Veteran NFL personnel executives assess wisdom of the Miami Dolphins’ plan for rebuild | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Veteran NFL personnel executives assess wisdom of the Miami Dolphins’ plan for rebuild

He says we shouldn't have traded Tunsil then says the Texans gave up too much?

Good trade then.
 
We are going to lead the league in sacks allowed and the LT we draft won't be near Tunsils caliber (as there's a 50/50 that all draft picks don't pan out).
 
srp1979 said:
We are going to lead the league in sacks allowed and the LT we draft won't be near Tunsils caliber (as there's a 50/50 that all draft picks don't pan out).
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I honestly don't get the logic behind post like this...When Tannehill was here with Tunsil protecting him we were STILL at the top or close to being the leader in that category...


I don't know let's see between my choices:

1) Continue to have Tunsil and others and be near the top in sacks etc AND have almost no draft/cap resources to do anything about it

or

2) Not have Tunsil and others and be near the top in sacks etc AND have a bounty of drafts/cap to possibly do something about it..

Which is the definition of insanity and which is the definition of hope?
 
Digital said:
Despite the talk of the LT position being overvalued by the NFL, I still think you need a decent blindside protector for a young QB, and those are worth their weight in gold because they're so rare. It took me a while to get over the shock and disappointment of trading Tunsil … but it is a legitimate gamble that has a real chance of paying off. If we believe that securing a top echelon QB is imperative and that nothing else matters until we do that, then this was the right move. If we believe that we will also need a LT--and I do (unless we draft a left handed QB like Tua)--then we've just played Russian Roulette with our young QB's confidence when we do eventually find him. Can we find that LT before we destroy the young QB's confidence and he starts getting twitchy and gun shy?

So, I agree with Charlie Casserly and most of these evaluators that we're doing the right thing trying to get out of the rut of 8-8 mediocrity. That mediocrity treadmill prevents us from ever challenging for anything--no division titles, no conference titles, no Super Bowl titles, hell, not even a single playoff win since Marino retired. IMHO, we need to make a drastic move. THE most important thing is that we secure the right coach, and I do not know whether Coach Flo is that guy or not. Heck, because we're tanking right out of the gate, we may not know until we're well down the tank-->rebuild road, so its really like crossing our fingers. After that, QB is the most important, and this process gives us the best chance of securing one.

Regardless of whether we're great or not, we're giving ourselves the best shot of acquiring a top notch QB. Nothing is guaranteed, but this strategy almost assures us of building an exciting offense and having a good shot at building a truly contending team. We hired a defensive minded head coach to ensure the defense is adequate. We're tanking hard to secure a top notch QB to assure that we have a potent offense. We're committed to a plan and timeline. Grier is doing a masterful job acquiring draft capital. The stage is set. The plan is sound. I think it's worth a shot. Now we fans just need to keep the faith until we're on the other side of this thing and can evaluate whether it succeeded or not. I'm willing to keep the faith, and I hope everyone else is too.
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keyword "decent"... and i disagree about them being "rare"...clearly they're not. Most of your playoff teams have "decent" tackles.
 
ANUFan said:
keyword "decent"... and i disagree about them being "rare"...clearly they're not. Most of your playoff teams have "decent" tackles.
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I can't agree with that brother. IMHO, there's an intense lack of decent LT's out there. Sure, there's 10 or 15 decent ones, but a LOT of teams are starting guys who really should be backups and swing tackles, IMHO. Over half the league is constantly looking for a LT. We are probably spoiled because we've had a number of short spells of good LT play, including Jake Long's first year or two, Brendan Albert's first couple of seasons, and yes, Laremy Tunsil's last season. As LT's go, we've had it OK, but we tended to have horrid players at the other positions which made LT seem less important in our eyes.

There simply aren't enough 6'6, 320 pound dancing bears with long arms and very sharp minds to learn and master the LT position. The few that have most of those things are run out every week. It's the reason a guy like J'Marcus Webb is getting yet another chance after failing repeatedly at LT for years. The best OL in college generally migrates to the LT position, and the best OL in the Pros play the LT position, and the contract figures make that abundantly clear. It's hard to find a LT, and teams that get them, almost never let them go unless they can't sign them in FA or they're tanking like the Dolphins.

Decent LT's are extremely rare, IMHO. It's easier to notice when you don't have one and the rest of your OL is decent, which really hasn't been our situation for the last decade.
 
Digital said:
I can't agree with that brother. IMHO, there's an intense lack of decent LT's out there. Sure, there's 10 or 15 decent ones, but a LOT of teams are starting guys who really should be backups and swing tackles, IMHO. Over half the league is constantly looking for a LT. We are probably spoiled because we've had a number of short spells of good LT play, including Jake Long's first year or two, Brendan Albert's first couple of seasons, and yes, Laremy Tunsil's last season. As LT's go, we've had it OK, but we tended to have horrid players at the other positions which made LT seem less important in our eyes.

There simply aren't enough 6'6, 320 pound dancing bears with long arms and very sharp minds to learn and master the LT position. The few that have most of those things are run out every week. It's the reason a guy like J'Marcus Webb is getting yet another chance after failing repeatedly at LT for years. The best OL in college generally migrates to the LT position, and the best OL in the Pros play the LT position, and the contract figures make that abundantly clear. It's hard to find a LT, and teams that get them, almost never let them go unless they can't sign them in FA or they're tanking like the Dolphins.

Decent LT's are extremely rare, IMHO. It's easier to notice when you don't have one and the rest of your OL is decent, which really hasn't been our situation for the last decade.
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I've said a few times . . . pick a position. 5-7 are very good, 15 are middle-of-pack, and the rest are not NFL level starters. True for every position. But, I agree with ANU - consistent playoff teams have average (decent) or better LTs. To expand this, good OLs have 5 average or better OLmen. They have NO bottom decile OLmen. Good teams have a LOT of average players, although some seem to have two groups - elite and trash
 
Digital said:
I can't agree with that brother. IMHO, there's an intense lack of decent LT's out there. Sure, there's 10 or 15 decent ones, but a LOT of teams are starting guys who really should be backups and swing tackles, IMHO. Over half the league is constantly looking for a LT. We are probably spoiled because we've had a number of short spells of good LT play, including Jake Long's first year or two, Brendan Albert's first couple of seasons, and yes, Laremy Tunsil's last season. As LT's go, we've had it OK, but we tended to have horrid players at the other positions which made LT seem less important in our eyes.

There simply aren't enough 6'6, 320 pound dancing bears with long arms and very sharp minds to learn and master the LT position. The few that have most of those things are run out every week. It's the reason a guy like J'Marcus Webb is getting yet another chance after failing repeatedly at LT for years. The best OL in college generally migrates to the LT position, and the best OL in the Pros play the LT position, and the contract figures make that abundantly clear. It's hard to find a LT, and teams that get them, almost never let them go unless they can't sign them in FA or they're tanking like the Dolphins.

Decent LT's are extremely rare, IMHO. It's easier to notice when you don't have one and the rest of your OL is decent, which really hasn't been our situation for the last decade.
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It's okay if we disagree that's the beautiful part. Overall, I think it's easier to put 5 "decent" guys together that play as a unit vs. finding 1 excellent tackle and some combination of the rest.
The key becomes finding that above average QB.

Sadly, I got a chance to watch Tannehill during the preseason behind that Tennessee line, btw a much better overall OL than ours.
Guess what happened?

He took some God-Awful sacks! He held the ball way too long and continued to refuse to move his feet.

I'm more convinced now that the much easier formula to success

1) Get as close to an elite QB as you can get
2) Get at least "decent" protection

^^^That's the easiest formula. Any thing resembling some combination of

1) Elite OL and average-ish QB play is far to hard to put together and sustain(injury, $$$ etc) in the NFL
 
ANUFan said:
It's okay if we disagree that's the beautiful part. Overall, I think it's easier to put 5 "decent" guys together that play as a unit vs. finding 1 excellent tackle and some combination of the rest.
The key becomes finding that above average QB.

Sadly, I got a chance to watch Tannehill during the preseason behind that Tennessee line, btw a much better overall OL than ours.
Guess what happened?

He took some God-Awful sacks! He held the ball way too long and continued to refuse to move his feet.

I'm more convinced now that the much easier formula to success

1) Get as close to an elite QB as you can get
2) Get at least "decent" protection

^^^That's the easiest formula. Any thing resembling some combination of

1) Elite OL and average-ish QB play is far to hard to put together and sustain(injury, $$$ etc) in the NFL
Click to expand...
Glad to hear that! I think the current regime shares your philosophy. They're looking to build the OL using the Patriots model, of which I'm a huge fan. The short version of it is this:

1. Draft lots of guys, trade for guys, look at tons of FA's and cuts, then churn 'em all looking at as many different guys as you can, keeping ones that can be solid.
2. Target guys in the draft and FA that have high floors and low ceilings, guys that are good technicians but limited athletes, guys who perform solidly but never have the upside that makes them unreasonable to re-sign when they become FA's.
3. Get rid of guys a year too early rather than a year too late.
4. Don't ever overpay, because bad salary cap decisions are like the tail of the scorpion, it takes a little longer but they come out of nowhere to sting ya and kill ya.
5. Build an OL where every lineman is a good run blocker against pass defenses, and reliably solid for short time span in pass protection to ensure at least 3 seconds of protection every play. That means guys who pick up stunts and twists, don't flail, and if/when they get beat, they've delayed it long enough for the QB to have a chance to complete a quick throw.
6. Prioritize guys who are smart and hard working so they always execute exactly what they're asked to execute, even if they're overmatched athletically, so the coaches know what to expect.
7. Draft guys who are durable, because nothing is more disrupting to chemistry than guys missing games and salary cap left on the training table. The OL is about working together, and that requires ironman durability guys, not jaw-dropping athleticism.
8. The OL is a chain, and it's only as strong as its weakest link, so worry more about the worst OL player than the best. The ideal is for everyone on the OL and subs to be above average, not great.
 
ANUFan said:
It's okay if we disagree that's the beautiful part. Overall, I think it's easier to put 5 "decent" guys together that play as a unit vs. finding 1 excellent tackle and some combination of the rest.
The key becomes finding that above average QB.

Sadly, I got a chance to watch Tannehill during the preseason behind that Tennessee line, btw a much better overall OL than ours.
Guess what happened?

He took some God-Awful sacks! He held the ball way too long and continued to refuse to move his feet.

I'm more convinced now that the much easier formula to success

1) Get as close to an elite QB as you can get
2) Get at least "decent" protection

^^^That's the easiest formula. Any thing resembling some combination of

1) Elite OL and average-ish QB play is far to hard to put together and sustain(injury, $$$ etc) in the NFL
Click to expand...
I agree with most of this but with 1 important change........The QB we draft must have a strong pocket presence. QB's like Tannehill always take way too many sacks because they simply can't feel the pressure coming. That is exactly why I feel that Tunsil won't help Watson all that much, Watson doesn't have a strong pocket presence either.

Heck, in just watching Rosen this preseason you can tell that he was much more adept at feeling where the pressure was coming from than Tannehill was. You don't need an elite offensive line, you need 5 guys that are good run blockers and simply adequate in the passing game. The QB can do a lot of favors for the offensive line with sacks and he can also do a lot of damage.

Whoever our QB is going forward simply needs to have a good feel for the pocket. I'm way more concerned with the run blocking.
 
Growing debate if the classic "franchise LT" is mandatory for overall O efficiency.

Of course it's good to have talent all across the line. But the interior seems to be

more critical in the faster game -- not so many deep drops, have a snack, scan

the field, buff the nails, then let the pig fly!
 
Digital said:
Glad to hear that! I think the current regime shares your philosophy. They're looking to build the OL using the Patriots model, of which I'm a huge fan. The short version of it is this:

1. Draft lots of guys, trade for guys, look at tons of FA's and cuts, then churn 'em all looking at as many different guys as you can, keeping ones that can be solid.
2. Target guys in the draft and FA that have high floors and low ceilings, guys that are good technicians but limited athletes, guys who perform solidly but never have the upside that makes them unreasonable to re-sign when they become FA's.
3. Get rid of guys a year too early rather than a year too late.
4. Don't ever overpay, because bad salary cap decisions are like the tail of the scorpion, it takes a little longer but they come out of nowhere to sting ya and kill ya.
5. Build an OL where every lineman is a good run blocker against pass defenses, and reliably solid for short time span in pass protection to ensure at least 3 seconds of protection every play. That means guys who pick up stunts and twists, don't flail, and if/when they get beat, they've delayed it long enough for the QB to have a chance to complete a quick throw.
6. Prioritize guys who are smart and hard working so they always execute exactly what they're asked to execute, even if they're overmatched athletically, so the coaches know what to expect.
7. Draft guys who are durable, because nothing is more disrupting to chemistry than guys missing games and salary cap left on the training table. The OL is about working together, and that requires ironman durability guys, not jaw-dropping athleticism.
8. The OL is a chain, and it's only as strong as its weakest link, so worry more about the worst OL player than the best. The ideal is for everyone on the OL and subs to be above average, not great.
Click to expand...

Simply Beautiful!
 
I really don’t think the trade favored Miami as heavily as some people think. Trading away a franchise LT that is 25 for picks is a risk. Sure, we could get quality players out of it and come out winners. Sure, the Texans could have injuries and way underperform landing us an early 1st and we could come out winners. We could also draft guys like Dion Jordan, Devante Parker, Jared Odrick, Vontae Davis, Charles Harris, Ryan Tannehill etc. that never perform up to their draft status. We could draft guys like Jake Long and Mike Pouncey who were pro bowl caliber players that could never stay healthy (for us at least). It was a high risk, high reward trade for both teams and I honestly hope it works out well for both of us in the end.
 
Digital said:
Glad to hear that! I think the current regime shares your philosophy. They're looking to build the OL using the Patriots model, of which I'm a huge fan. The short version of it is this:

1. Draft lots of guys, trade for guys, look at tons of FA's and cuts, then churn 'em all looking at as many different guys as you can, keeping ones that can be solid.
2. Target guys in the draft and FA that have high floors and low ceilings, guys that are good technicians but limited athletes, guys who perform solidly but never have the upside that makes them unreasonable to re-sign when they become FA's.
3. Get rid of guys a year too early rather than a year too late.
4. Don't ever overpay, because bad salary cap decisions are like the tail of the scorpion, it takes a little longer but they come out of nowhere to sting ya and kill ya.
5. Build an OL where every lineman is a good run blocker against pass defenses, and reliably solid for short time span in pass protection to ensure at least 3 seconds of protection every play. That means guys who pick up stunts and twists, don't flail, and if/when they get beat, they've delayed it long enough for the QB to have a chance to complete a quick throw.
6. Prioritize guys who are smart and hard working so they always execute exactly what they're asked to execute, even if they're overmatched athletically, so the coaches know what to expect.
7. Draft guys who are durable, because nothing is more disrupting to chemistry than guys missing games and salary cap left on the training table. The OL is about working together, and that requires ironman durability guys, not jaw-dropping athleticism.
8. The OL is a chain, and it's only as strong as its weakest link, so worry more about the worst OL player than the best. The ideal is for everyone on the OL and subs to be above average, not great.
Click to expand...

Nice! I have to assume you've penetrated the Pats inner mind (akin to the Borg collective) and confiscated this file!

Make sure you get this to the proper Dolphins authorities!

:woot:
 
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