What Might Have Been

[Kiick72]

Pittsburgh was still on the cusp though, especially when they got Swann and Stallworth with Mike Webster and Jack Ham in that 1974 draft. I'm not sure that the Dolphin teams with Csonka, Morris and Kiick would have been able to beat the Steelers teams from 75 onwards. It's certainly something very interesting to think about.

That "74 draft of the Steelers was amazing! I can't recall all of them but I thought the NFL network had a show on this once and they drafted several HOF's in that one! Incredible!

I think '75 or '76 would have been our last real shot with that team. We might have won again in '74 if not for that crazy "Sea of Hands" game. Can someone tell me how that ball got thru?

The WFL still ticks me off and I was only a kid when that went down. Shula did one heck of a job in '75, as someone else said. 10-4 and missing 3 of your 5 real offensive weapons. What a coaching job.

 

[nyjunc]

After the WFL, Csonka played two years with the Giants and then had his swan song with the Dolphins in 1979. That year he rushed for 837 yards, averaging 3.8 per carry and scored a career-high 12 rushing touchdowns. That's five years after 1974 and he obviously still had something left. He was in his prime when he left for the WFL. Warfield was a little older, but played two years with Cleveland before retiring after 1977. Unlike Csonka and Warfield, Kiick was not a Hall of Famer. But he was a solid player who really did everything well. You are right about one thing, who knows what might have happened. But those guys all still had something left.

He did have 837 yds on 3.8 YPC in 1979 and in 1974 before he left he had just 749 on 3.8 YPC and he also had 779 in the '77 & '78 combined.

In '75 Don Nottingham had 718 yds on 4.3 YPC which is half a yard better YPC than than what Csonka had in '74.

1974 Csonka & Benny Malone: 1228 yds, 12 TDs, 3.9 YPC
1975 Morris & Nottingham: 1593 yds, 16 TDs, 4.1 YPC

Your running game was BETTER in 1975 w/o Csonka so there goes that excuse.

In '76 your top 2 averaged 4.3, Csonka averaged 3.6
In '77 your top 2 average 4.5, Csonka averaged 3.5
In '78 your top 2 averaged 4.5 YPC, Csonka averaged 3.4

Csonka was clearly a declining player and you running game actually got better after he left. Your Championship window closed before those guys went to the WFL and all 3 were declining. You would not have won another SB had they stayed.

 

[Kendra_Chelsea]

He did have 837 yds on 3.8 YPC in 1979 and in 1974 before he left he had just 749 on 3.8 YPC and he also had 779 in the '77 & '78 combined.

In '75 Don Nottingham had 718 yds on 4.3 YPC which is half a yard better YPC than than what Csonka had in '74.

1974 Csonka & Benny Malone: 1228 yds, 12 TDs, 3.9 YPC
1975 Morris & Nottingham: 1593 yds, 16 TDs, 4.1 YPC

Your running game was BETTER in 1975 w/o Csonka so there goes that excuse.

In '76 your top 2 averaged 4.3, Csonka averaged 3.6
In '77 your top 2 average 4.5, Csonka averaged 3.5
In '78 your top 2 averaged 4.5 YPC, Csonka averaged 3.4

Csonka was clearly a declining player and you running game actually got better after he left. Your Championship window closed before those guys went to the WFL and all 3 were declining. You would not have won another SB had they stayed.

See heres the problem when you try to prop up stats to support your pointyou really start to ingore the important facts. It doesnt matter who you are or what era you play if you take away your number 2 (our number 2 was our #1 half back) your number 1 suffers. If you take away your number 2 reciever your number one will suffer.

The only thing your stats support is that without morris, LC clearly suffered- was he on the decline? thats silly- but really you are welcome in all the 72 threads... maybe it will help with the bitterness.

 

[SF Dolphin Fan]

He did have 837 yds on 3.8 YPC in 1979 and in 1974 before he left he had just 749 on 3.8 YPC and he also had 779 in the '77 & '78 combined.

In '75 Don Nottingham had 718 yds on 4.3 YPC which is half a yard better YPC than than what Csonka had in '74.

1974 Csonka & Benny Malone: 1228 yds, 12 TDs, 3.9 YPC
1975 Morris & Nottingham: 1593 yds, 16 TDs, 4.1 YPC

Your running game was BETTER in 1975 w/o Csonka so there goes that excuse.

In '76 your top 2 averaged 4.3, Csonka averaged 3.6
In '77 your top 2 average 4.5, Csonka averaged 3.5
In '78 your top 2 averaged 4.5 YPC, Csonka averaged 3.4

Csonka was clearly a declining player and you running game actually got better after he left. Your Championship window closed before those guys went to the WFL and all 3 were declining. You would not have won another SB had they stayed.

Your argument, honestly, just doesn't make a lot of sense. Csonka had an extremely productive 1979 season for the Dolphins, FIVE years after you said he was on the decline, which is an eternity in football time for a running back. Then you compare his numbers with the Giants, a team that probably had the worst offensive line in football back then, to the Dolphins runners at the time. Not apples to apples. The true value of Csonka was in his short yardage running and his blocking skills (not his ypc) -- he may have been the best blocking fullback to ever play the game. There may not have been a better runner at picking up those short yardage runs either than Csonka. In these situations, when everyone in the stadium knew he was going to get the ball, including the opposing defense, it was very rare to see him stopped. Even in 1979 as his 12 rushing touchdowns support. That was what couldn't be replaced when he left. I just wonder in reading your post if you ever saw Csonka play, other than in highlight films. Because then I think you'd have more of a true feel than talking strickly about yards per carry. Personally, I really believe Miami's window would have been open until about 1977. Another championship definitely would have been possible in my opinion.

 

[nyjunc]

See heres the problem when you try to prop up stats to support your pointyou really start to ingore the important facts. It doesnt matter who you are or what era you play if you take away your number 2 (our number 2 was our #1 half back) your number 1 suffers. If you take away your number 2 reciever your number one will suffer.

The only thing your stats support is that without morris, LC clearly suffered- was he on the decline? thats silly- but really you are welcome in all the 72 threads... maybe it will help with the bitterness.

But if you take away Csonka and his replacement does better how did you get worse?

1974:

Csonka: 197 rushes, 749 yds, 3.8 YPC, 9 TDs
Malone: 117, 479, 4.1, 3 TDs
Total: 314, 1228, 3.9, 12 TDs

1975:

Morris: 219 rushes, 875 yds, 4.0 YPC, 4 TDs
Nottingham: 168, 718, 4.3, 12 TDs
Total: 387, 1593, 4.1, 16 TDs

Morris '75 did a better joib w/ yards and YPC than Csonka in '74 and his TD production was picked up by Nottingham. You had a better 1-2 punch in 1975.

As a team:

1974: 570-2191, 3.8, 25 TDs
1975: 594-2500, 4.2, 24 TDs

it's clear that you didn't miss Csonka's production at all since your running game got BETTER.

Your argument, honestly, just doesn't make a lot of sense. Csonka had an extremely productive 1979 season for the Dolphins, FIVE years after you said he was on the decline, which is an eternity in football time for a running back.

he averaged 3.8 YPC in '79 just like he did in '74 but in btw his YPC consistently went down. From '71-'79 his YPC went down every year and after '73 he was under 4.0(the nagic # for RBs) for good.

Then you compare his numbers with the Giants, a team that probably had the worst offensive line in football back then, to the Dolphins runners at the time. Not apples to apples. The true value of Csonka was in his short yardage running and his blocking skills (not his ypc)

I compared his '74 #s w/ the Dolphins of '75 & '76, I also compared Ginat #s but I did compare dolphin #s and if YPC was so meaningless then how come from '69-'73 he was never under 4.3 YPC?

In these situations, when everyone in the stadium knew he was going to get the ball, including the opposing defense, it was very rare to see him stopped. Even in 1979 as his 12 rushing touchdowns support.

How come Nottingham in '75 had 3 more TDs than Csonka had in '74? The pointis your running game got better in 1975 w/o him and also that you had a complete team in '74 and didn't win so why would you have won mroe SBs w/ those players declining over the next few years?

Personally, I really believe Miami's window would have been open until about 1977. Another championship definitely would have been possible in my opinion.

Whatever opinion you have about Csonka the facts cannot be disputed that Miami's run game was better in 1975 than 1974 and you didn't even make the playoffs. In 1974 you had your team toghether and didn't make the Championship Game so why would w/ declining players would you have won another Championship?

Kiick averaged 81 carries a year his last 2 in Miami and had 1 TDs in those 2 years- he would have been a difference maker going forward? Csonka's #s were significantly declining, he would never average above 4.0 YPC and never gain 1,000 yds again after 1973. he went from 4.6 bYPC in '73 to 3.8 in '74- that is a HUGE difference- it's almost a full yard per carry. Maybe you have a case w/ warfield but Warfield's better days were also behind him.

 

[BlueFin]

It wasn't just the World Football league that infringed on the Dolphin Dynasty, it was now the very familar steroids.

Miami seemed to be a team clean at the time, while the Steelers, as we all know now, were indulging quite liberally. The freakish builds and early deaths (by heart failure) of Steve Furness & Mike Webster, as well as the confessions by Steve Courson and Furness, and Jim Haslett:

http://grg51.typepad.com/steroid_nation/2006/07/curse_of_the_st.html

Make it obvious the Middle to late 70's Steelers had a serious competitive advantage that the Dolphins, even with Csonka, Kiick and Warfield, probably would not have overcome.

And regarding NYJUNC, the Dolphins were 10-4 in 1975, thats a better winning percentage than 11-5 is now in todays expanded schedule, they didn't make the playoffs because they lost the tiebreaker to win the division with the 10-4 Colts, and there were only 4 teams that made the playoffs in that era in each conference, obviously in todays era they make the playoffs, so I would hardly say they weren't still contending.

 

[nyjunc]

So you KNOW that none of the dolphins used steroids? Steroids were rampant in the 70s, I'm sure dolphins, Steelers, Raiders, Jets and every other team had steroid users and alot of them.

 

[Kendra_Chelsea]

But if you take away Csonka and his replacement does better how did you get worse?

1974:

Csonka: 197 rushes, 749 yds, 3.8 YPC, 9 TDs
Malone: 117, 479, 4.1, 3 TDs
Total: 314, 1228, 3.9, 12 TDs

1975:

Morris: 219 rushes, 875 yds, 4.0 YPC, 4 TDs
Nottingham: 168, 718, 4.3, 12 TDs
Total: 387, 1593, 4.1, 16 TDs

Morris '75 did a better joib w/ yards and YPC than Csonka in '74 and his TD production was picked up by Nottingham. You had a better 1-2 punch in 1975.

As a team:

1974: 570-2191, 3.8, 25 TDs
1975: 594-2500, 4.2, 24 TDs

it's clear that you didn't miss Csonka's production at all since your running game got BETTER.




he averaged 3.8 YPC in '79 just like he did in '74 but in btw his YPC consistently went down. From '71-'79 his YPC went down every year and after '73 he was under 4.0(the nagic # for RBs) for good.



I compared his '74 #s w/ the Dolphins of '75 & '76, I also compared Ginat #s but I did compare dolphin #s and if YPC was so meaningless then how come from '69-'73 he was never under 4.3 YPC?



How come Nottingham in '75 had 3 more TDs than Csonka had in '74? The pointis your running game got better in 1975 w/o him and also that you had a complete team in '74 and didn't win so why would you have won mroe SBs w/ those players declining over the next few years?



Whatever opinion you have about Csonka the facts cannot be disputed that Miami's run game was better in 1975 than 1974 and you didn't even make the playoffs. In 1974 you had your team toghether and didn't make the Championship Game so why would w/ declining players would you have won another Championship?

Kiick averaged 81 carries a year his last 2 in Miami and had 1 TDs in those 2 years- he would have been a difference maker going forward? Csonka's #s were significantly declining, he would never average above 4.0 YPC and never gain 1,000 yds again after 1973. he went from 4.6 bYPC in '73 to 3.8 in '74- that is a HUGE difference- it's almost a full yard per carry. Maybe you have a case w/ warfield but Warfield's better days were also behind him.

come on, i know you have to know some about positional football. One half back does one thing well, another does another thing well. One compliments Csonk one might not. Aside from that, since you are so intent on your agurement (which means you go ahead and do the research)
1. tell me what were the ages of our starting offensive line?
2. What was the rotation like on the line?
3. Anyone on the 74 team have any lingering issues?
4. Anyone disgruntled (playing like robbie wasnt paying him)
5 On other postions (which are directly related) was bob playing like he did in 73
6. How as our TOP on offense in 74, was there a significant change?

All these things have an affect on the stats of our fullback...period

tell me (i already know because i saw them both play quite a bit) how different was morris and nottingham?

If you can not answer the above questions you really have no right to use your agurement. Like i said using the stats you use really says nothing at all. its just silly

 

[NY8123]

Morris '75 did a better joib w/ yards and YPC than Csonka in '74 and his TD production was picked up by Nottingham. You had a better 1-2 punch in 1975.

What would Morris have done this year with Csonka? You can never answer this question so debating is all you can do. No one is right.

How come Nottingham in '75 had 3 more TDs than Csonka had in '74? The pointis your running game got better in 1975 w/o him and also that you had a complete team in '74 and didn't win so why would you have won mroe SBs w/ those players declining over the next few years?

How many first and goals did the 74 fins have vs. 75? This is directly associated with RB TD's. Very few season TD runs are over ten yards.

it's clear that you didn't miss Csonka's production at all since your running game got BETTER.

Did the RB production get better or did the O-line play pick up that much more in 75? Once again argue all you want it is still just opinions.

Kiick averaged 81 carries a year his last 2 in Miami and had 1 TDs in those 2 years- he would have been a difference maker going forward? Csonka's #s were significantly declining, he would never average above 4.0 YPC and never gain 1,000 yds again after 1973. he went from 4.6 bYPC in '73 to 3.8 in '74- that is a HUGE difference- it's almost a full yard per carry. Maybe you have a case w/ warfield but Warfield's better days were also behind him.

If you factor in the 14 game vs. 16 game season Csonka's numbers still prove he was fully productive and worth keeping. Especially paired with another RB.


Argue every and any point you want, Csnoka was a great runner over the course of his playing time. He was missed when he left the Phins. The Jets would have gladly taken Csonka at any time if they could have. Everyone declines and every record season is not followed by a second. John Elway was in the twilight of his game and won two bowls. You can never count out any team in any season even if the chance are remote. What if's and could of's are just that, you might as well argue God.

 

[nyjunc]

come on, i know you have to know some about positional football. One half back does one thing well, another does another thing well. One compliments Csonk one might not. Aside from that, since you are so intent on your agurement (which means you go ahead and do the research)
1. tell me what were the ages of our starting offensive line?
2. What was the rotation like on the line?
3. Anyone on the 74 team have any lingering issues?
4. Anyone disgruntled (playing like robbie wasnt paying him)
5 On other postions (which are directly related) was bob playing like he did in 73
6. How as our TOP on offense in 74, was there a significant change?

All these things have an affect on the stats of our fullback...period

tell me (i already know because i saw them both play quite a bit) how different was morris and nottingham?

If you can not answer the above questions you really have no right to use your agurement. Like i said using the stats you use really says nothing at all. its just silly

I wasn't around in those days so obviously I didn't see the play, you can use that as your argument but the facts are that Csonka was a declining player whether you want to admit it or not and the facts are that Miami's ground game got BETTER. Would you have been better in '75 & '76? Maybe but would it have guaranteed you another SB? of course not. This is a weal attempt by dolphin fans to try to make those 70s teams even better than they were. Stop holding onto 1972 & 1973, it's as sad as Jet fans trying to hold onto 1968. We can play the what if game too, what of Namath was healthy? If he's healthy we likely would have had another chance to win it all but he wasn't and those 3 decling players left you for whatever reason and you didn't win those SBs nor would you have if they stayed.

Argue every and any point you want, Csnoka was a great runner over the course of his playing time. He was missed when he left the Phins. The Jets would have gladly taken Csonka at any time if they could have. Everyone declines and every record season is not followed by a second. John Elway was in the twilight of his game and won two bowls. You can never count out any team in any season even if the chance are remote. What if's and could of's are just that, you might as well argue God.

I never debated whether Csonka was great or not I just saiod he was declining in those years and the #s show that. Under 4 YPC is not good, when he was at his peak he was near and above 5 which is outstanding.

 

[BlueFin]

So you KNOW that none of the dolphins used steroids? Steroids were rampant in the 70s, I'm sure dolphins, Steelers, Raiders, Jets and every other team had steroid users and alot of them.

I can say with reasonable surety that none of the starters or key players from the early 70's Dolphin championship teams did roids, I watched them and saw no freakish builds like I did with the Steelers, particullary on the O-line.

It is now widely known and admitted by former Steeler players that the Steelers were the team that started rampant Steroid use in the NFL.

Steroids were not rampant in the early 70's, it was during and after the Steelers run 75'-80' that it became rampant.

Did you even read the links? You obviously didn't watch that era first hand, as I did.

 

[BlueFin]

I wasn't around in those days so obviously I didn't see the play, you can use that as your argument but the facts are that Csonka was a declining player whether you want to admit it or not and the facts are that Miami's ground game got BETTER. Would you have been better in '75 & '76? Maybe but would it have guaranteed you another SB? of course not. This is a weal attempt by dolphin fans to try to make those 70s teams even better than they were. Stop holding onto 1972 & 1973, it's as sad as Jet fans trying to hold onto 1968. We can play the what if game too, what of Namath was healthy? If he's healthy we likely would have had another chance to win it all but he wasn't and those 3 decling players left you for whatever reason and you didn't win those SBs nor would you have if they stayed.



I never debated whether Csonka was great or not I just saiod he was declining in those years and the #s show that. Under 4 YPC is not good, when he was at his peak he was near and above 5 which is outstanding.

The facts are you didn't see it, and you really don't know what your talking about, your just crunching stats and are naive enough to think that makes you an expert.

If you were an expert you'd know Csonka didn't have many 40-80 yard runs to mix in with his average to inflate it as other runners did, he earned his yardage the hard way, and even in his last season of 1979 here he was more reliable at getting your team the 3-4 yard run up the middle to move the chains than most in this league.

He was a freaking bull right up to his final year and that it why he is a legend.

 

[nyjunc]

I can say with reasonable surety that none of the starters or key players from the early 70's Dolphin championship teams did roids, I watched them and saw no freakish builds like I did with the Steelers, particullary on the O-line.

It is now widely known and admitted by former Steeler players that the Steelers were the team that started rampant Steroid use in the NFL.

Steroids were not rampant in the early 70's, it was during and after the Steelers run 75'-80' that it became rampant.

Did you even read the links? You obviously didn't watch that era first hand, as I did.

Homerism at it's finest. You have no clue whether any dolphins used or didn't use.

The facts are you didn't see it, and you really don't know what your talking about, your just crunching stats and are naive enough to think that makes you an expert.

If you were an expert you'd know Csonka didn't have many 40-80 yard runs to mix in with his average to inflate it as other runners did, he earned his yardage the hard way, and even in his last season of 1979 here he was more reliable at getting your team the 3-4 yard run up the middle to move the chains than most in this league.

He was a freaking bull right up to his final year and that it why he is a legend.

Obviously he must have had alot of 5-6 yard runs in the earkly 70s then b/c he YPC was well over 4 after his rookie year through 1973 and even topped out above 5. When someone goes from over 5 YPC to under 4 YPC that's a HUGE difference whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

 

[BlueFin]

Homerism at it's finest. You have no clue whether any dolphins used or didn't use.



Obviously he must have had alot of 5-6 yard runs in the earkly 70s then b/c he YPC was well over 4 after his rookie year through 1973 and even topped out above 5. When someone goes from over 5 YPC to under 4 YPC that's a HUGE difference whether you want to acknowledge it or not.

Once again, I watched that era firsthand...you didn't. So I have much more of a clue than you, I also watched Joe Willie firsthand, unlike you.

I wasn't talking about 5 or 6 yard runs champ, I was talking about the long 40-80 runs that inflate a runners average per carry, surely a stat nut like you gets that?

 

[Captain Lou]

Just for fun I wonder what might have happened if the World Football League didn't sign Larry Csonka, Paul Warfield and Jim Kiick at (near) the peak of the Dolphins dominance in the early 1970's. I know we'll never know if Miami would have won another title, but I definitely think their window of opportunity was still open and probably would have been for another couple of years. I think 1975 would have been their best shot. In 1975, one year after losing the three players (two of which ended up in the Pro Football Hall of Fame) the Dolphins went 10-4 but somehow missed the playoffs. Baltimore also finished 10-4 that season and won the AFC East, in part because of a 10-7 overtime win over the Dolphins late in the season. Miami's defense allowed just 222 points that year, with only the Steelers allowing less (162) in the AFC so that unit was still championship caliber. With Warfield, Csonka and Kiick I believe Miami wins two more games and finishes 12-2. The overtime loss to Baltimore and the 20-19 setback versus Houston (which finished 10-4) could have been wins. It would have been tough to beat the Steelers in the playoffs, as Pittsburgh went 12-2 and was coming off its first championship. But if the game was played at the Orange Bowl, I'd certainly take my chances with the Dolphins as that was truly a great homefield advantage. Dallas, a wildcard team, ended up in the super bowl for the NFC and wouldn't that have been sweet revenge if Miami beat the Cowboys? Another factor is the draft and how that might have changed for the Dolphins who suddenly had to look to replace a big part of the offense following the 1974 season. I'm not one to look back very often and, of course, we'll never know what might have been. But there isn't much going on right now, outside of Jason Taylor, and it would be fun to hear other opinions.

And if a large comet hadn't crashed into the earth billions of years ago none of that would ever had happened!