented. Thanks guys, I love being more knowledgeable.
Click to expand...

Chad Johnson should be rated much higher IMO. I would take him over any WR not named Moss or Owens. Harrison is good but I don't think he's a "game-changer," like Moss, Owens, and Johnson. This is just my thinking but the Bengals offense is gonna be scary if Palmer stays healthy.
 
djfresh47 said:
Chad Johnson should be rated much higher IMO. I would take him over any WR not named Moss or Owens. Harrison is good but I don't think he's a "game-changer," like Moss, Owens, and Johnson. This is just my thinking but the Bengals offense is gonna be scary if Palmer stays healthy.
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I could see that. Numbers 3-9 on my list are pretty close together so I can see anyone make a claim for any of them to be rated anywhere between #3-9. However, having said that, I would definitely take Andre Johnson over Chad Johnson and personally think that Roy Williams will be better than Chad. For me, picking between Javon Walker and Chad Johnson is a close toss up.
 
caneaddict said:
I've already admitted that a few of the above names DO Fit the criteria.

Here are some guys I consider #1 material TODAY (I keep mentioning TODAY and people keep bringing up player's history).

#1 Moss
#2 TO (I'll acquiesce to the fact that he isn't faster than Edwards, probably equal)
#3 Harrison (don't know his speed but he's fast)
#4 Andre Johnson (definitely fits the ideal mold)
#5 Hines Ward (probably slower than 4.4)
#6 Torry Holt (Runs 4.4)
#7 Javon Walker (up and coming #1 receiver, I think he's fast but obviously I've been wrong before)
#8 Roy Williams (a beast, don't know his 40)
#9 Chad Johnson (slower than 4.4)
#10 Muhsin Muhammed (slower than Braylon)
#11 Joe Horn (He's a notch below in my book)
#12 Steve Smith (Just really like this guy, blazing speed).
Click to expand...

Chad Johnson is top 5.
Steve Smith should not even be on the list.
Reggie Wayne should be on the list.
Andre Johnson has had 1 good season and you think he's the #4 receiver??
Brandon Stokely and Drew Bennett had better seasons last year then Johnson.

Your point is flawed. Nice try though.
 
Larry Fitzgerald - 3rd pick overall in a great draft class - 4.53 http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2004/draft/players/46239.html
Anquan Boldin - Will be a top receiver in the league to prevent an argument, but I think he already is. Catching 100 passes in Arizona is no small feet. No QB, no running game, plus they do have other targets to pass to. - 4.73
http://nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/7286047

Roy Williams - 4.48. This is not slow but according to your theory Braylon is not that fast.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2004/draft/players/47075.html

Tory Holt - 4.5. Try and argue this. And he is 30 pounds less than Williams.
http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives/draft_1998/widereceivers.asp#TORRY%20HOLT

Plaxico Burress - 4.6 (i think this was an estimate they made).
http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives/draft_1999/scoutingreports_wr.asp#WR%20PLAXICO%20BURRESS

Jerry Porter - 4.55. yes I know he is not a top receiver.
http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives/draft_1999/scoutingreports_wr.asp#WR%20JERRY%20PORTER

Reggie Wayne - 4.53.
http://www.btgsports.com/draft_2001_off_prospects.htm

But if you really want to know how much a 40 time determines the kind of player you are you should read this article.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_10_228/ai_114086663
It states about, Derrick Mason, Terrell Owens, Jerry Rice, Plax. Who all had 40 times above 4.6. But that never determined their playing speed. One thing about Owens, is when that guy catches the ball in the open field he jukes, twists, accelerates, runs past guys. But he neve did run a good 40 time.
 
After looking at all the surprising times of the 40's of other receivers could anyone fill me in on the 40 time of Chambers and Gordon before they got drafted?
 
I've already admitted that a few of the above names DO Fit the criteria.

Here are some guys I consider #1 material TODAY (I keep mentioning TODAY and people keep bringing up player's history).

#1 Moss
#2 TO (I'll acquiesce to the fact that he isn't faster than Edwards, probably equal)
#3 Harrison (don't know his speed but he's fast)
#4 Andre Johnson (definitely fits the ideal mold)
#5 Hines Ward (probably slower than 4.4)
#6 Torry Holt (Runs 4.4)
#7 Javon Walker (up and coming #1 receiver, I think he's fast but obviously I've been wrong before)
#8 Roy Williams (a beast, don't know his 40)
#9 Chad Johnson (slower than 4.4)
#10 Muhsin Muhammed (slower than Braylon)
#11 Joe Horn (He's a notch below in my book)
#12 Steve Smith (Just really like this guy, blazing speed)

I don't respect Moulds as a legitimate #1 even though he's played in that role. Too inconsistent - look at his annual stats. As you see Horn is just outside my top 10.

So a little less than half of the guys are faster than Edwards. Well, I think this has DISPROVED my theory. There were a few guys that I thought were faster than they actually are.

Considering this info, I wouldn't not take Edwards based on speed.

Yeah, look at that, I can actually admit being wrong when facts are presented. Thanks guys, I love being more knowledgeable.
Click to expand...

I don't know that its even fair to say that Terrell Owens is as fast as Braylon, because I think Braylon is faster. He certainly runs a faster 40 than TO, that much we ABSOLUTELY know for certain. And, once you start talking about "2nd gear" and stuff, you are getting away from your point and talking about game speed vs. straight line speed. Anquan Boldin runs slower than Mike Williams, but has great "game speed" or as you might call it "2nd gear"

Here's your list with corrections for these guys ACTUAL speed in relation to Braylon Edwards...
#1. Moss. Faster than Braylon
#2. Owens. Slower than Braylon. Period.
#3. Harrison. Probably just as fast as Braylon. NOT a burner.
#4. Andre Johnson. Yes, faster than Braylon.
#5. Hines Ward. Same speed as Braylon.
#6. Torry Holt. Legitimately faster than Braylon.
#7. Javon Walker. No faster than Braylon, may be slower, or may be just as fast.
#8. Roy Williams. Faster than Braylon Edwards.
#9. Chad Johnson. Slower than Braylon Edwards.
#10. Muhsin Muhammad. Slower than Braylon. Much slower.
#11. Joe Horn. He could be a half notch faster than Braylon actually, on a good day.
#12. Steve Smith. Definitely faster.


Now, here's who I would actually call the top 12 WRs in the league.

#1. Randy Moss
#2. Terrell Owens
#3. Torry Holt
#4. Marvin Harrison
#5. Joe Horn
#6. Hines Ward
#7. Javon Walker
#8. Chad Johnson
#9. Michael Clayton
#10. Andre Johnson
#11. Muhsin Muhammad
#12. Isaac Bruce

And in any given year, Derrick Mason, Darrell Jackson, Rod Smith, Deion Branch, Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Marty Booker, Anquan Boldin, Jerry Porter, Plaxico Burress, Jimmy Smith, Reggie Wayne, Drew Bennett, Eric Moulds, Laveraneous Coles, Amani Toomer, and Chris Chambers may overtake any one of the guys listed above, except for the top 4, Moss, Owens, Holt, and Harrison. I consider those four names to be the premier WRs in the NFL today for their consistency and game-changing ability.

Overall I feel it's not best to rank these guys, because their situations all change so often, and its hard to get through all that to get a consistent ranking. I think you can group these guys. The top group would definitely have Moss, Owens, Holt, and Harrison, if you asked me. Then after that, I would have a group of about 20 to 25 guys that in any given year may rank highly depending on their situation.

Note: Of the 29 guys I've listed, I would have only Moss, Holt, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Laveraneous Coles, Jerry Porter, and Chris Chambers as definitely faster than Braylon Edwards.
 
PhinsPhan said:
Larry Fitzgerald - 3rd pick overall in a great draft class - 4.53 http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2004/draft/players/46239.html
Anquan Boldin - Will be a top receiver in the league to prevent an argument, but I think he already is. Catching 100 passes in Arizona is no small feet. No QB, no running game, plus they do have other targets to pass to. - 4.73
http://nfl.com/nflnetwork/story/7286047

Roy Williams - 4.48. This is not slow but according to your theory Braylon is not that fast.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/2004/draft/players/47075.html

Tory Holt - 4.5. Try and argue this. And he is 30 pounds less than Williams.
http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives/draft_1998/widereceivers.asp#TORRY%20HOLT

Plaxico Burress - 4.6 (i think this was an estimate they made).
http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives/draft_1999/scoutingreports_wr.asp#WR%20PLAXICO%20BURRESS

Jerry Porter - 4.55. yes I know he is not a top receiver.
http://archive.profootballweekly.com/content/archives/draft_1999/scoutingreports_wr.asp#WR%20JERRY%20PORTER

Reggie Wayne - 4.53.
http://www.btgsports.com/draft_2001_off_prospects.htm

But if you really want to know how much a 40 time determines the kind of player you are you should read this article.
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_10_228/ai_114086663
It states about, Derrick Mason, Terrell Owens, Jerry Rice, Plax. Who all had 40 times above 4.6. But that never determined their playing speed. One thing about Owens, is when that guy catches the ball in the open field he jukes, twists, accelerates, runs past guys. But he neve did run a good 40 time.
Click to expand...

I know that I have seen Roy Williams linked with times faster than 4.48, but once again the flaw with these 40 times is they are different on everyone's stopwatch. There is no definitive "he ran a 4.48" out there, because it's all according to who. After all, many people still believe Ronnie Brown ran a 4.37 when the electronic sensors had him at 4.48, the same time that Cadillac Williams ran.

And if Jerry Porter ever ran a 4.55, it was on a pretty bad day for him. He's been clocked in the 4.4 range pretty consistently. So has Torry Holt.
 
ckparrothead said:
I don't know that its even fair to say that Terrell Owens is as fast as Braylon, because I think Braylon is faster. He certainly runs a faster 40 than TO, that much we ABSOLUTELY know for certain. And, once you start talking about "2nd gear" and stuff, you are getting away from your point and talking about game speed vs. straight line speed. Anquan Boldin runs slower than Mike Williams, but has great "game speed" or as you might call it "2nd gear"

Here's your list with corrections for these guys ACTUAL speed in relation to Braylon Edwards...
#1. Moss. Faster than Braylon
#2. Owens. Slower than Braylon. Period.
#3. Harrison. Probably just as fast as Braylon. NOT a burner.
#4. Andre Johnson. Yes, faster than Braylon.
#5. Hines Ward. Same speed as Braylon.
#6. Torry Holt. Legitimately faster than Braylon.
#7. Javon Walker. No faster than Braylon, may be slower, or may be just as fast.
#8. Roy Williams. Faster than Braylon Edwards.
#9. Chad Johnson. Slower than Braylon Edwards.
#10. Muhsin Muhammad. Slower than Braylon. Much slower.
#11. Joe Horn. He could be a half notch faster than Braylon actually, on a good day.
#12. Steve Smith. Definitely faster.


Now, here's who I would actually call the top 12 WRs in the league.

#1. Randy Moss
#2. Terrell Owens
#3. Torry Holt
#4. Marvin Harrison
#5. Joe Horn
#6. Hines Ward
#7. Javon Walker
#8. Chad Johnson
#9. Michael Clayton
#10. Andre Johnson
#11. Muhsin Muhammad
#12. Isaac Bruce

And in any given year, Derrick Mason, Darrell Jackson, Rod Smith, Deion Branch, Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Marty Booker, Anquan Boldin, Jerry Porter, Plaxico Burress, Jimmy Smith, Reggie Wayne, Drew Bennett, Eric Moulds, Laveraneous Coles, Amani Toomer, and Chris Chambers may overtake any one of the guys listed above, except for the top 4, Moss, Owens, Holt, and Harrison. I consider those four names to be the premier WRs in the NFL today for their consistency and game-changing ability.

Overall I feel it's not best to rank these guys, because their situations all change so often, and its hard to get through all that to get a consistent ranking. I think you can group these guys. The top group would definitely have Moss, Owens, Holt, and Harrison, if you asked me. Then after that, I would have a group of about 20 to 25 guys that in any given year may rank highly depending on their situation.

Note: Of the 29 guys I've listed, I would have only Moss, Holt, Andre Johnson, Steve Smith, Santana Moss, Laveraneous Coles, Jerry Porter, and Chris Chambers as definitely faster than Braylon Edwards.
Click to expand...

According to your descriptions of the guys on my list; Braylon is definitely faster than only 1 of my top 8 and 3 of the top 12. It's all moot anyway, I've already admitted that, after hearing the times for some of the guys, Braylon is fast enough to be a superstar (when combined with all of his other great attributes). In other words, if he fails to be a superstar, it won't be his speed that held him back.

I still stick to my list of the top guys. That's the order I would pick them in if I were starting a team today.
 
HVACservice said:
By the way Braylon Edwards has NEVER BEEN ARRESTED.

And he returned for his senior season.

Those two things speak volumes.

IMO.
Click to expand...

AGREE, THATS RARE... not being arrested wow :p
 
caneaddict said:
DonShula-
That was a great link. Thanks. How did you find that link? I went to Kiper's main site and couldn't find any links for other years including 2001 so how did you get to it?
Click to expand...

I searched Chad Johnson combine notes or something like that in Yahoo and that link popped up. I was trying to find other years but I couldnt
 
HVACservice said:
I was simply addressing the character issue that all of us have become somewhat wary of.

I think the fact that he returned for his senior year and resisted Millions from the NFL is a good sign as well.

But I know you don`t like Edwards regardless of the obvious production on AND off the field.

But hey.....to each his own.
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I agree off the field issues/character is important. That is a big reason why I like Ronnie Brown more than Benson. I think Edwards helped himself by coming back for his senior year, last years draft was stacked at WR and he had a lot of question marks with his maturity and attitude. He wouldnt have gone top 5 last year, so he made the right choice to stay in school. It isnt like with Leinart where he was definitely going top 5 and went back. I dont like Edwards, but if we take him I hope I am wrong about everything Ive said about him.
 
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