What really happened at pick #19... | Page 3 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

What really happened at pick #19...

Brzezinsky not clipping anyone is really naive. After their success with the Dolphins Tice admitted they tried to do it again but didn't want to over do it and screw up with another team.

As Belichick pointed out in an interview with the NE papers, teams call about moving up and players all the time. The only person who could convince Spielman about other teams going for Carey would be Brzezinsky or he just panicked on his own.

No way in hell can anyone argue sucessfully that NE wanted Carey in the first round with that gapping hole in the middle of their DL. They didn't even draft an OL in this draft.

Dallas could have wanted Carey but the Dallas papers confirmed the Cowboys were not after him. Spielman also acknowledged it was a victory over the Patriots.

The other point, Buffalo called the Dolphins to move up to get Losman and turned down the deal. You don't think they mentioned who was willing to take less??? The Cowboys???

Spielman wanted Carey and did what he though needed to be done to get him. I have no problem with that but he got Hosed doing so.
 
Patriots are probably lying that they did not inquire with the Vikings for pick #19 if you believe Mike Tice the Coach of the Vikings. Also, Patriots offered similar deal (4th pick) that we did. Link -

http://www.boston.com/sports/footba.../coach_denies_he_had_interest_in_guard_carey/

For those of you who wrote that it was obvious that Patriots would draft a Defensive Tackle, well it was not obvious according to the Media in Boston who are questioning why Patriots drafted a DT when they did that last year with their No. 1 pick, Ty Warren.

http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/articles/2004/04/25/nose_job/

It is interesting what one Patriot Veteran had to say in this article.

If the Patriot had a choice of Wilfork or V. Carey they would take Carey because they need OL way more than DL. Keep in mind they play a lot of 3-4 Defense not always requiring 2 DTs.
 
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The common knowledge argument seems really weak. I saw several mock drafts and several predictions on this board that had VC as a Cowboy or as a Pat. Also, the Pats actually had VC on hold. It is very possible, even likely that at least one of those teams was going to draft VC. I don't see it as anybody getting hosed. Miami simply offered the most for the pick and if they were competing against the Pats, it was the least they could have offered and still got the pick.
 
I could care less. We got who we needed. St. Clair is questionable at best as starting RT and McIntosh won't be ready to start. Even if we would have kept that 4th rd pick, we came out good. If we would have picked Poole at 87 it still would have been a great pick. If we got Pape with the 4th rd pick it would have been a good pick. It's over. RS did what he thought he had to do.
 
Merman said:
No way in hell can anyone argue sucessfully that NE wanted Carey in the first round with that gapping hole in the middle of their DL.
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Gaping hole? Try saying that to Keith Traylor, Richard Seymour and top 15 pick Ty Warren.

Your argument holds no water to some, just like it seems to you that the Carey argument holds no water.
 
=Merman
No way in hell can anyone argue sucessfully that NE wanted Carey in the first round with that gapping hole in the middle of their DL. They didn't even draft an OL in this draft.
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After Carey nobody was worth drafting. We talked about it forever.

What gaping hole?

DE-Ty Warren, Jarvis Green, Marquise Hill
NT-Keith Traylor, Dan Klecko, Ethan Kelley
DE-Richard Seymour, Rodney Bailey, Buck Rassmusen

I don't see the gaping hole. :huh:

Although I think if it was going to be anybody taking Carey it would have been Dallas. It's funny how they were interested in trading up until pick 22 came along.
 
What I think you guys are discounting is that the Vikings really wanted their DE, and they would have run an unacceptable risk of not getting him or their apparent alternate (but in no way a priority over DE) in Carey if they traded past #20. That alone makes a very good case for there being a scenario in which Miami could have stayed at 20 and still gotten VC. It's a risk, and RS didn't feel the risk was warranted. I can accept that, but I'm not going to defend it as the only thing he could have done, particularly when I'm not really fond of the philosophy apparently behind the pick in the first place.
 
That is the nature of the draft and the nature of the beasts involved. Bottom line, Rick filled a massive hole at RT with a massive man, a UM can't miss, better than Todd Wade will ever be out and out road grader. Tony Wise now has the job to take this group of talented players and mold them into a quality O-Line. We recouped our fourth rounder and got some good players like Poole and Pape along with some Special Teams demons. Hadnot could surprise and Pape could actually start at Right Guard. Rick got us David Boston, Jeno James and replaced Jay Fiedler with A.J. Feeley, a guy with a much better arm so for now lets say that he's doing his job very well considering that he didn't have too many cards to play going into this draft. All this and we still have Ogun. The D has been tweaked and is better and the O has a new O-Line, David Boston and a Q.B. that can hit long passes. Teams will not be loading up the box on us anymore IMO. By the way we still have time for more moves so let's be positive. We haven't had a decent first rounder in ages and "Big Vernon" gonna be a load at RT for years. Poole could be awesome from what I've seen and heard.
 
Yah and these same people who are saying we were hosed would be the first people here whining if Dallas or NE had jumped ahead of us and grabbed Carey.

There are a couple simple facts that people can't ignore:

A) Carey had been linked to Dallas/NE in many mock drafts
B) Before the phins got on the phone with him Carey was on the phone with New England (stated via Carey). No where have I read about them being on the phone with Wilfork before the 18th/19th pick.
C) Miami has no need for a DT with Bowens/Chester/Zgonina. Bowens in the first year of a new 4 year contract and Chester still relatively young. I don't see a DT grooming pick till next year and even that might not be until the 3rd. No way does NE ever think we are going Wilfork.
D) DT's slid badly and there were still great potential starting DT's in the 3rd (Starks). Everybody knew we were hardcore about the OL as much as Minny was Udeze. If Minny knew we were hardcore about Carey you better damn well believe NE did unless you think NE has a dumber FO then Minny or Miami.
E) The argument about Dallas trading with Buffalo holds no water. We also turned down the Buffalo proposal to get Carey.
F) Dallas states after the first day ends that they are no longer taking trade offers on Larry Allen.
G) Wilfork states the only contact he had with NE was 15 minutes at the Combine.

I easily see many reasons for trading up. There was enough going on there to NOT risk losing Carey. Could you imagine if NE had jumped ahead and taken Carey. You all would be screaming bloody murder. There were NO other RT's out there who had a chance to start Day 1.


By the way. CNNSI's list of "Sudden Impact" players:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/writers/b_duane_cross/04/25/cross.insider/index.html

"Vernon Carey (No. 19)
The Dolphins watched as Philly moved from No. 28 to snare Arkansas T Shawn Andrews at No. 16, so with the top tackles off the board (Oakland took Robert Gallery at No. 2) Miami had to rev up its efforts to land an elite O-lineman. The Dolphins swung a trade with Minnesota to garner the No. 19 pick and selected Vernon Carey, who can play either guard or tackle. John St. Clair is penciled in as the starting right tackle, with Carey behind him, but do not expect Carey to play second fiddle for long. And even if Miami opts to go with St. Clair at tackle, Carey may slide into a starting guard spot this season."
 
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I will once again deny in the strongest terms that I would scream anything if Carey goes at 19 to somebody else. I know this complicates that convenient argument, but I refuse to be lumped in with people who are critical just for the sake of being critical.
 
Jimmy, what you don't understand, or seem to be ignoring is that there is NO SET LIST of BPA. Look where Boomer had Wilfork ranked, and due to his slide, my guess is that many ACTUAL GMs had some of the same feelings with Wilfork.

It goes both ways.

If you have 2 players that are ranked VERY closely, and one fills a major need and the other doesn't, YOU TAKE THE NEED. Only, though, if the players are very closely ranked.
 
I actually sent you a PM about why you didn't get a response somewhere else, but I'll just respond here...

I do not believe in drafting for need. If two guys are close, and I need one more than the other, I still take the better guy. This is my position, and I think anything less is a path to mediocrity. This is BPA.

I acknowledge that it is conceivable that RS just had the list in a different order, but that's not at all what he is saying every time he talks about need. The very fact that need was such a concern to him is something that worries me. Draft for tomorrow, and sign free agents for today. That is the path. The only way I condone need coming in is if you can trade to a point where the need player you draft is the BPA while not sacrificing the value of your draft. That means smart trades. A 4th to move up one in the 1st is probably a decent value in that regard, but a 2nd to move up one would not be.
 
Jimmy James said:
I do not believe in drafting for need. If two guys are close, and I need one more than the other, I still take the better guy. This is my position, and I think anything less is a path to mediocrity. This is BPA.
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What I am saying is that if you have BPA 'a' and BPA 'b', meaning they are VERY close and you project them to have the same impact in the FUTURE, you take the need. You have to agree with this. I want BPA too, but if the 2 players are SO close that your room is split on who is actually better, and their futures are deemed to be just a bright, YOU TAKE NEED. How does that lead to mediocrity. Reaching does this, but Carey vs Wilfork is not a story of reaching.

Jimmy James said:
The only way I condone need coming in is if you can trade to a point where the need player you draft is the BPA while not sacrificing the value of your draft. That means smart trades. A 4th to move up one in the 1st is probably a decent value in that regard, but a 2nd to move up one would not be.
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Rick obviosuly had Carey as his BPA and his biggest need if he felt it necessary to trade up. What other part of the draft has RS not shown that he is a BPA drafter? His actions this weekend show me that he IS a BPA drafted, so don't you think it is at least feasible that CAREY was OUR BPA at that point in time? All Rick's other actions lead me to believe that he was.
 
I don't agree at all. Listen: There are basically three classes of standards -- BPA, need, and blended. You are advocating a blended standard that looks a lot like BPA but is not BPA because it considers need. You have every right to support such a standard, but I do not.

The reports that RS was interested in just Clayton, Andrews, and Carey certainly don't sound like BPA. RS's press conference with Carey certainly doesn't make it sound like he was commited to BPA.

We had talked about offensive line and receiver. And offensive line, as everybody knows, is a pretty major priority for us.
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I think there was possibility, but we were excited that we were able to get what we wanted to get. I think if there was not a player available at 20 and we weren’t able to get Vernon Carey and if it wasn’t someone that we didn’t want, we had a lot of calls on possibly moving down.
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I read that as being concerned with need, not value.
 
How Badly Did the Vikes Want Udeze?

Basically, that's what it boils down to me in any discussion about whether Spielman got jobbed or not. If they were as hot for him as we were for Carey, then he should have simply reminded the Vikes that trading away the spot might mean we trade ours to someone who might want their top choice.
 
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