2005 World Series: Houston Astros vs. Chicago White Sox

[Ray Finkle]

he didn't fake an injury in '86, the only person who said he wanted out was McNamar and he was just trying to save his own behind. Roger pitched great in a Game 7 on the road vs. Arizona for us- for that I will always be grateful and his WS era is tremendous.

He DID fake an injury in 1986. I personally know players on that Red Sox team as well as the Red Sox trainer and everyone said Clemens had no blister on his finger which he claimed and one never showed up. Trust me on this one, he did fake his injury as a way out.

No question about it he pitched a great Game 7 vs. Diamond Backs and also a very good Game 3 in 2003 vs. the Red Sox, other than that you can't really name the other great post season performances where he did well (I don't count the WS Game 4 vs. Braves, he didn't have a lot of pressure on him because the series was over already).

 

[Roman529]

Looks like it is over for the Astros...they would have to win 4 out of 5 now and the White Sox pitchers won't let that happen.

 

[nyjunc]

He DID fake an injury in 1986. I personally know players on that Red Sox team as well as the Red Sox trainer and everyone said Clemens had no blister on his finger which he claimed and one never showed up. Trust me on this one, he did fake his injury as a way out.

No question about it he pitched a great Game 7 vs. Diamond Backs and also a very good Game 3 in 2003 vs. the Red Sox, other than that you can't really name the other great post season performances where he did well (I don't count the WS Game 4 vs. Braves, he didn't have a lot of pressure on him because the series was over already).

I still don't buy the fake injury excuse, until I see some proof I won't believe it.

You want to discount '99 atl? Ok what about '00 at Seattle? It was as dominating a postseason performance as there has ever been by a pitcher then waht about the '00 WS against the Mets? Another dominating performance. He has had his moments and has done great in the WS coming into this series w/ a career 1.90 ERA in 7 WS starts.

 

[Ray Finkle]

I still don't buy the fake injury excuse, until I see some proof I won't believe it.

You want to discount '99 atl? Ok what about '00 at Seattle? It was as dominating a postseason performance as there has ever been by a pitcher then waht about the '00 WS against the Mets? Another dominating performance. He has had his moments and has done great in the WS coming into this series w/ a career 1.90 ERA in 7 WS starts.

That's fine if you don't believe the fake injury, but it's totally legit there's no question about it. I honestly wish I could somehow get you proof but all I have is my word (which I'm sure isn't good enough for anyone and I don't blame anyone if they want proof).

He's still not a good big game pitcher, I'm sorry. He had a lot of success with the Yankees in the post season no doubt however in my opinion that's because he didn't have to carry the ball all by himself like he did in Boston or in even with Houston. He's a Hall of Famer so he should be close to lights out in the playoffs but he's not his record although he has a lot of wins he's only 2 or 3 games above .500. Like I said before, I wouldn't want him with the ball in a big game no matter how great he is. He just doesn't have the grapefruits.

 

[nyjunc]

That's fine if you don't believe the fake injury, but it's totally legit there's no question about it. I honestly wish I could somehow get you proof but all I have is my word (which I'm sure isn't good enough for anyone and I don't blame anyone if they want proof).

He's still not a good big game pitcher, I'm sorry. He had a lot of success with the Yankees in the post season no doubt however in my opinion that's because he didn't have to carry the ball all by himself like he did in Boston or in even with Houston. He's a Hall of Famer so he should be close to lights out in the playoffs but he's not his record although he has a lot of wins he's only 2 or 3 games above .500. Like I said before, I wouldn't want him with the ball in a big game no matter how great he is. He just doesn't have the grapefruits.

you act like he was bad in Boston, he pitched very well in '86 only giving up 4 ER in 2 starts against the Mets and he wasn't bad in '88 & '90(outside of getting ejected). pedro was never truly a big game pitcher either, outside of '99 Game 5 vs. Cle he never showed up when the pressure was there. '99 he was great against the yanks but you guys were down 2-0 and that series was over, '03 he was getting beaten up when he hit Garcia then in game 7 blew the 5-2 lead, in '04 the he was ok in Game 2 but left losing in game 5 and gave us some life in relief in game 7. yeah he was great against SL but that was up 2-0, Clemens has had more big postseason moments than Pedro.

 

[FaninPatsyLand]

People, look at the numbers... It's quite obvious that Clemens isn't the same pitcher in the Divisonal and League Championship Series as he has been throughout his entire career.

 

[nyjunc]

People, look at the numbers... It's quite obvious that Clemens isn't the same pitcher in the Divisonal and League Championship Series as he has been throughout his entire career.

There's no question about it but he has been a big game pitcher in his career.

 

[Ray Finkle]

you act like he was bad in Boston, he pitched very well in '86 only giving up 4 ER in 2 starts against the Mets and he wasn't bad in '88 & '90(outside of getting ejected). pedro was never truly a big game pitcher either, outside of '99 Game 5 vs. Cle he never showed up when the pressure was there. '99 he was great against the yanks but you guys were down 2-0 and that series was over, '03 he was getting beaten up when he hit Garcia then in game 7 blew the 5-2 lead, in '04 the he was ok in Game 2 but left losing in game 5 and gave us some life in relief in game 7. yeah he was great against SL but that was up 2-0, Clemens has had more big postseason moments than Pedro.

When did Pedro Martinez get brought up in this? Of course Clemens has had more big postseason moments than Pedro. Clemens has been in the post season more times giving him more chances. Pedro's been in the post season 3 times and pitched what 11 games compared to Clemen's zillion appearance. However Pedro's pitching performances in 1999 outweights ANYTHING Clemens has ever done in the playoffs. Pedro pitched no hit ball while hurt in Game 5 vs. a good hitting Indians teams and then only gave up 1 hit and gave the Yankees their only loss that post season. He was dominate while hurt with a bad shoulder. 1 hit in 10 plus innings against two very good line ups is very impressive.

The fact is is that when Clemens was in Boston, in the playoffs he was a baby and never wanted the ball. Faking an injury and basically begging the ump to throw him out of the game show it. I know you don't believe me about either of those things (which is fine) however I know many players, coaches and people inside the Red Sox organization to know the truth about Roger. I'm not BSing or making things up to try to put the guy down, especially since I like him.

 

[Ray Finkle]

There's no question about it but he has been a big game pitcher in his career.

He is a big game pitcher, I just feel he's slightly overrated in the "big game" tag. And like I said I wouldn't want him pitching for me in a do or die situation. But that's just me. I'd rather give the ball to Pettite, Schilling, Wells, Smoltz, and even Oswalt just to name a few.

 

[MikeO]

He is a big game pitcher, I just feel he's slightly overrated in the "big game" tag. And like I said I wouldn't want him pitching for me in a do or die situation. But that's just me. I'd rather give the ball to Pettite, Schilling, Wells, Smoltz, and even Oswalt just to name a few.

Wells? Your kidding? You would rather have Wells in a big game over Clemans? please!

 

[nyjunc]

He is a big game pitcher, I just feel he's slightly overrated in the "big game" tag. And like I said I wouldn't want him pitching for me in a do or die situation. But that's just me. I'd rather give the ball to Pettite, Schilling, Wells, Smoltz, and even Oswalt just to name a few.

Wells was sure a big game pitcher for us in '02 & '03, he was thrashed against Anaheim in '02 and then cost us the WS by pussing out after an inning in the '03 WS. other than that he has been a good postseason pitcher but life on the line I'd take Clemens. Everyone remembers all of Andy's good starts such as '96 WS Game 5 or '00 WS game 5 but they forget '96 WS Game 1 and a bunch of other disasters. Clemens only had the disaster against Bos in '99 and Ana in '02.

Schilling yes
Smoltz yes
Wells no
Pettitte close but no
oswalt right now but overall no.

 

[Ray Finkle]

Wells? Your kidding? You would rather have Wells in a big game over Clemans? please!

No I'm not kidding, I just don't trust Clemens. He doesn't have the balls, he's wimped out before with the Red Sox and even wimped out on Saturday. If people are going to jump on Wells for the 2003 WS, I'm surprised no one is jumping on Clemens this year. What's the difference between the two guys?

 

[nyjunc]

No I'm not kidding, I just don't trust Clemens. He doesn't have the balls, he's wimped out before with the Red Sox and even wimped out on Saturday. If people are going to jump on Wells for the 2003 WS, I'm surprised no one is jumping on Clemens this year. What's the difference between the two guys?

The difference is Clemens helped turn around a franchise and is a key reason Hou was even in the postseason and he wasn't horrible in the postseason and didn't beg out after an inning.

 

[Ray Finkle]

The difference is Clemens helped turn around a franchise and is a key reason Hou was even in the postseason and he wasn't horrible in the postseason and didn't beg out after an inning.

I agree with the turning around the franchise thing because he gets some free passes in Houston like sometimes not going on a road trip when he's not scheduled to pitch so he can stay home with his family (at least that was the case last year). However I disagree with the begging out after an inning, because Clemens left after 2 innings. In my opinion its the same thing that Wells did (remember that Wells pitched very well for the Yankees up until that point in the 2003 playoffs). So maybe Houston fans won't get on Clemens for that but I don't see how people can say it wasn't ok for Wells but it was ok for Roger. In my mind its the same thing pretty much.

Of course since you're a Yankee fan the Wells thing bothers you more because he hurt the team by not pitching. Just like how as a Red Sox fan we're mad at Clemens for wimping out in 86 and 90.

 

[nyjunc]

I agree with the turning around the franchise thing because he gets some free passes in Houston like sometimes not going on a road trip when he's not scheduled to pitch so he can stay home with his family (at least that was the case last year). However I disagree with the begging out after an inning, because Clemens left after 2 innings. In my opinion its the same thing that Wells did (remember that Wells pitched very well for the Yankees up until that point in the 2003 playoffs). So maybe Houston fans won't get on Clemens for that but I don't see how people can say it wasn't ok for Wells but it was ok for Roger. In my mind its the same thing pretty much.

Of course since you're a Yankee fan the Wells thing bothers you more because he hurt the team by not pitching. Just like how as a Red Sox fan we're mad at Clemens for wimping out in 86 and 90.

In '90 you had no shot against that A's team but in '86 Roger may have asked out but he pitched well for you and set you up to win. It was not his fault you blew Games 6 & 7.