Barry Jackson Notes: Future of the Cap, Pre Training Camp Notes, RT and Pennington

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Hayden Fox, Jun 30, 2013.

  1. Hayden Fox

    Hayden Fox Love Creating Turnovers Donator

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  2. Bick

    Bick Active Member

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    Good stuff, can't wait for the season to start.
     
  3. CONVIGLIONUS

    CONVIGLIONUS Well-Known Member

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    I would prefer Pennington be the QB coach opposed to that young kid they have.
     
  4. uk_dolfan

    uk_dolfan Founder of the FH Adam Gase fan club Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    re of the Cap, Pre Training Camp Notes, RT and Pennington

    If you dont know his name how can you even pretend to know how good or bad of a coach he is?
     
  5. PBay Fin Fan

    PBay Fin Fan Well-Known Member

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    Mike Sherman's son in law.
     
  6. Rhoadsy13

    Rhoadsy13 Starter

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    Great Article. LOVE to see how Ireland & Aponte worked the cap in order to avoid cutting good players to get under the cap next year.
     
  7. uk_dolfan

    uk_dolfan Founder of the FH Adam Gase fan club Moderator Finheaven VIP

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    The interesting thing next year will be Grimes.

    Soliai and Odrick will be kept at DT, Misi will get a deal, Jones will get a team friendly deal or get tagged and Clemmons will either be signed or we will draft someone. Keller, well we shall see how he performs and see how healthy he is, his contract shouldn't be an issue if we want an extension. Patterson, Marshall and Carpenter could all be cut to add even more room to pass over to next year so im not concerned about any of these deals.

    If Grimes comes back the player he was before he was injured... he will need a big contract and we would be mad to let him go. That deal could be very interesting
     
  8. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    $5.5 mil against the cap in 2014 for a backup qb like moore is too much...they either need to restructure that or let him walk provided tannehill shows the development i expect...way too much

    penciling in dion jordan as a starting every down de in 2014 is awfully rich...i hope he weighs at least 260 by then at that height...i would still think olivier vernon will have the early down edge...2015 i can see it...

    odrick moving back to permanent dt is a no brainer...i bet they let starks, keller, incog, and maybe clemons go after this season...if grimes stays healthy i think he's a guy retained on a year to year basis...30 plus year old corners who have had acchilles recently don't break the bank

    miami has to seriously consider losing that dmitri patterson cap #...either approach him with a cut or let him go but i bet it depends on how the rookie cbs show in training camp...no use doing anything now...see how it plays out

    carpenters got one foot out the door already...if it's close to even it's over...they'll move on and roll with the cap savings with sturgis...

    tannehill dirt cheap on this rookie contract...dirt cheap...2 years from now he'll be getting a $80 plus million dollar one from us so plan ahead cap wise
     
  9. TealAttack13

    TealAttack13 A True Fan

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    Really solid write up. I agree that Pennington should be a QB coach. Would love for him to be ours but I would like to see how Tanny progresses before jumping to that conclusion.
     
  10. SF Dolphin Fan

    SF Dolphin Fan Seasoned Veteran

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    Hey Hoops. Based on this offseason I think Miami keeps Starks over Solai. Starks and Odrick can both rush the passer and it looks like Miami wants everyone in the front seven to pressure the qb. Obviously, depends on the season Starks has and his age now needs to be factored in. DT could also be a first round pick.
     
  11. LennyV

    LennyV Rookie

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    Two parts to the equation as far as Chad P being QB coach, does he want to invest that level of time ? I believe he has kids and may want to be available for them.
     
  12. MadDog 88

    MadDog 88 TANNERECTION!!!! Donator

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    More positive news on Binns. Don't be shocked when he makes the 53. He is having a very nice sounding off season.
     
  13. phinfan1983

    phinfan1983 Well-Known Member

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    Pass on Mr. Dink and Dunk
     
  14. Nublar7

    Nublar7 Retired Finheaven VIP

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    I would definitely shop Matt Moore next offseason for a draft pick. If they can get a 4th or 5th round pick for him you have to pull the trigger and can elevate Devlin to the #2 in 2014. Then they can use a mid round pick on a developmental quarterback that will have a cheap contract for four years.
     
  15. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    maybe you're right...but with these undersized lbs and not stout at the poa players there who need to be clean to the ball i think a space clogger like solia has more value...especially when imo those guys are harder to find and take longer to develop...and you won't be getting the opportunity to rush the passer with your front 7 if you don't stop the run...

    so to me solia has more value especially when you consider that the idea down the road is jordan supplements your pass rush significantly off the edge...anyways that's just how i see it...i think i can absorb/replace starks pass rush easier than i can solias stoutness vs the run and ability to take on multiple blockers...and odricks not a slouch interior pass rusher either at dt....

    when teams started double teaming starks after his fast start in 2012 to make him the focal point of the interior defense his production and play fell off...
     
  16. Austin Tatious

    Austin Tatious Starter

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    Pennington was a great leader...I liked the mentoring aspect in that regard. Wallace made a comment on the Finsiders that other guys said that Tannehill had improved as a leader this year. Wallace said something like he wouldn't know since he wasn't here last year, but Tanne was a good leader this year.

    I'd like to see Tanne really take the reigns, take charge and really have a kick *** attitude this year like it's his team. You need that amongst players too, not just coaches.
     
  17. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    the problem in trade will be that cap # though...$5.5 mil someones gonna want to be paying that to at least a stop gap starter...and i would be willing to bet that if anyones interested in trading for moore they will be doing so with the idea of giving him stiff competition for the starting job either in the draft or with another vet...so that cap number makes it difficult...

    although i would absolutely explore it...
     
  18. TealAttack13

    TealAttack13 A True Fan

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    He may want to be around for his kids but I will say this much: when Chad was a Jet, he owned a house about 10 minutes from me. Once in a while you would see him around town. He used to shop in a store my uncle worked at. This guy LOVES football. There is no doubt in my mind that he will be a coach some day. He might wait a few years until the kids get older, this much is probably true, but this guy will be a coach, and a damn good one IMO.
     
  19. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    this team doesn't need chad pennington either...tanny is just fine with his current qb coach...penningtons mindset is a litte different at qb given his physical limitations...tannehill doesn't have those limitations in fact he's terrific outside the numbers to the farthest parts of the field...

    not a fan of bringing in penny as a staff mentor/qb coach...everything tannehill needs to learn now is on the field and in the film study...and he's plenty capable and smart enough...

    pass...
     
  20. rent this space

    rent this space Starter Finheaven VIP

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    There was a rumor that Starks coasted the last half of 2012 to protect himself from injury in a contract year. Maybe it was the double teams but if true, combined with skipping the OTA's and his displeasure with "only" making $8 million this year would make me hesitate to sign him long term. I understand business is business but I wonder about his motivation. Everything considered, I would keep Soliai over Starks.
    Of all the pending free agents, I would only extend Soliai, Jones and maybe Misi.
     
  21. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    As we discussed a while ago, our 2014 cap is in god shape. I believe it is better than what Barry has written. We start out with around $20M. Patterson and/0r Marshall would add $5-10M more. It is possible that we could get rid of both by next year. Carp is around another $3M this year.

    I'm thinking that the cap will go up $5M next year, due to the TV revenue increase. I agree with Hoops on Moore and his $5M being gone, maybe during the season depending on injuries. Also, Wallace's $17M hit next year can easily be re-done if need be to cut another $5M.

    Potentially, the above can add $28M to our existing $20M, and easily done.

    DT is a big question. IF we want to use Jordan as a Joker, we need a NT. IF he is a DE, not as important. One would think that we will keep Starks or Soliai but, I could see signing someone new, depending on this year's play.

    UK adds o VG point on Grimes, who was not mentioned. If he comes back to form, I'm all in for keeping him, and we will be able to afford him.
     
  22. Hayden Fox

    Hayden Fox Love Creating Turnovers Donator

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    I was wondering the same thing too. Grimes was "missing" from the article. Is the plan for Davis and Taylor to take over in 14? I would think if Grimes has a big year, he is the most vital FA. That is why I would like to sign Jones longterm and have the franchise tag in the back pocket to use to bring back Grimes for another year.
     
  23. SR 7

    SR 7 A True Fan

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    best part of al that was how Binns said "show Ryan who the real binns is." NOt the coach, not the GM not anyone else but our FRANCHISE QB. Shows the respect and understanding of who RT17 is.

    That was like reading an article about the Colts with Manning or Brady with NE the past 10 years.

    Can this really be happening? Miami taking over once again? Jeez gotta hold my excitement back.
     
  24. Hayden Fox

    Hayden Fox Love Creating Turnovers Donator

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    $5.5 mil against the cap in 2014 for a backup qb like moore is too much...they either need to restructure that or let him walk provided tannehill shows the development i expect...way too much
    You can invest in a quality back up like Moore when, like you said below, the starter makes so little. He can play at that number if he is still of quality. If a #3 emerges somehow this summer, than maybe you can let Moore go, but going "light" at Qb is a silly and potentially season killing idea.

    penciling in dion jordan as a starting every down de in 2014 is awfully rich...i hope he weighs at least 260 by then at that height...i would still think olivier vernon will have the early down edge...2015 i can see it...
    Jordan better be ready to compete for a starter's job by next year. However, too many people are discounting OV as viable option on this team. OV made plays on special teams last year and many times that is a trend to continue on the defensive side of the ball with more experience.

    odrick moving back to permanent dt is a no brainer...i bet they let starks, keller, incog, and maybe clemons go after this season...if grimes stays healthy i think he's a guy retained on a year to year basis...30 plus year old corners who have had acchilles recently don't break the bank
    I agree here. I think Soliai should be the target of the two DT's. Odrick is similar to Starks in body type. Give me the big man to eat up blocks inside.

    miami has to seriously consider losing that dmitri patterson cap #...either approach him with a cut or let him go but i bet it depends on how the rookie cbs show in training camp...no use doing anything now...see how it plays out
    Agree. I will keep saying this: I do not think fans realize how much the FO likes Patterson. However, I agree that we should go thru training camp and see if he balls. If he does, his cap number is a treat. With that said, he has to be willing to take a cut this summer. He will never find that money on the open market.

    carpenters got one foot out the door already...if it's close to even it's over...they'll move on and roll with the cap savings with sturgis...
    Sturgis will be the kicker unless he pukes in his mouth all summer.

    tannehill dirt cheap on this rookie contract...dirt cheap...2 years from now he'll be getting a $80 plus million dollar one from us so plan ahead cap wise
    Let's hope RT is getting a big money deal. If he does, it means he is playing well. If he is not getting a big deal, it means the team failed again QB.


     
  25. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Completely agree. IF Grimes is what he was, money and talent wise, would you trade off Patterson and Marshall (around $10M) for him? Should take a heartbeat to answer. :)
     
  26. Hayden Fox

    Hayden Fox Love Creating Turnovers Donator

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    A young QB like Tannehill can pick up a ton from one the smartest QB's of his era. It is not like RT will get ****ed up by this. What we have to love is RT's willingness to learn. Great to see.
     
  27. CANDolphan

    CANDolphan Seasoned Veteran

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    Matt Moore's contract structure makes me think they are going to get 1 season out of him, and then try to trade him to a team desperate for a stop gap QB.
     
  28. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    restructuring mike wallace contract in year 2 given the guaranteed money already in the deal and the terms of the deal ie $17 mil against the cap in 2014 means adding even more future liability...when you restructure you lesson your short term cap impact but you add on to your long term one...no matter what miami does they are not getting away from that $30 mil guaranteed at some point you pay the piper...in our case it begins in 2014 it is not a smart play to restructure that contract in year 2 there's enough liability in that contract already...

    as for the not smart to let matt moore thing go ie a solid backup given the cap # take a look around the rest of the league...if aarond rodgers goes down they got a guy making rookie money pretty much behind him you'll find most the high end qbs around the league have dirt cheap backup options...the ones that don't primarily have nothing special as their incumbent starter...and for the most part if your starting qb goes down in this league barring a unknown quantity taking his place you are done anyways for that season...miami is no exception and matt moore's not an unknown quantity...
     
  29. sinPHIN

    sinPHIN A True Fan

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    great stuff as usual
     
  30. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Wallace got an $11M signing bonus which counts $2,2M for each of his 5 year contract. His salaries are $1M this year guaranteed, $15M in 2014 guaranteed, $9.85M in 2015 with $3M guaranteed, and $11.45 in 2016 and 2017. We could, for example, move $5M guaranteed from next year to 2015, and spread out his $5M lost salary with a little incentive if need be.

    We would save $4M on Moore next year. The other $1.5 in on his signing bonus. In addition to a trade possible trade, we could also re-structure and add a year for a cheaper deal in 2014.

    The new TV revenue is a HUGE deal. The cap is going to go up, just a matter of if it's going to be gradual or a big jump. We won't know until next year, and it will make a difference.

    I'm just pointing out options available, along with Marshall and Patterson. We may not want to or, need to make any of these moves but, they are there for us.
     
  31. NY8123

    NY8123 Sophisticated Redneck Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    As I watched the events of the off season moves unfold and subsequently checked the contracts and cap numbers as they became public it didn't take me long to realize what a masterful off season Jeff and the front office had. I mean even with Wallace if he doesn't work out the contract can be washed away after 2014 for almost no cap hit.

    The off-season moves were something of the sorts of watching Bobby Fisher play a chess match, unless you are on his level the mate in three doesn't become clear until he executes the three move mate.
     
  32. datruth55

    datruth55 Starter

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    I agree. Back when Bates was the DC and he had a top 5 defense we got pressure with the front 4 and no blitzing. Gardner was one of the tackles and he provided pressure and played the run well but the guy that held the line together and got no credit for it because he didn't put up the stats was Tim Bowens. Bowens kept Zach Thomas from getting blocked on plays and allowed him to run free and make plays. I think Soliai is the guy we need to keep.
     
  33. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    i don't see how this is accurate...if after year 2 you have only eaten into 2/5ths of the signing bonus that still leaves you with 3/5ths of $11 mil on the books and you still have $3 mil guaranteed in 2015 also on the books it would seem to me that you would be eating around $9 mil to get out after 2014 of dead money...provided the numbers south beach has provided are accurate later in this thread...

    no one wants to eat near $10 mil to get out in one year...most likely if you get out it's after year 3...provided you don't restructure this thing and keep putting guaranteed money further and further down the line on the books...which is why i'm adamantly against any restructure in year 2 in the first place...
     
  34. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    I think what NY is saying is that while we would take the $9.6 cap hit, we would also save the $6.85M left on his salary. So, the net hit would be $2.75M
     
  35. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    i may be wrong on this but i don't think that's how it works...that $9.6 mil is on your books if you get out after year 2 regardless of the salary you don't pay going forward to my understanding...

    i don't think you can offset guaranteed money...my understanding again maybe i'm off but it's what i've always thought is come hell or high water $30 mil is on your books...til you've exhausted the signing bonus and guaranteed moneys in the contract you eat whatevers left whenever you get out
     
  36. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    True, the team must pay that but, the saved salary does come off the cap. So, as to the cap, your net cost is $2.75M in this case, and the same would be true of his future salaries for 2016 and 17 of Almost $23M.
     
  37. El Calebra

    El Calebra Fan Finheaven VIP Donator

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    Don't need to know his name. We know who Pennington is and that is plenty good for me.
     
  38. NY8123

    NY8123 Sophisticated Redneck Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    You are both correct in a sort. If Miami cut Wallace after the 2014 season because it didn't work out or whatever the cap hit in 2015 would be 6.6m. Yeah it is still a lot of money but considering the size of the contract it isn't.

    Let's just hope Wallace is catching balls like a top 5 receiver and we never have to worry about it.
     
  39. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    You lost me NY. If Wallace is gone in two years, we still have to pay $9.6M, and we do not have to pay his salary of $6.85M. Cap accounting shows that at a negative $2.75M for the team in 2015. That's it.

    The NFL is like no other business or sport. It's like having two contracts in one. On one hand, you have to pay guaranteed money. On the other, you do not have to pay salaries, which are not guaranteed. One offsets the other in most cases after 2-3 years.

    If Wallace will be kept for 3 years, we still pay $4.4 because of his signing bonus but, do not have to pay him his $11.45M salary, and get a cap credit for the balance. Both must be taken into the cap equation.
     
  40. rent this space

    rent this space Starter Finheaven VIP

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    If he is cut after 2014, they still owe him $6.6 million in signing bonus money, the base salary is guaranteed in 2013 and 2014 only. At that point I don't know if the bonus is still spread over the next 3 years or paid all in that year. If it's still spread out, $2.2 million in dead money isn't that much on a $125 million salary cap. If it is due in one lump, $6.6 isn't good, but not horrible either
     
  41. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    what about the $3 mil guaranteed in 2015...that has to be added in as well...

    i'm confused about this base salary stuff can be subtracted from the guaranteed money cap hit if you let a guy go before all the guaranteed money in the deal has been paid out...if someone can provide concrete evidence of this i would appreciate it...anyone???
     
  42. Ruckus45

    Ruckus45 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    Isnt it nice how we can talk about how the FO might keep players and add even more cap space next year instead of who we might have to cut or trade just to keep enough money for rookies?
     
  43. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Here's the deal. ALL guaranteed money has to be paid by team to player, no matter what it is. A singing bonus is paid in full upon the signing of the contract. Player has this money in his bank. However, for cap purposes, the team pro-rats this bonus over the term of the contract. $10M over 5 years is $2M per year. If the player is cut or traded, the NFL accelerates the signing bonus, which means it is charged to that year's cap.

    The player's salaries, not guaranteed, are subtracted from the team's cap, as they are not gonna pay it, and do not have to.

    As a result, the guaranteed money goes to the player, and is added to the salary cap. However, the salaries do not have to be paid, and are deducted from the team's salary cap.

    The guaranteed money is still paid, with the salaries having no effect on that. However, the salaries not guaranteed (something separate) are taken off the cap.

    * The $3M guaranteed salary HAS to be paid, and the total would be $9.6M, not 6.6M.
     
  44. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    i get what you are saying but i am struggling with the part not about you don't have to pay the salaries but the part about you can deduct them from the cap hit...if that's the case there wouldn't be many teams in cap hell every year...if it's as simple as i protect myself by giving the player a large salary in the middle years of the contract to offset the large bonus and guaranteed money cap hits...

    that seems too simple to work around...
     
  45. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    The salaries are NOT deducted from the guaranteed money, which belongs to the player. They are only deducted from the team's cap because the team does not have to pay them.

    For example, a player is due to be paid $10M for this year. $5M is guaranteed, and in the players pocket no matter what happens. The other $5M is not guaranteed. So, you cut that player, and he gets his guaranteed $5M but, the team saves the other $5M off the cap by not having to pay him.

    They are NOT directly connected but, do cancel each other out in the bigger salary cap deal.
     
  46. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    ok...just seems like a get out of jail free card to me...seems too easy...i guess i got some homework to do
     
  47. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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  48. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Let's go poster on this. I have $100 to pay you for 2 VG posts, and the first $50 is guaranteed for your first post. I pay you the $50 in advance, and don't want the second post. You have $50 in your pocket, and I keep the second $50. I lost $50, and kept $50.
     
  49. hoops

    hoops exited stage left

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    where does it say anywhere in there that you can subtract salaries from cap hits on cut players with guaranteed moneys still on the table??? i don't see it...
     
  50. So Be

    So Be A True Fan

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    Two entirely separate deals. Guaranteed money to players, not guaranteed to team.
     

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