What Might Have Been

[dlockz]

He did have 837 yds on 3.8 YPC in 1979 and in 1974 before he left he had just 749 on 3.8 YPC and he also had 779 in the '77 & '78 combined.

In '75 Don Nottingham had 718 yds on 4.3 YPC which is half a yard better YPC than than what Csonka had in '74.

1974 Csonka & Benny Malone: 1228 yds, 12 TDs, 3.9 YPC
1975 Morris & Nottingham: 1593 yds, 16 TDs, 4.1 YPC

Your running game was BETTER in 1975 w/o Csonka so there goes that excuse.

In '76 your top 2 averaged 4.3, Csonka averaged 3.6
In '77 your top 2 average 4.5, Csonka averaged 3.5
In '78 your top 2 averaged 4.5 YPC, Csonka averaged 3.4

Csonka was clearly a declining player and you running game actually got better after he left. Your Championship window closed before those guys went to the WFL and all 3 were declining. You would not have won another SB had they stayed.

Warfield was on the decline ? He was still averaging 19 yards a catch and was only 32. He was coming off of a pro bowl. As for Czonka he was coming off a probowl year also and how would our offense be better without these 2 added to the mix of the other players you mention. As for Kiick it was his worse season but he did alot of other things besides run. we barely lost to the eventual superbowl winner on the last play of the game so its very likely the addition of Warfield, Czonka and Kiick produce a super bowl champ or close to such in 1975.

 

[SmokyFin]

Another huge loss, maybe the biggest, that I don't think anyone mentioned was the loss of Defensive coordinator Bill Arnsparger after the '73 season. The defense was never the same after he left to take over the Giants.

His replacement quit on the plane home after the playoff loss to the Raiders in '74. I think a lot of the players were ready to throw him off the plane.

Then when he came back to the team a few years later Miami returned to the Super Bowl with the Killer Bees. Then several years after that he returned again to the Chargers and helped them knock us out of the playoffs in '94 on their way to the Super Bowl.

I can't believe Shula went all of those years in the early 90's with Olivadotti as the DC instead of getting Arnsparger back on board. The man was a true coaching genius.

If Arnsparger never left and the WFL never started I think we definitely would have won the '75 SB and possibly '76 as well.

 

[nyjunc]

Once again, I watched that era firsthand...you didn't. So I have much more of a clue than you, I also watched Joe Willie firsthand, unlike you.

I wasn't talking about 5 or 6 yard runs champ, I was talking about the long 40-80 runs that inflate a runners average per carry, surely a stat nut like you gets that?

Whay does watching it firsthand have to do w/ anything? Since you can tell just by wtching players please tell me which players in MLB have used steroids the past 15-20 years? and which NFL and NBA players as well?

I'm not a statnut but #s are kept for a reason and when Csonka was at his peak he was near or aboive 5 YPC which is great. After '73 he never averaged 4.0 YPC again. That is a clear indication of his decline, it doesn't mean he wasn't good he just wasn't GREAT anymore.

Warfield was on the decline ? He was still averaging 19 yards a catch and was only 32. He was coming off of a pro bowl. As for Czonka he was coming off a probowl year also and how would our offense be better without these 2 added to the mix of the other players you mention. As for Kiick it was his worse season but he did alot of other things besides run. we barely lost to the eventual superbowl winner on the last play of the game so its very likely the addition of Warfield, Czonka and Kiick produce a super bowl champ or close to such in 1975.

I believe I acknowledged warfield had a good '74 but the 2 years before that he had just 29 recs each year which was the lowest in his career where he played at least 12 games since 1967. He only played 2 more NFL seasons after '74 so I think it's safe to say he was on the decline and nearing the end of the line.

You didn't play Pitt in '74, you lost in the div rd to the team Pitt beat- the Raiders. oak didn't win the SB until the '76 season.

 

[BlueFin]

Whay does watching it firsthand have to do w/ anything?

I don't know, what does scouting players firsthand on film have over reading about them in books?

It means you really don't know what your talking about, your regurgitating stats and that you actually think that tells you the whole story.

 

[nyjunc]

I don't know, what does scouting players firsthand on film have over reading about them in books?

It means you really don't know what your talking about, your regurgitating stats and that you actually think that tells you the whole story.

Tell me and the rest of us who has done steroids in MLB? We know more than the 80 or so players they told us about in the Mitchell report did them so who has done them? We'd all like to know? We'd also like to know what NFL players over the past decade or so have been using?

I admit I do not have the firtshand knowledge about this particlaur topic BUT I have never heard this excuse come out before and I have posted here for years. All of sudden 30 years later and it dawns on you guys you may have won more Chmapionships had those guys stayed? Come on. I know it's hard that it's been nearly 40 years since your last title but join us Jet fans in that same group. It burns you that you only have 1 more title and that the 3 titles btw the teams happened 35-40 years ago.

 

[BlueFin]

Tell me and the rest of us who has done steroids in MLB? We know more than the 80 or so players they told us about in the Mitchell report did them so who has done them? We'd all like to know? We'd also like to know what NFL players over the past decade or so have been using?

I admit I do not have the firtshand knowledge about this particlaur topic BUT I have never heard this excuse come out before and I have posted here for years. All of sudden 30 years later and it dawns on you guys you may have won more Chmapionships had those guys stayed? Come on. I know it's hard that it's been nearly 40 years since your last title but join us Jet fans in that same group. It burns you that you only have 1 more title and that the 3 titles btw the teams happened 35-40 years ago.

First of all, The Jets are no where near the Dolphins level in regards to all time success.

The Dolphins are the winningest team in the history of the merged NFL, including 5 AFC Championships, 2 Superbowl Championships, and apart from the last few years...consistent winners.

The Jets are, as vividly shown in my signature, way way way under.500 as a team, they have lost many more times than they won.

They are the only team (apart from expansion teams) in the AFC who has not been to a Superbowl in the merged (Modern) NFL, and they have only that 1 AFL Championship.

Regarding steroids, you can look at the physical stature of players and fairly easily conclude steroid use or not.

ie....Barry Bonds, before and after. If you were around for the 70's you saw the freakish builds on Mike Webster, Steve Courson & Steve Furness of the Steelers you noticed something different than anything you had seen before in NFL history, of course, we also have their own admissions and the early deaths of Webster and Furness as a result of their steroid use.

On the other hand, when you look at Jim Langer, Bob Kuechenberg, Larry Little, Norm Evans and Wayne Moore, you don't see the freakish builds or the health problems as they have aged from steroid complications.

 

[rdhstlr23]

Tell me and the rest of us who has done steroids in MLB? We know more than the 80 or so players they told us about in the Mitchell report did them so who has done them? We'd all like to know? We'd also like to know what NFL players over the past decade or so have been using?

I admit I do not have the firtshand knowledge about this particlaur topic BUT I have never heard this excuse come out before and I have posted here for years. All of sudden 30 years later and it dawns on you guys you may have won more Chmapionships had those guys stayed? Come on. I know it's hard that it's been nearly 40 years since your last title but join us Jet fans in that same group. It burns you that you only have 1 more title and that the 3 titles btw the teams happened 35-40 years ago.

Junc, what up dude?

You jazzed up for Joba's start on Tuesday? I'm stoked.

Sorry to get O/T. I understand the debate here. It's the old, I watched the games versus the stats guy.

I understand both arguments. It's like my dad vs. all the time. I throw stats, he throws "what I see with my own eyes". It's great.

With regards to this, I tend to agree with BlueFin. I don't think stats really talk about the greatness of those teams and those players. While I wouldn't have BlueFin head up my scouting dept. (no offense to you Fin), I'd be more inclined to take that opinion in a bit more regarded light than just statistics.

I understand the analogy you were trying to setup with the MLB and NBA steroids, Junc, but I don't think it was a very good one.

 

[nyjunc]

First of all, The Jets are no where near the Dolphins level in regards to all time success.

The Dolphins are the winningest team in the history of the merged NFL, including 5 AFC Championships, 2 Superbowl Championships, and apart from the last few years...consistent winners.

The Jets are, as vividly shown in my signature, way way way under.500 as a team, they have lost many more times than they won.

They are the only team (apart from expansion teams) in the AFC who has not been to a Superbowl in the merged (Modern) NFL, and they have only that 1 AFL Championship.

Regarding steroids, you can look at the physical stature of players and fairly easily conclude steroid use or not.

ie....Barry Bonds, before and after. If you were around for the 70's you saw the freakish builds on Mike Webster, Steve Courson & Steve Furness of the Steelers you noticed something different than anything you had seen before in NFL history, of course, we also have their own admissions and the early deaths of Webster and Furness as a result of their steroid use.

On the other hand, when you look at Jim Langer, Bob Kuechenberg, Larry Little, Norm Evans and Wayne Moore, you don't see the freakish builds or the health problems as they have aged from steroid complications.

it's so funny how you are so insecure when it comes to the Jets knowing you only have ONE more Super Bowl and all the SBs one by the 2 teamns happened 35+ years ago.


You are just a homer, When I look at Jim Langer and Mike Webster I see guys w/ similar builds at similar sizes. Langer was an inch taller- that's the main difference. Larry little, Kuechenbegr and the rest were all huge guys for their era. You have no idea whether they used or not. You are just being a homer. Barry Bonds was easy to tell but plenty of other players it hasn't been easy to tell. Did you know Chuck Knoblauch was using? or Brian Roberts?Denny Neagle? Jason Grimsley, Fernando Vina? Come on. Mark gastineau used steroids and he's still alive and well, just b/c some of the Steelers died young doesn't mean they has users and Miami didn't.

Junc, what up dude?

You jazzed up for Joba's start on Tuesday? I'm stoked.

Sorry to get O/T. I understand the debate here. It's the old, I watched the games versus the stats guy.

I understand both arguments. It's like my dad vs. all the time. I throw stats, he throws "what I see with my own eyes". It's great.

With regards to this, I tend to agree with BlueFin. I don't think stats really talk about the greatness of those teams and those players. While I wouldn't have BlueFin head up my scouting dept. (no offense to you Fin), I'd be more inclined to take that opinion in a bit more regarded light than just statistics.

I understand the analogy you were trying to setup with the MLB and NBA steroids, Junc, but I don't think it was a very good one.

Hi rdhstlr23, how's everything?

I agree somewhat b/c obviously I didn't see those teams live but I have seen enough and read enough to at least be competent in the subject. I just think these "new" revelations are an excuse, i haven't heard the WFL excuse before and now 33 years later it comes out? I just think it's an attemtp to make excuses to help those teams seem even better than they were. We know they were great teams, you don't go unbeaten one year and win back to back titles w/o being great but as great as they were they weren't the Pittsburgh Steelers of the 70s.


I guess I'm excited to see Joba, I feel it's kind of been rushed so I am little nervous and I also feel the expectations on him are a bit unrealistic. I expect him to be a really good SP at some point but many feel it will be right away. I hope it happens right away but if not I hope people do not go nuts.

 

[Itsdahumidity]

Whay does watching it firsthand have to do w/ anything?

Therein lies your problem. You won't get it. Why you choose to treat sports statistics like an exact science w/ a 100% accuracy on-the-field reflection of a player's/team's worth is beyond sad.
BTW, BlueFin I love your response. It basically destroys his "stat" defense:

I don't know, what does scouting players firsthand on film have over reading about them in books?

It means you really don't know what your talking about, your regurgitating stats and that you actually think that tells you the whole story.

it's so funny how you are so insecure when it comes to the Jets knowing you only have ONE more Super Bowl and all the SBs one by the 2 teamns happened 35+ years ago.

What is truly funny is how you constantly try to include us w/ historically bad franchises like the Jest. We only have ONE more SB? Okay, but it is a FACT. You like numbers? Well, of course you do with your stats and all. But here's something to chew on (and it's in the same theme as Blue's sig):
since the merger all of your division rivals have gone to multiple SBs including ex rival Colts. Your jest team went to ONE. Yeah, winning it all is the name of the game but your boys have never represented the AFC.





__________________

 

[nyjunc]

Therein lies your problem. You won't get it. Why you choose to treat sports statistics like an exact science w/ a 100% accuracy on-the-field reflection of a player's/team's worth is beyond sad.
BTW, BlueFin I love your response. It basically destroys his "stat" defense:

That was in response to his nonsenical steroid accusations. You love his respinse saying he saw the Steelrs and dolphins and he could tell? OK

What is truly funny is how you constantly try to include us w/ historically bad franchises like the Jest. We only have ONE more SB? Okay, but it is a FACT. You like numbers? Well, of course you do with your stats and all. But here's something to chew on (and it's in the same theme as Blue's sig):
since the merger all of your division rivals have gone to multiple SBs including ex rival Colts. Your jest team went to ONE. Yeah, winning it all is the name of the game but your boys have never represented the AFC.

I never claimed we were a great franchise historically, it's closer to the opposite BUT it burns the heck out of you guys that you have just ONE more SB Title than us as bad as we have been.

 

[Kendra_Chelsea]

I wasn't around in those days so obviously I didn't see the play, you can use that as your argument but the facts are that Csonka was a declining player whether you want to admit it or not and the facts are that Miami's ground game got BETTER. Would you have been better in '75 & '76? Maybe but would it have guaranteed you another SB? of course not. This is a weal attempt by dolphin fans to try to make those 70s teams even better than they were. Stop holding onto 1972 & 1973, it's as sad as Jet fans trying to hold onto 1968. We can play the what if game too, what of Namath was healthy? If he's healthy we likely would have had another chance to win it all but he wasn't and those 3 decling players left you for whatever reason and you didn't win those SBs nor would you have if they stayed.



I never debated whether Csonka was great or not I just saiod he was declining in those years and the #s show that. Under 4 YPC is not good, when he was at his peak he was near and above 5 which is outstanding.

1) actually saying so doesnt make it fact. You never answered any of my points. Nottingham was not morris and morris complimented Csonka in a way that everyone benifited. You can repeat the same old tired stats and it will still mean nothing.

2) its not that anyone is hanging onto our historic past or even that we are extremely proud of them. You need to look closer to home. it is that you are bitter. this or ANY other 1972 thread would most likely die after ONE page, it is you, bitter as you are that keeps them limping along.

Your team has no past, no real meaning, the only real thing a jets fan can hold onto is a drunken old fool that was good at the luckiest of times. this is NOT miami's fault. If you can get over it maybe you can move on.

 

[nyjunc]

1) actually saying so doesnt make it fact. You never answered any of my points. Nottingham was not morris and morris complimented Csonka in a way that everyone benifited. You can repeat the same old tired stats and it will still mean nothing.

2) its not that anyone is hanging onto our historic past or even that we are extremely proud of them. You need to look closer to home. it is that you are bitter. this or ANY other 1972 thread would most likely die after ONE page, it is you, bitter as you are that keeps them limping along.

Your team has no past, no real meaning, the only real thing a jets fan can hold onto is a drunken old fool that was good at the luckiest of times. this is NOT miami's fault. If you can get over it maybe you can move on.

and again it BURNS yopu guys that you only have ONE more Championship than us despite our pathetic past. "No real past, no real meaning"? While we don't have the past of elite franchise like the Cowboys, Niners, Packers, etc... we did win the single most significant game in Pro Football history sow e do have something in our past. We don't have alot of great years or many Super Bowls like the pats, Steelers, Skins, etc... we do have a pretty important piece of history on our side but that is history, it was a long time ago just like your 2 Championships.

 

[rdhstlr23]

Dolphins vs. Jets AFC Championship 2008!!!

 

[Kendra_Chelsea]

and again it BURNS yopu guys that you only have ONE more Championship than us despite our pathetic past. "No real past, no real meaning"? While we don't have the past of elite franchise like the Cowboys, Niners, Packers, etc... we did win the single most significant game in Pro Football history sow e do have something in our past. We don't have alot of great years or many Super Bowls like the pats, Steelers, Skins, etc... we do have a pretty important piece of history on our side but that is history, it was a long time ago just like your 2 Championships.

Now this is my kind of arguement. Championships huh?
lets look at championships for a moment

MIAMI
Division championships 12
AFC championships 5
NFL championships 2

Total win loss record
382 WINS 261 Losses

JETS
Division championships 4
AFC Championships 1
NFL Championships 1

Total win loss record
330 WINS 406 LOSSES

Wow hmmm. Let’s see, assuming a 16 game NFL season it would take nearly 5 YEARS of PERFECT seasons JUST for the jets to have a 500 record. I believe that’s the definition of loser- isn’t it?

As you can see the jets are not even in the same league when talking about championships in any category. 3 times as many divisional championships, 5 times as many AFC championships, twice as many Super Bowls.

The Dolphins were perfect.

That said the jets would have to play on the top of their game for the next 10 years to even equal Miami’s history (of course to make sure of that you need to go undefeated one year.) so no it doesn’t burn me anything. The reason you live in 72 threads is because you are BITTER about your meaningless team, with its meaningless record hoping you can force a few more people to be BITTER right along with you.

 

[nyjunc]

Super Bowl Titles:

Jets 1
Dolphins 2

Last SB Title:

Jets 1968
Dolphins 1973

That's what counts and if you want to add more recent, relevant history than:

Last 10 seasons:

Div titles:

Jets 2
Dolphins 1

Playoff appearances:

Jets 5
Dolphins 4
(playoff apps since '02 Jets 3 Dolphins zero)

Head to head:

Jets 16-4
Dolphins 4-16

The bottom line is as "great" as you THINK Miami has been and as bad as the Jets have been we only have ONE less Super Bowl Title than you.

You know what also burns you? You guys have turned into the Jets of the 90s. Not only losing badly but getting a new coach every year or 2.

This thread is getting off track, we can discuss this in another thread if you like.