Tua or Burrow?

[Pachyderm_Wave]

You could debate if the first 3 points had merit. I'm sure some agree and others don't.

But where you lost credibility in your arguments was this:
The best QB and prospect in this draft will be drafted 1st, we'll see who that is. Tua is a very good QB, he's just not as good as Burrow.

That's saying Trubisky (#2) was a better prospect than Mahomes (#10) or Watson (#12) when many did not like him at all.

Organization fall in love with certain players all the time......and many organizations fail just as much, if not more, than they succeed on draft picks. They go for certain traits, certain metrics, certain physical parameters, etc.

I guarantee you one team has Herbert #1 over Tua and Burrow. If that team was picking 1st and like him the way the Bears liked Trubisky, it doesn't make him the best prospect.

He lost credibility when he said Womack was a quality starter. Womack was not a quality starter and hasn’t even been a starter since 2017.

What makes an offensive line is experience and continuity. 3/5 of LSU’s offensive line were Seniors. The other two were Juniors. Alabama was starting a true freshman at LG in Evan Neal and finally settled on an often injured transfer from FSU (Dickerson) at Center after rotating him in and out with another inexperienced player in Chris Owens. Nevermind Deonte Brown was suspended the first 4 games and didn’t play, which is why the often injured transfer from FSU (Dickerson) was playing guard until Brown came back. Brown’s suspension went back to the year before which is why he didn’t play at all against Oklahoma or Clemson in the playoffs. He even mentioned Leatherwood playing guard while Jonah Williams was at left tackle in 2018.

No offensive line in the SEC has been through more flux than Alabama’s since Tua took over.

He also understands that Joe Brady is the one that brought the concepts to LSU’s offense that led to the offensive explosion they had. They were finally able to highlight the skill position talent that was already there. They didn’t just suddenly learn how to play. Ja’marr Chase was recruited by everybody in the country. So was Terrace Marshall - including Alabama. These are 4 & 5 star players. He’s just being obtuse because it works on message boards.

If not for Joe Brady, LSU would’ve still been using the same personnel groupings and same predictable plays with Ensminger.

Which is why they had lost 8 in a row to Alabama before this year. It wasn’t a lack of talent. It was lack of innovation to take advantage of their talent. LSU and Alabama recruit the same players. Always have and always will.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Joe Brady’s concepts are proven in the NFL. That’s why Clyde Edwards-Helaire’s catches out of the backfield went up 400% when Joe Brady arrived. The same system that allowed for Alvin Kamara to catch over 80 passes a year out of the backfield both years Brady was an offensive assistant with the Saints.

The fact that the play caller (Ensminger) and the QB (Burrow) didn’t change is only illustrating the point. They both put up a goose egg together against Alabama.

What changed were the concepts under Joe Brady. It resulted in the same offense Alabama had been running since Mike Locksley took the play calling duties away from Brian Daboll when he left for Buffalo. An offense capable of taking advantage of all the skill position talent. As opposed to just running the same damn toss play to Leonard Fournette, Derrius Guice, or Nick Broussette 30 times for 30 yards.

You’d think the Panthers would’ve hired Ensminger instead of Joe Brady.

 

[Cheetah]

Joe Brady’s concepts are proven in the NFL. That’s why Clyde Edwards-Helaire’s catches out of the backfield went up 400% when Joe Brady arrived. The same system that allowed for Alvin Kamara to catch over 80 passes a year out of the backfield both years Brady was an offensive assistant with the Saints.

The fact that the play caller (Ensminger) and the QB (Burrow) didn’t change is only illustrating the point. They both put up a goose egg together against Alabama.

What changed were the concepts under Joe Brady. It resulted in the same offense Alabama had been running since Mike Locksley took the play calling duties away from Brian Daboll when he left for Buffalo. An offense capable of taking advantage of all the skill position talent. As opposed to just running the same damn toss play to Leonard Fournette, Derrius Guice, or Nick Broussette 30 times for 30 yards.

You’d think the Panthers would’ve hired Ensminger instead of Joe Brady.

By this logic you are saying Burrow finally got to show off his talents instead of handing the ball off 30X a game. I mean that is what you typed. So while Tua was able to take advantage of his weapons the whole time Burrow just got to.

As for weapons Tua had Irv Smith at TE last year and he is a much better prospect than Moss. I mean Moss is nothing special. The WR foursome at Bama is also much more heralded than the three you mentioned at LSU with Jeudy clearly the best while maybe Chase proves to be at that level next yr. Top to bottom Bama has better skill guys. I am sorry but Jefferson is a former 3 star WR.

The YAC was not addressed I mean you want to talk about throwing to a back in the backfield which Hellaire did 55 times but I mean that is what 4 catches a game? How many quick hitters did Tua hit on? Look up Harris he caught a few balls out of the backfield.

To me it's what these guys did with these opportunities. Bama was ranked #1 preseason for a reason and LSU was not but Burrow did what Tua has not done and that is carve up defenses such as UGA and Clemson. Tua had to be pulled against UGA for Hurts.

Last but not least you pull Burrow out and I guarantee their b/u does not deliver what Jones does. Obviously Tua is superior than Jones but Tua goes down and Jones still puts up All Conference stats.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

By this logic you are saying Burrow finally got to show off his talents instead of handing the ball off 30X a game. I mean that is what you typed. So while Tua was able to take advantage of his weapons the whole time Burrow just got to.

As for weapons Tua had Irv Smith at TE last year and he is a much better prospect than Moss. I mean Moss is nothing special. The WR foursome at Bama is also much more heralded than the three you mentioned at LSU with Jeudy clearly the best while maybe Chase proves to be at that level next yr. Top to bottom Bama has better skill guys. I am sorry but Jefferson is a former 3 star WR.

The YAC was not addressed I mean you want to talk about throwing to a back in the backfield which Hellaire did 55 times but I mean that is what 4 catches a game? How many quick hitters did Tua hit on? Look up Harris he caught a few balls out of the backfield.

To me it's what these guys did with these opportunities. Bama was ranked #1 preseason for a reason and LSU was not but Burrow did what Tua has not done and that is carve up defenses such as UGA and Clemson. Tua had to be pulled against UGA for Hurts.

Last but not least you pull Burrow out and I guarantee their b/u does not deliver what Jones does. Obviously Tua is superior than Jones but Tua goes down and Jones still puts up All Conference stats.

I’m saying Joe Brady’s offense allowed LSU’s skill position talent to be highlighted. You skipped over Terrace Marshall being a 5 star. We recruited him too. Any of those guys would start at Alabama. They would’ve produced sooner at Alabama because LSU hadn’t yet implemented an offense capable of taking advantage of them. You either get it or you don’t.

Justin Jefferson can play. Mark Ingram was a 3 star and won a Heisman Trophy.

Joe Burrow didn’t face nearly the same caliber of Georgia or Clemson defenses that Tua faced. I’m not going to detail it for you. You just either get it or you don’t.

Tua was not pulled for Jalen Hurts against Georgia. He got his already injured ankle stepped on by Jonah Williams and had to leave the game due to injury.

[Removed by staff]

 

[Cheetah]

I’m saying Joe Brady’s offense allowed LSU’s skill position talent to be highlighted. You skipped over Terrace Marshall being a 5 star. We recruited him too. Any of those guys would start at Alabama. They would’ve produced sooner at Alabama because LSU hadn’t yet implemented an offense capable of taking advantage of them. You either get it or you don’t.

Justin Jefferson can play. Mark Ingram was a 3 star and won a Heisman Trophy.

Joe Burrow didn’t face nearly the same caliber of Georgia or Clemson defenses that Tua faced. I’m not going to detail it for you. You just either get it or you don’t.

Tua was not pulled for Jalen Hurts against Georgia. He got his already injured ankle stepped on by Jonah Williams and had to leave the game due to injury.

Your posts are just a series of fallacies one after another.

[Removed by Staff] I understand you know more than most n this board but for you to say someones arguments are foolish when you either deftly avoid certain questions or present something with no more than your opinion. If someone posts a FACT on here you somehow like to twist it to fit your agenda.

I don’t care that Jefferson was a 3 star. It wasn’t the point. Bama has more elite guys at the positio. Maybe Burrow made him look good.

True enough the Clemson D of this year while not as talented was still rated the BEST defense in the land. Venables is still there and they will always be formidable with 5 stars everywhere. UGA I can’t speak to that but it carried them and Fromms noodle arm.

Question. Was Bama behind Georgia when Hurts played against them? I mean did Tua “get hurt” while he was losing to them?
One more. Care to address the YAC from Bama WR’s?

I can’t wait until next year when Bama is #1 or #2 with Mac Jones instead of Tua running the show and Bama once again puts up video numbers.

Thanks in advance. One more thing I like Tua but I can see that both guys could be exceptional why is it hard to say Burrow could be better?

We won’t know **** for a few years. So many variables, support, personnel, coaching. Is Mahomes this damn good without Reid? Jackson without Baltimore’s OC?

 

[RobertHorry]

I'm not sure if I agree with Slimm's view on Grier. I'm going to give him this draft to make up for some of his atrocities, but he has done well in stockpiling picks for this draft.

I do agree that Tua is a better prospect than Burrow. How is this even a question? Do people here even watch the tape or see the type of offense Brady runs at LSU? He has someone running open at every level and has top tier receivers on top of that. Not only that, but watch Burrow's throws. How is this not pick 6 mania in the NFL?

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I'm not sure if I agree with Slimm's view on Grier. I'm going to give him this draft to make up for some of his atrocities, but he has done well in stockpiling picks for this draft.

I do agree that Tua is a better prospect than Burrow. How is this even a question? Do people here even watch the tape or see the type of offense Brady runs at LSU? He has someone running open at every level and has top tier receivers on top of that. Not only that, but watch Burrow's throws. How is this not pick 6 mania in the NFL?

Chris Grier is one of the top 3 biggest frauds in the league and wouldn’t know an offensive lineman or a pass rusher if they walked up and pissed in his pocket protector. To watch him piss away all these draft picks is going to be painful for a whole lot of y’all. Of course it don’t bother me, I just laugh.

I’ve already bet $100 they’ll never win a playoff game with him as GM. Ain’t nobody forgot.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

The other two are Baker Mayfield and Adam Gase.

 

[Birdmond]

for me it’s Burrow, Herbert , Love and then Tua. But if Tua was not a human potato chip I’d probably have him at one. That being said if both were available at 5 I’d take Burrow if that’s only option. The thing is if both were available at 5 there would be some wicked trade down options where you could still get the QB not chosen at 5.

 

[nick1]

Can we all agree that both burrow and Tua are elite projects? If you can’t agree that then idk what you are watching and you are most likely biased by fandom

 

[PSU Cane]

I'm not sure if I agree with Slimm's view on Grier. I'm going to give him this draft to make up for some of his atrocities, but he has done well in stockpiling picks for this draft.

I do agree that Tua is a better prospect than Burrow. How is this even a question? Do people here even watch the tape or see the type of offense Brady runs at LSU? He has someone running open at every level and has top tier receivers on top of that. Not only that, but watch Burrow's throws. How is this not pick 6 mania in the NFL?

I don't have faith in Grier. He's been with this FO for a while and has been directly involved with bad trades and poor signings. Even if we draft a few nice players this year, i'm going to think that was the Flores influence.

Each time a Free Agency period or Draft comes around, i don't see a cohesive "vision" of the franchise with the actions. It's always looks disjointed. And as Slimm mentioned, i'm TERRIFIED this guy is going to get fleeced in trades on Draft Day and give up half of what we have......i can sense a Leonte Carroo trade all over again.

 

[Bumpus]

Gentlemen, let’s all try to learn something about acceptable behavior, the TOS, and you ... from the posters that are currently not permitted in this thread. Thank you.

-Bumpus, FH Admin

 

[EireTiger]

You could debate if the first 3 points had merit. I'm sure some agree and others don't.

But where you lost credibility in your arguments was this:
The best QB and prospect in this draft will be drafted 1st, we'll see who that is. Tua is a very good QB, he's just not as good as Burrow.

That's saying Trubisky (#2) was a better prospect than Mahomes (#10) or Watson (#12) when many did not like him at all.

Organization fall in love with certain players all the time......and many organizations fail just as much, if not more, than they succeed on draft picks. They go for certain traits, certain metrics, certain physical parameters, etc.

I guarantee you one team has Herbert #1 over Tua and Burrow. If that team was picking 1st and like him the way the Bears liked Trubisky, it doesn't make him the best prospect.

The point wan't that whoever gets drafted first is the better QB, my point was that the better QB in this instance will be drafted first. While both are good QBs, Burrow is the better QB. Better against pressure, better against tougher competition, performed at the highest level ever. If he had been at LSU for 6 months prior to the 2018 season you probably would have seen elite results that year too. As I stated previously, Burrow was performing at an elite level toward the end of the 2018 season, Brady wasn't even there yet, Edwards-Helaire, Chase and Marshall weren't even starting.

It's funny to see these Alabama fans now saying they don't have better talent than every other team in the NCAA. Kudos to Saban for recruiting the most talented team in college football, his QB benefited from it more than any other QB in the draft. It doesn't mean he's not a good QB, just not as good as the top QB in this year's draft. I expect the Dolphins to draft Tua at 5 and am excited for next season.

 

[jimthefin]

I am willing to Grier the benefit of the doubt.

He did OK with his first Draft in charge and did a good job compiling Draft assets and had a pretty good FA period.

This Draft may make or break him since they have such an opportunity to find their QB and also add a lot of young talent.

I can't say he has my full and unabiding trust, but I am not worried that he is going to F it up.

 

[Feverdream]

One of the arguments that many here make is that the single best way to make sure that you have long-standing, year in and year out, ability to compete for the playoffs is to draft a QB. They say that this makes more sense than trying to build a stellar defense or to draft a Chase Young type player... and there is some truth to this.

But then, many of the same people will pivot to advocating that we draft an undersized and injury prone QB.

...and I'm left with... WHAT? Hold the phone, you just argued that you wanted the best chance at long-standing competitiveness, and now you are arguing for a player with a much lower chance of playing until he's 40... or even 32?

There is a singular lack of consistency in their logic. It's almost like they don't even care if their two arguments are mutually exclusive. I think they should run for Congress.