Armando: Ireland job doesn't appear at risk

[Pinkboy]

There have been plenty of reports that Jeff Ireland and Bill Parcells only disagreed on personnel once or twice. They agreed on everything. The amount to which Ireland was able to influence who the Dolphins took has been understated out of sheer convenience to an argument.

Exactly.

Nevermind the fact that Ireland was on sportsradio in 2009 blatantly saying HE scouted AND selected Patrick Turner and John Nalbone, and that HE was the leader of the pack to select those players, along with Vontae. IReland said this himself. Just days after the draft. In that draft it was only Pat White who Parcells loved for years and told all his friends, including Charlie Casserly that he'd take Pat White in the 2nd no matter what (a full year before White came out of the draft). And Ireland even intimated back then that White was a guy the "organization liked", not himself.. HOWEVER, there were many players where he said HE selected, and himself loved (steered away from the "organization" talk)... and blatantly said WHY HE loved said players. So they were his picks.

Ireland said he loved Patrik Turner because Ireland said HE HIMSELF learned that guys with short legs and long torso's who are tall have better mobility in short areas,, and said despite the fact that Turner didn;t show good separation in college, he thought from what he saw from him that Turner will be able to do that and be very good in this league.

Ireland has given many tidbits on players he loved and selected over the years, RIGHT after they were selected by the team. IF People PAID ATTENTION over the years they'd know this... but of course, it's dolphin fans so what do you expect ?? It's beyond stupid when people just say "oh, they were all parcells picks".. The old fart was asleep during those drafts in the draft room. Literally sleeping .. there were multiple reports of this.

Seriously, how stupid can people possibly be !? Most fans have no clue how to listen to someone or read into anyone properly. No sense of psychology attributes whatsoever to speak of... CK, it's like dealing with kindergarten kids here most of the time. Just now in another post someone came up with the word "bordersome" :facepalm:

 

[ckparrothead]

Exactly.

Nevermind the fact that Ireland was on sportsradio in 2009 blatantly saying HE scouted AND selected Patrick Turner and John Nalbone, and that HE was the leader of the pack to select those players, along with Vontae. IReland said this himself. Just days after the draft. In that draft it was only Pat White who Parcells loved for years and told all his friends, including Charlie Casserly that he'd take Pat White in the 2nd no matter what (a full year before White came out of the draft). And Ireland even intimated back then that White was a guy the "organization liked", not himself.. HOWEVER, there were many players where he said HE selected, and himself loved (steered away from the "organization" talk)... and blatantly said WHY HE loved said players. So they were his picks.

Ireland said he loved Patrik Turner because Ireland said HE HIMSELF learned that guys with short legs and long torso's who are tall have better mobility in short areas,, and said despite the fact that Turner didn;t show good separation in college, he thought from what he saw from him that Turner will be able to do that and be very good in this league.

Ireland has given many tidbits on players he loved and selected over the years, RIGHT after they were selected by the team. IF People PAID ATTENTION over the years they'd know this... but of course, it's dolphin fans so what do you expect ?? It's beyond stupid when people just say "oh, they were all parcells picks".. The old fart was asleep during those drafts in the draft room. Literally sleeping .. there were multiple reports of this.

Seriously, how stupid can people possibly be !? Most fans have no clue how to listen to someone or read into anyone properly. No sense of psychology whatsoever.

Sort of like if people paid any attention they'd realize that Jeff Ireland was the driving force behind the selection of Jake Long. All indications are that where Parcells was torn on whether to pick a quarterback, Jeff Ireland was not. He was all about Jake Long the whole way.

People forget that prior to taking Jake Long, Bill Parcells had never taken an OL that high. In fact he famously traded out of the pick where Orlando Pace was taken (#1 overall), and then traded again out of the pick where Walter Jones was taken (#6 overall). They took LB James Farrior.

 

[Zounds]

Yes and the NFL league office is one of those people that have seen his contract and they verified that he had final say authority on personnel written into his contract otherwise they would have given Jerry Jones the right to refuse the Dolphins' interview request, which he had every intention of doing. Jerry Jones' hands were tied because the Dolphins were offering him a full GM title including final say authority over personnel. The Dolphins had to craft Bill Parcells' contract wording carefully so that it wouldn't contradict that authority. Both contracts were reviewed by the league.

Of course he had to be given a promotion to make it a legal move, but putting "final say" language in a contract is not what constitutes a promotion. Many GM's dont have final say, and going from a scounting director to a GM position without "final say" is still a promotion and legal move.

Want an example? Look at Les Snead. He was Director of Personnel for the Atlanta Falcons, and recently took the GM job with the Rams and does not have final say (Jeff Fisher does) and it is still considered a promotion. Because Ireland was given a promotion does not mean he was given "final say". Thats just crazy talk.

 

[Nublar7]

We can argue until we are blue in the face about how much power Ireland had between 2008-2010, but all that matters is what Ross thinks. The guy who paid Ireland and Parcells paychecks and knew exactly who was calling the shots on certain things and who wasn't. The fact that he has approached Ireland as pretty much having a clean slate after Parcells left speaks volumes of who was actually calling the shots when it came to building the team. Doesn't mean Ireland sat there and did nothing, but this was Parcells baby when he was here, not Ireland's baby. I am sure Ireland agreed on choices, but the one who pulled the trigger was Parcells. I think Parcells viewed Ireland more as a scout then an equal voice. Ireland was his right hand man, he definitely was not in charge.

 

[ckparrothead]

Of course he had to be given a promotion to make it a legal move, but putting "final say" language in a contract is not what constitutes a promotion.

On this, you appear to be ignorant of the league rules. The league rules dictate that in order for a front office member to be unblockable for interview with another team, the offer must be for a general manager position with final say authority on personnel. Those are the rules. Now you know.

Want an example? Look at Les Snead. He was Director of Personnel for the Atlanta Falcons, and recently took the GM job with the Rams and does not have final say (Jeff Fisher does) and it is still considered a promotion. Because Ireland was given a promotion does not mean he was given "final say". Thats just crazy talk.

The Falcons willingly let Les Snead go. Jerry Jones is ON RECORD saying he did not want to give up Jeff Ireland until after the 2008 draft, but he had to because his hands were tied by the rules.

 

[Nublar7]

Of course he had to be given a promotion to make it a legal move, but putting "final say" language in a contract is not what constitutes a promotion. Many GM's dont have final say, and going from a scounting director to a GM position without "final say" is still a promotion and legal move.

Want an example? Look at Les Snead. He was Director of Personnel for the Atlanta Falcons, and recently took the GM job with the Rams and does not have final say (Jeff Fisher does) and it is still considered a promotion. Because Ireland was given a promotion does not mean he was given "final say". Thats just crazy talk.

Another good example was when Mueller was the GM when Saban was the head coach. Saban was in charge despite the title Mueller had.

 

[Nublar7]

On this, you appear to be ignorant of the league rules. The league rules dictate that in order for a front office member to be unblockable for interview with another team, the offer must be for a general manager position with final say authority on personnel. Those are the rules. Now you know.



The Falcons willingly let Les Snead go. Jerry Jones is ON RECORD saying he did not want to give up Jeff Ireland until after the 2008 draft, but he had to because his hands were tied by the rules.

it was a contract legality to pry Ireland from Dallas. Behind closed doors Parcells wasn't "oh golly, I wrote in your contract that you have final say, so you can trump me, your boss, on all decisions". No, it was more like "what do you think about this player Jeff?" and "this is what we are going to do Jeff." Parcells was in charge, doesn't matter what was written into the contract.

 

[Spesh]

We can argue until we are blue in the face about how much power Ireland had between 2008-2010, but all that matters is what Ross thinks. The guy who paid Ireland and Parcells paychecks and knew exactly who was calling the shots on certain things and who wasn't. The fact that he has approached Ireland as pretty much having a clean slate after Parcells left speaks volumes of who was actually calling the shots when it came to building the team. Doesn't mean Ireland sat there and did nothing, but this was Parcells baby when he was here, not Ireland's baby. I am sure Ireland agreed on choices, but the one who pulled the trigger was Parcells. I think Parcells viewed Ireland more as a scout then an equal voice. Ireland was his right hand man, he definitely was not in charge.

Ross also gave Tony Sparano a contract extension.

Anyways, i dont think there will be a time in which i am not amused by the entire "Ireland didnt make the final call so hes scott free" logical fallacy. Just the thinking behind it kills me. If a CEO didnt do an ounce of work yet collected fat paychecks for years and received credit for anything that went right, i imagine many of the posters on this forum would be annoyed or insulted. But when its Jeff Ireland, not only is it acceptable its a source of comfort.

Ive addressed my feelings on "Ireland never worked" before, so ill just copy and paste:

-Picking and choosing which events Ireland is responsible for.

There isn’t much to say about this subject that hasn’t already been said. Many on this board feel the Pat White selection wasn’t Jeff Irelands fault. Many of those same people also make posts praising Ireland for signing Cameron Wake. I’m always amused by this, seeing as how both those events happened in the same offseason.

Jeff Ireland has held the title of General Manager since 2008. He has been paid accordingly for that position. If he can literally cash the checks of a general manager, he should be held accountable as general manager.

http://www.finheaven.com/forums/showthread.php?329950-The-Ireland-Mythology-Index&highlight=

 

[ckparrothead]

Keep in mind what we're talking about here. Front offices are generally helpful to their personnel people in terms of accepting new promotions elsewhere. For instance, Jerry Jones could very well have stood his ground and not allowed Brian Gaine to leave for a promotion with the Dolphins. He had every right to squat on Gaine. But with Ireland already gone there was little point in standing in Gaine's way.

However, every now and then a team has a reason not to let a guy seek a promotion and they can exercise their right of refusal. The league has rules set up to override those rights of refusal in cases where someone is being hired either as a HEAD COACH or as a GENERAL MANAGER. The General Manager MUST have final say authority written into his contract in order to qualify for the exemption.

In this particular case with Jeff Ireland, Jerry Jones did NOT want to give him up even if it was for a promotion. He is on record saying that if he had a choice it would have been to make Jeff stay on through the 2008 Draft at which point he would allow him to go on his merry way and seek the promotion he desired. His hands were tied by the league exemption which was activated because the Dolphins inserted final say authority into Jeff's contract, while simultaneously being careful with the wording of Parcells' contract to make sure it didn't step on the GM's final say authority. In fact, later when there were rumors that Parcells had final say authority, Jerry Jones went on record saying he had better not because the league told him he was not allowed to refuse Ireland's promotion because Ireland had final say in his contract, and that if it's true that Parcells has final say in his contract and not Jeff Ireland then he will be raising a grievance. But it wasn't true. The Dolphins were careful to word it correctly.

 

[Zounds]

On this, you appear to be ignorant of the league rules. The league rules dictate that in order for a front office member to be unblockable for interview with another team, the offer must be for a general manager position with final say authority on personnel. Those are the rules. Now you know.

The Falcons willingly let Les Snead go. Jerry Jones is ON RECORD saying he did not want to give up Jeff Ireland until after the 2008 draft, but he had to because his hands were tied by the rules.

Those are NOT the rules and you nkow it. There is no language in the NFL bylaws that says a GM has to have "final say". You cant just go around making up rules. There are many examples of GMs that were promoted to the position without getting "final say".

 

[ckparrothead]

it was a contract legality to pry Ireland from Dallas. Behind closed doors Parcells wasn't "oh golly, I wrote in your contract that you have final say, so you can trump me, your boss, on all decisions". No, it was more like "what do you think about this player Jeff?" and "this is what we are going to do Jeff." Parcells was in charge, doesn't matter what was written into the contract.

The difference between the two of us on this issue is that I'm not pretending I know the exact nature of the interaction between the two men. I'm not assuming one way or another. You are. Even though you've met neither man. You've seen neither in action, scouting players. You've overheard no conversations between the two. Yet you outline pretty detailed imaginings as to how the interaction between the two men went. Hell I spent a week standing no more than 5 or 6 feet away from the two men while they scouted players at Shrine practice, and I overheard half a dozen more conversations and interactions between the two, and even so I'm not out here talking in detail about "how it worked" between them.

The contracts are the only part of this discussion that isn't just assumption and imagination. And the contracts tell me that if Ireland ever got overruled on something he cared about, it's because he chose to lay down even though he had the authority to stick to his guns.

---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------

Those are NOT the rules and you nkow it. There is no language in the NFL bylaws that says a GM has to have "final say". You cant just go around making up rules. There are many examples of GMs that were promoted to the position without getting "final say".

LOL. Yes, those are the rules. Do some research.

 

[ckparrothead]

I'm benevolent, so I've done the research for you. The controlling language is in the NFL's "Anti-Tampering" policy which dictates that in order for a team to be unable to block the hiring of a front office position, the position must QUALIFY as a "General Manager" position as defined by said Anti-Tampering policy language. The language is as follows:

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...T12IA4&usg=AFQjCNG-6nZNwpczwJK5vHomx_O_8cobLA

High-Level Club Employees (Non-Player, Non-Coach). The following provisions
govern in cases of high-level club employees (non-player, non-coach), defined for
purposes of this Policy as club president, general manager, and persons with
equivalent responsibilities and authority. A club president is defined as an
individual who shall have authority and responsibility for the organization,
direction, and management of day-to-day operations of the club and who reports
directly to the controlling owner. A general manager is defined as an individual
who has (1) the authority over all personnel decisions related to the signing of free
agents, the selection of players in the College Draft, trades, terminations, and
related decisions, and (2) the responsibility for coordinating other football
activities with the Head Coach (see “Administrative Review,” page 12, for
disputes concerning this definition):

Under Contract. Except as may be otherwise provided in such contract, a
club is not obligated to grant another club permission to discuss employment
with a high-level employee if he or she is under contract, even if the second
club is prepared to offer him or her a position of greater responsibility within
the category of High-Level Club Employees. Clubs may negotiate a right of
first refusal.

NOW you know.

 

[Nublar7]

The difference between the two of us on this issue is that I'm not pretending I know the exact nature of the interaction between the two men. I'm not assuming one way or another. You are. Even though you've met neither man. You've seen neither in action, scouting players. You've overheard no conversations between the two. Yet you outline pretty detailed imaginings as to how the interaction between the two men went. Hell I spent a week standing no more than 5 or 6 feet away from the two men while they scouted players at Shrine practice, and I overheard half a dozen more conversations and interactions between the two, and even so I'm not out here talking in detail about "how it worked" between them.

The contracts are the only part of this discussion that isn't just assumption and imagination. And the contracts tell me that if Ireland ever got overruled on something he cared about, it's because he chose to lay down even though he had the authority to stick to his guns.

---------- Post added at 05:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:47 PM ----------



LOL. Yes, those are the rules. Do some research.

First off, you are assuming what is in the contract, you don't have a copy in your hands or were 5 or 6 feet away when Ireland signed it. All we have is what we can see and that is Parcells was hired to run the show and Ireland was hired under him. Remember Parcells famously always wanted to "buy the groceries". Why would he take over the football department and then hand those duties off to Ireland? Wouldn't happen. Ireland was a part of the process, but you are naive if you think Parcells sat back and did nothing. Also we can see that Ross has pretty much written off what happened during 2008-2010 as Parcells doing, otherwise Ireland would still not be here. Remember Ross is the guy who is probably 1 to 2 feet from Ireland and Parcells whenever he wanted to be. We also wouldn't have gotten a press release in September of 2010 that Parcells was turning over full control to Ireland if he already had it.

 

[Fin Fan in Cali]

I didn't like Ryan at first but liked what showed. I also like Vernon and Miller. Will have to see how Martin does and what happens with Jake. Your thoughts bro? I would like to see Miller used more.

 

[ckparrothead]

First off, you are assuming what is in the contract, you don't have a copy in your hands or were 5 or 6 feet away when Ireland signed it. All we have is what we can see and that is Parcells was hired to run the show and Ireland was hired under him. Remember Parcells famously always wanted to "buy the groceries". Why would he take over the football department and then hand those duties off to Ireland? Wouldn't happen. Ireland was a part of the process, but you are naive if you think Parcells sat back and did nothing. Also we can see that Ross has pretty much written off what happened during 2008-2010 as Parcells doing, otherwise Ireland would still not be here. Remember Ross is the guy who is probably 1 to 2 feet from Ireland and Parcells whenever he wanted to be. We also wouldn't have gotten a press release in September of 2010 that Parcells was turning over full control to Ireland if he already had it.

That moment when you realize that while you were typing a response, someone posted a response that completely proved what you were saying wrong, before you could finish and hit submit.

Read up, my friend.