Zach Overrated: People starting to take notice.

[Pink_Dove]

Originally posted by blackthought

Could we have gotten a better linebacker in that time? Certainly. How many people would take the chance at bringing in competition at the position?

Trotter, Flecther, Vilma, Brookings, Hartwell, all could’ve been ours if the old regime pushed for competition.

(...)
Don’t get your panties in a bunch, you can still bow down to Zach when you see him, many a player would’ve been made a star out of this system. Go figure New England, not scared to duplicate talent at various positions and they win a Super Bowl, what are the odds.

So you’re suggesting, we should’ve drafted or brought in competition at MLB, not only ignoring other gaping holes we’ve had throughout the years but following the Pats way in ‘duplicating talent at various positions’ ?

Well, sorry to tell you but duplicating talent at various positions is not the reason the Pats have built a dynasty, in fact, I’ll argue it’s specifically one of the things they havn’t done. What the Pats have done is find specific and different types of players tailored for their system. If you look at that Pats team, no player is ‘duplicated’ in talent. All are different.
They havn’t brought in another Teddy Bruschi, or Willie Mcginest to play alongside them. What they’ve done is find a set of players who complete each other.
You’ve got that pass-rushing LB in the form of Mcginest, the hybrid jack of all trades in Vrabel, and the solid Bruschi in the middle, you’ve got some smarts in Johnson. Hard hitting safeties in Harrison and a faster younger safety in Wilson. Look at the defensive line, no players are similar. NE has drafted and gotten players in FA, so they can plus them in a hole. Their draft history says, put Zach in a Pats uniform and no way is Teddy Bruschi drafted.

They have drafted tremendously but looking at their draft picks, seldomly will you find the same type of players picked.

All in all, no teams try to replace a Pro-bowler, when they’ve got other holes to fill, it’s just counter productive. If anything I wish we could’ve found someone to complement Zach, a bigger and faster version of Morlon Greenwood instead of the very ordinary Derrick Rodgers and Robert Jones’s of this world.

 

[thedayafter]

• ZT comes from a long line of "fan favorites" at the LB position.... Duhe, Offerdahl, ZT.... all "over-achievers"
• If you take the emotion out of it... ZT got the most out of his abilites and the system..... he is a top 10 LB in the NFL.... no question.
• Is he the most "over-rated" player on the Dolphins... yes.... but how many are even rated.... JT, Seau.... Madison is a long shot to be rated... that's about it....

 

[enigmatics]

So you’re suggesting, we should’ve drafted or brought in competition at MLB, not only ignoring other gaping holes we’ve had throughout the years but following the Pats way in ‘duplicating talent at various positions’ ?

Well, sorry to tell you but duplicating talent at various positions is not the reason the Pats have built a dynasty, in fact, I’ll argue it’s specifically one of the things they havn’t done. What the Pats have done is find specific and different types of players tailored for their system. If you look at that Pats team, no player is ‘duplicated’ in talent. All are different.
They havn’t brought in another Teddy Bruschi, or Willie Mcginest to play alongside them. What they’ve done is find a set of players who complete each other.
You’ve got that pass-rushing LB in the form of Mcginest, the hybrid jack of all trades in Vrabel, and the solid Bruschi in the middle, you’ve got some smarts in Johnson. Hard hitting safeties in Harrison and a faster younger safety in Wilson. Look at the defensive line, no players are similar. NE has drafted and gotten players in FA, so they can plus them in a hole. Their draft history says, put Zach in a Pats uniform and no way is Teddy Bruschi drafted.

They have drafted tremendously but looking at their draft picks, seldomly will you find the same type of players picked.

All in all, no teams try to replace a Pro-bowler, when they’ve got other holes to fill, it’s just counter productive. If anything I wish we could’ve found someone to complement Zach, a bigger and faster version of Morlon Greenwood instead of the very ordinary Derrick Rodgers and Robert Jones’s of this world.

Actually BB and Pioli brought players to New England who could play multiple positions. That's been the main ingredient and key to their success, especially on defense because many of those players are interchangeable, especially when switching up their defensive alignments as many times as they do. Their scheme is not like our traditional 4-3 was. We were as vanilla as it gets to the point where teams knew where we were gonna be. BB's defense requires players who can handle whatever BB feels like throwing at the offense.

 

[Pink_Dove]

Originally posted by enigmatics

Actually BB and Pioli brought players to New England who could play multiple positions. That's been the main ingredient and key to their success, especially on defense because many of those players are interchangeable, especially when switching up their defensive alignments as many times as they do. Their scheme is not like our traditional 4-3 was. We were as vanilla as it gets to the point where teams knew where we were gonna be. BB's defense requires players who can handle whatever BB feels like throwing at the offense.

Agreed but the point is the Pats have found talented players, who are as you said, interchangeable.
They have complemented every player’s ability, by finding someone who will be able to cover up for their mistakes. For example, McGinest’s speed will complement Johnson’s smarts, Harrison’s risk taking and play close to the line, is complemented by the faster E.Wilson.
Therefore, why bring in competition for Zach ? The key would’ve been to bring in complementary players who would’ve made Zach even better, just as the Pats did. Granted, Wanny recognized Zach’s weakness in coverage by drafting Greenwood who’s speciality was coverage but Zach did not get enough help from the other OLB.

 

[Disgustipate]

LOL

I am not the one sitting here blindly praising the guy for his stats. I have given you plenty of perfect examples of how he wasn't there when we needed him to be. I have given examples of how he had a chance to seal the game all he had to do was make a tackle and he couldn't to seal the game.

No one can come up with examples of games he has made the game winning tackle.

I live in this world called reality not fantasy land. I see the truth which is Thomas always fades in the end of the game and he isn't the one who is making the game saving or winning plays.

There's more to Football then stats and Thomas doesn't bring it. Remember, he's the one who needs DT's to truly be effective lol!!!

There are rarely "game winning tackles". You cant name Ray Lewis making a game winning tackle. You cant name Brian Urlacher making a gamewinning tackle. Do it, if you can. Please, by all means, make an attempt.

I can, however, name a place where Zach made two back to back gamewinning tackles. Dec. 30th, 2001 vs. the Atlanta Falcons. Michael Vick's first game. The score is 21-14 Miami, the Falcons are threatening to score and threatening the Dolphins playoff chances from the one yardline. Two consecutive plays from the 1 yardline Zach hits their fullback on the one yardline and wins the game.

As for Zach needing two defensive tackles... ANY MLB in the league needs people keeping blockers off them to be most effective going sideline to sideline. Brian Urlacher has been nowhere near the same since he had Ted Washington, Keith Traylor, Brian Robison, etc.(All huge run stuffers for their positions). Ray Lewis has never been as good as he was behind Tony Siragusa and Sam Adams, that is why the Ravens are moving back to the 4-3.

 

[Disgustipate]

Wo, Wo, Wo elite troll. You and your contingency keep talking about Zach making tackles, and being able to read/predict plays. Tommy made tackles and that was my point, you stick a linebacker in their, with a little more athleticism, speed and give him some time to learn the system and you have a bigger impact player. Tommy did embarrass himself; Lord knows you yourself as an elite troll would have too, if it were your first game. So there in lies the truth, Zach has experience with the system and Tommy didn’t, he made a mistake, stop vicariously living your misfit, underachieving life through Zach and get a clue to what my point is, this team could have gotten better if their was ever legit competition pushing Zach.

Uhhh... You do realize at that point Tommy Hendricks had been in the league, and the exact same system with the Dolphins for 4 years, right? His learning curve was long over. His number was called, and he did not perform.

You’re right the system does funnel things to Zach, reading and recognizing is about internalizing the system, understanding where guys on the defense are being put and scraping to seal predetermined gaps. Kevin Mawae loves Zach and so does Curtis Martin, Cory looked down on Zach a lot times last year, what do you say about that?

Uhhh, yes. You know why the goal of the system is to funnel things to Zach? Because it works. You do realize that when the Dolphins had the pieces for their system, most noticably in 2002 and 2003, TWO players made 100 yards, and not one of them in 2003?

If you could have a top rated run Defense by simply funneling defenders to a certain player, teams would do it. In Miami, it has and does work, and we did it. I'm not quite sure where you are seeing the problem here.

]Trotter, Flecther, Vilma, Brookings, Hartwell, all could’ve been ours if the old regime pushed for competition. [/color]

Are you on drugs, sir? London Fletcher? Jonathan Vilma? You do realize that those two players are the EXACT SAME KIND of linebacker as Zach, smaller guys who cant take on blockers well but excel going from sideline to sideline?

What is wrong with you? You dont seem to know a football from a canalope.

 

[Dors156]

how can u say zach thomas isnt good.he is not overated.he is the 2nd best lb behind ray lewis.i cant believe u guys would think that

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

By gamebreaker, he isn't one to change an outcome of a game. NO teams say" watch out for Zach" . I have yet to hear players say, I hope Zach doesn't hit me" like they do w/ Urlacher and Lewis.


3rd and 5 "run up the middle, Zach will tackle you after getting a first down". Your team missed Zach's sure tackles . Not his ability to create turnovers.


Joe Montana? Are you nuts? Montana may not have had the arms of Marino and Manning but he had the brains of a winner. Again, last night on NFL network most coaches picked Montana as far as a qb they would want on their team. This guy could win big games. Only Shula picked Marino (not surprised)

If Montana was overrated, so is Marino with his records but a not having the ability to win games.

If you take Zach out, Miami wins less. It seems like he did have outcome on the games. Unless wins do not count.

Montana had an amazing team around him. Plus he almost lost a superbowl by throwing a ball right in the defenders hands.

Most caoches picked Montana, showing that Montana is over rated. Thank you for proving my point.

 

[MexDolfan]

Using the words Dave and very good coach in the same paragraph is a sin. Dave is everything but a good coach...a good guy? sure...but he was/is a lousy head coach. His track record proves he doesn't belong on an NFL sideline as the guy in charge.

As far as Zach is concerned...plain and simple...he is still a very good LB...but I don't think he is suited for a 3-4 as he needs space to play and O-linemen off of him.

Agree, the 3-4 scheme needs bigger LB. But remember that Couch Saban has a mix of schemes in mind, he won't use a 3-4 every single play, and most of the mix will still be 4-3, where ZT is a star.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

Agree, the 3-4 scheme needs bigger LB. But remember that Couch Saban has a mix of schemes in mind, he won't use a 3-4 every single play, and most of the mix will still be 4-3, where ZT is a star.

Like one of the best middle linebackers to have ever played in a 3-4 Sam Mills.

 

[Zeke0123]

Like one of the best middle linebackers to have ever played in a 3-4 Sam Mills.

that is my favorite all-time D shame Mora squandered it.

 

[Justasportsfan]

If you take Zach out, Miami wins less. It seems like he did have outcome on the games. Unless wins do not count.

What you will hear when Zach is around is "Tackled by Zach Thomas AFTER a gain of 3,4,5,6" Without Zach "tackled by ???? after a gain of 10,20.....yards"
That's what Zach brings. You will hardly hear "Forced fumble by Zach thomas", "intercepted by Zach thomas" (his biggest weakness). "huge hit by Zach thomas".

Seau was great during his prime. Zach isn't close, hence he isn't great.

what happened to Zach when he didn't have your starting DT's. He got injured. The undersized lb'er couldn't handle the hit's from having to make up for the lack of DT's.

Montana had an amazing team around him. Plus he almost lost a superbowl by throwing a ball right in the defenders hands.

Drew had and amazing cast around him. What has he done? Qb's make wr's and vice versa.

Most caoches picked Montana, showing that Montana is over rated. Thank you for proving my point.

I'd rather take the opinion of HOF coaches over yours anyday.

 

[Dol-Fan Dupree]

What you will hear when Zach is around is "Tackled by Zach Thomas AFTER a gain of 3,4,5,6" Without Zach "tackled by ???? after a gain of 10,20.....yards"
That's what Zach brings. You will hardly here "Forced fumble by Zach thomas", "intercepted by Zach thomas" (his biggest weakness).

Here's proof, what happened to Zach when he did have your starting DT's. He got injured. The undersized lb'er couldn't handle the hit's from having to make up for the lack of DT's.
Drew had and amazing cast around him. What has he done? Qb's make wr's and vice versa.

I'd rather take the opinion of HOF coaches over yours anyday.

He gets hurt every year. How do you think I know the team sufferes without him?

I also hear a lot of "Tackles by Zach thomas after gains of zero, 1 or 2 yards"

I believe a lot of coaches would rather have a linebacker that consitantly makes tackles rather than one who misses a couples but makes an interception or two. That is also the thing. A good year for linebackers is 2 intercpetions and 2 forced fumbles. It is not like they make an int half of the games. Plus only half of the forced fumbles turn into turn overs. They are just pretty stats fans use to try to prove their point when they realize they haven't watched enough to make an honest assestment.

Imagine Brett Farve with Jerry Rice. That is too scary.

There is a lot of people's opinion I would rather take then yours. What does that matter?

 

[Dphins4me]

If you take Zach out, Miami wins less. It seems like he did have outcome on the games. Unless wins do not count..

Better go back & check Miami's record prior to last year to see when they sucked even with Zach..

Miami is something like 7-4 in games Zach missed.

 

[Disgustipate]

What you will hear when Zach is around is "Tackled by Zach Thomas AFTER a gain of 3,4,5,6" Without Zach "tackled by ???? after a gain of 10,20.....yards"
That's what Zach brings. You will hardly hear "Forced fumble by Zach thomas", "intercepted by Zach thomas" (his biggest weakness). "huge hit by Zach thomas".

Uhh, Zach makes plenty of short yardage stops, thank you very much. Zach, as MOST linebackers do, make tackles in the 3-5 yard range. You do understand that average lies somewhere in there, correct?

If you think Zach's biggest weakest is in coverage please stop typing now because you have no idea what you are talking about. He doesnt have the speed to stay with faster RBs man to man, but is very widely regarded as one of the best zone coverage linebackers in the game.

I dont understand where some of you people come from, whom seem to be able to judge the game not on the players actual merits but instead fantasy football stats and Stuart Scott voiced highlight reels.