Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by FinAtic8480, Jun 25, 2010.
I am loving the new attitude Marshall brought to MIA. even after the whole #15 thing. Bess will get the recognition he deserves with Defenses focusing on our ground game and B.Marsh
bess will have a big year... but i think the all the wr and henne are going to shine
I think Bess is the best slot WR in the game and im loving that now he is starting to get recogniction.
Like Bess, but - at this point - you can't say he's better than Welker.
Don't think they are comparable really. Like Marshall said, they play the same position, but have two totally different games. Welker is like putting a chicken in a room and telling people to chase it, and Bess is more of a straight ahead guy. He's going to make one juke/cut or break an arm tackle and then take off.
Hartline should be the #2 with Bess in the slot.
I like Bess as a player but who the hell is he juking and taking off. 3 tds in 130 receptions is not a breakaway guy. Bess is pretty similar to Welker but I definately think Welker is the better player. He is pretty underrated , no other player that would catch 110 passes a year three years in a row would be treated like he is just a product of the system. My question to that is how come nobody else has produced like that. Hell he led us in receiving without even being a starter.
With him being in the slot along with Hartline and Marshall on the outside, Bess is bound for a great year.
So if Bess is going to make pro bowl I guess Marshall is not expecting to make pro bowl. I very much doubt Davon Bess has more receptions than Marshal.
Welker is shiftier and more elusive than Bess. Welker's acceleration is amazing Bess is good but he doesn't have Welker type quickness and acceleration.
I think he will, not as many yards but more receptions
I dont see it Marshall has caught a 100 passes a year for the last three years as the number one. Marshall's numbers should diminish slightly but he has shown that he can do this, I doubt Bess approaches a 100 receptions with Marshall on team and Henning as coordinator
People forget that Bess is only just now entering his 3rd year as a pro.
Here are some reality checks.
1. At this point in his career Wes Welker had 29 catches for 431 yards and 0 TDs to his name. Davone Bess has 130 catches for 1312 yards and 3 TDs. And don't give me any sob stories about Welker's humble beginnings, because let's face it Bess' beginnings were just as humble. They both were UDFAs after being really productive college players.
2. They have basically the same athleticism, except Davone's is probably a little bit better. Go check their Combine/Pro Day numbers if you like. Welker ran a 4.65 at his Pro Day, had a 30" vertical, 9'5" broad jump, 4.01 shuttle and 7.09 cone. Davone Bess ran a 4.64/2.61/1.53 at the Combine, and a 4.60/2.66/1.59 at his Pro Day. He jumped 31.5" and 32.5". He jumps 9'7" and 9'10". His shuttles were 4.27 and 4.28. His cones were 6.97 and 7.15. Bess was 5'10" and 194 lbs. Welker was 5'9" and 195 lbs.
You have to think back, it's easy to compare Welker NOW with what he's accomplished, to Bess now when he's only a 2nd year player. But to be fair you have to think back to what Welker had shown us after his 2nd year in the pros. I think that if you knew nothing about Wes Welker's future and you were to rip him out of the past and put him next to Davone Bess right now, everyone here would hands down rate Bess the better football player.
The one difference I've seen between the two so far is that in his 2nd year Welker didn't have a period where he kept dropping the ball and/or fumbling it. I wasn't sure if that was something in Bess that indicates he'll keep dropping passes, or if it was just some kind of weird sophomore thing that happens to even the best. But Welker didn't really have the opportunity to have that kind of phase because he only caught 29 passes his 2nd year.
I could see a similar thing happening in 2010 with the Dolphins as happened in 2007 with the Patriots. Not necessarily the record-breaking passing offense but in terms of Bess being a go-to player for catches, Marshall being a go-to player for catches, but also Hartline being a guy that like Donte Stallworth, plays an important and productive role.
I just thought this was a really interesting revelation. Marshall had talked about Bess a lot, how much he was impressed with him. He's talked unbidden about how when he got here he told Bess that he really appreciated his game because he likes how he's able to catch that short ball, make a guy miss and gain 10 yards or so, he's real physical after the catch and Brandon likes that. Some time later he talked about how hard Bess works and how hard he studies and how nobody outworks him. I initially mistook this as praise he was heaping on Bess because of the potential awkwardness of the number situation, and I thought the only reason he was even talking about Davone was because he keeps fielding questions about him due to the number thing. But now, you don't tell someone that you think they're going to the Pro Bowl this year just to be polite. He talked in this interview with Evan Cohen about his experience with Eddie Royal and how close they were and how it was their goal to get each of them 100 catches, that whenever he was on the sidelines he kept lobbying for them to throw the ball at Eddie so they could accomplish that goal. Eddie ended up with 91 catches so they didn't quite make it, but it was a revealing story in connection with his admission that he told Davone that he expects him in the Pro Bowl...because people tend to see the present through the lens of the past and to me it means he's already framing his relationship with Davone Bess like he thought of his relationship with Eddie Royal, and probably Mike Sims-Walker.
Well I don't mean taking off as in running 60 yards and scoring, I mean that by he does his move and then runs forward. A bit hard to explain, but Welker is the more elusive/run around you guy and Bess is the more straight ahead guy.
I personally want Bess to be a million times better than Welker, for the simple fact of how Wes threw us under the bus when he was traded. Also, CK wasn't Bess like second in the league converting 3rd downs to first. Is he not already Henne's go to guy. Not knocking you or anything, just asking?
got ya on that, miami;s biggest weakness has been recievers making yards on their own.
Bess and Camarillo have always been excellent components in the passing game, our problem hasn't been that we had no good receivers, more that we had no one who could even approach being great. With Marshall around to be the everything guy, we're going to see Bess and Camarillo shine in the roles that they were meant to play in the NFL as possession receivers, where they can certainly be some of the most reliable in the game.
"1. At this point in his career Wes Welker had 29 catches for 431 yards and 0 TDs to his name. Davone Bess has 130 catches for 1312 yards and 3 TDs. And don't give me any sob stories about Welker's humble beginnings, because let's face it Bess' beginnings were just as humble. They both were UDFAs after being really productive college players.
You have to think back, it's easy to compare Welker NOW with what he's accomplished, to Bess now when he's only a 2nd year player. But to be fair you have to think back to what Welker had shown us after his 2nd year in the pros. I think that if you knew nothing about Wes Welker's future and you were to rip him out of the past and put him next to Davone Bess right now, everyone here would hands down rate Bess the better football player."
One thing about what you say makes it quite hard to compare early stats for Welker because he had two legitmate NFL starting caliber players starting over him while Bess in Miami maybe had one in Camirillo while Ginn was not a starter with Chambers here.
Im pretty sure with the group of receivers here the past two years that Welker would have had more receptions.
That is crazy. Two starting receivers playing in front of him or not -- was he not cut from San Diego? You can't say he looked better, you would have to make a great case just to say he had anywhere near the potential at this stage in his career as Bess.
As for Bess, the third year is huge for receivers. Bess has already shown more polish as a rookie than some in their third. He could seriously break out this year, especially with attention that Marshall will command. If its from the #2 or the slot, he is going to get his catches. This may be the year that he starts turning more into TDs.
He was caught in a numbers game in San Diego. He lost out on the return role to Darren Sproles. This was his best way to make team. San diego had two very experienced receivers in McCardell and Parker. They also had Vincent Jackson and Malcom Floyd.
Kassim Osgood was one of the best special teams players in the league. Add that to Reche Caldwell thier 2nd round pick from a few years earlier looking like he was ready to step up. Once he lost out in the return duel his fate was sealed.
What is a bit ironic going into this year compared to last year is that Bess was the only reliable starting reciever on the roster last year at the beginning of the season. Ginn was a hopeful, Hartline was a unproven and Greg C was still not healthy. The phins were forced to use Bess more wide than in the slot where he is more dangerous. Overall we were pretty one diminisional at the start of last year relying on the running game for our offense which really took a pounding after batteling Indy and New Orleans to a standstill. Throw also in the fact that later we lost Cobbs early, then Brown mid stream and played max protection starting in week 5 to help protect Henne starting at QB our offense was really a mess. This year barring injuries in the preseason we should open up relying on our passing game much more than the runnning game. In reality this year looks like a inversion of last year with Brown and Cobbs as unknown factors coming back from their injuries and Ricky's age. Still we should be much more well rounded as a overall team on offense really only missing part being a stud TE. On defence it is kind of the same way we appeared really solid goinig in at OLB and FS and this year both positions are an unknown. Rereading a prediction from CK regarding Will Allen play FS certainly is looking more plausible to at least fill the FS gap early in the year. Msi should be able to fill in at least comparablity or better for Porter which leaves us Jason Taylors shoes to fill. Pretty much we have the same cast back from last year at the OLB position which mainly played as backups and outside of Wakes pass rush did not show much. I just wonder if we might not see Dobbins, Crowder, Msi and Dansby all on the field at the same time at the start of the season for one of our basic packages. Later mixing in Edds and Wake to take advantage of their talents plus let them grow into their positions. I just do not see Moses, Anderson, Walden, McCoy or Spitler getting on the field based either on last year prodcution in the NFL or production in college.
I think the most incredible thing is how much Henne was able to do with the supporting cast last year and keep his team in games and have comeback wins. For Henne to show he can win games without a superstar which most young QBs need is amazing.
Thats one thing I have been saying I definately expect dobbins path to starter may be through Dansby moving outside because of the OLB's
Dansby won't play OLB in the 3-4. Bank on that.
I wouldnt bank on that with the inexperience we have along with mediocre Charlie Anderson possibbly starting but we shall see. I remember people poo pooing on Roth playing OLB and guess what happened. I actually was one of them lol. I dont expect our OLB to be that good that quick this year and I know Nolan will do whats best for the team if need be. If our OLB's struggle as I think they might it would be much better to play Dansby there.
I wasn't. I thought Roth could play OLB in the 3-4. I've taken a pretty hard 16 game look at Karlos Dansby and I'm saying it, he won't be playing 3-4 OLB on any kind of full time basis. He might swing out to the outside in a rush position, that'll be a pre-snap thing, he might line up wide of the actual 3-4 OLB, that'll just be a matter of covering the Y receiver, but he's not going to be Miami's WOLB or SOLB. You don't have to believe me if you don't want to. But I'm not going to be wrong, not on this one. I'd be flat shocked if Miami actually switched his position that way. He'd be worse there than some of the guys we have on roster.
Its not a matter of believing anybody. Noone can say what will actually happen until the bullets fly. I just dont see Nolan not doing that if our inexperienced linebackers struggle. I predict they will have some hiccups this year. Moses, Misi and Wake all have alot to prove as OLB's. Charlie Anderson has already proven himself, unfortunately he is proven not very good. Not to mention if one of our starting linebackers gets hurt I would much rather have Dobbins start than Anderson. I also doubt that Dansby would be a worse OLB in the three 4 than many of the guys on our roster. Not sure why you feel he cant play outside. He is basically same size as Misi and Wake is as fast if not faster than them.
bess is no wes welker
I agree esp as a kicker
How about lets give bess a chance to work in the slot with a no.1 WR. Then we will see for ourselves.
U are right but I see his numbers dropping with Marshall here.
at this precise point... He is, Welker tore his ACL and MCL in week 17, (January) so taking into account that it takes from 12 to 18 months to fully recover from that injury.. I would say that he won't even play this year and if he does, he won't be close to 100 %..
Welker, 29, Will be fully recovered when he is 30 years old...
Bess has body control that is rare, even rare to find in the NFL. Its utterly amazing.
Bess also has one of the best forms I have seen in some time catching the ball, its picture perfect everytime and he makes it seems like slow motion while looking the ball in each time.
I see Bess getting 60-80 catches this year.
IMHO, Welker doesn't get the respect that he deserves around the league, because he is a short skinny white guy. It's that simple. White receivers are almost always characterized as overachievers, never as talented studs.
Welker is a football player who is BETTER than all but a few in the league, and the numbers prove it. Football GM's aren't geniuses. Most really whiffed on this guy.
I agree. Bess is better.
even though i think bess will have a good year, look out for hartline
Right now Welker doesnt have Welker acceleration. Whos knows how his knee is going to react.
that fumble against the Saints still pisses me off.
Quick question. When chosing the pro-bowl...do they even have a category for "slot?" Or, is it just "WR." If it is just WR, it will take a lot more to get chosen. Also, no matter whether anyone thinks Welker or Bess is better, Bess has to deal with "name recognition." Most people out there voting (fans anyway) do it for a great extent just based on who they have heard of. In this case, Welker will aleady have a ballot lead before the season even begins....that's just the way it is.
While I agree with you on the credit issue I disagree with you at least a bit as far as the pure physical talent is concerned. Now when I mention pure physical talent I am leaving out the areas of phyiscal toughness, mental smarts,mental toughness and the abilility to stay healthy.
Let's compare Ginn and Wess for a minute. Not even close Ginn wins hands down on God given physcial talent. Physcial toughness Wess wins as Ginn avoids contact. Mental smarts I am going to say even. Mental toughness is where Wes really wins hands down. Ability to stay healthy draw even with Wes injured now as he is older than Ginn. So most of us measure the pure physical talent of a player but it is the mental side of the game in the mental toughness that you usually find a player like Wes who is more talented.
I think we see the same thing between Turner and Hartline.
Right now its not even a debate who is better. The only people that would even try that debate are dolphin fans. Over a 110 receptions three years in a row is something thats has never been done before.. The big problem for players like Welker is that since they are not combine type studs people overlook what they accomplish. In a season where he missed games and basically only played 13 games he had the second most receptions ever in the NFL and still people act like he is just a product of the system.
brett favre has just announced tavaris jackson will make the pro bowl. equally important & even more interesting brett favre had bacon & eggs for breakfast.
You're preaching to choir. I am one who still thinks that losing Welker was huge loss for this team...and I don't buy all the "product of the system" crap. From my perspective, anyone could see that Welker was great...it was just the team around him that sucked.
love our passion bro'...but that kid Welker is pretty darn good.
totally agree. Bess will have a big year because you would be a total fool not to use his incredible particular skills, irrespective of who the other WRs are. Marshall will give Bess more space and Bess will take it.
I just can't see the hype around Hartline. He's honest, he's tough, he's worth having in the receiving corps. But he's not all that.
Very true, he's made some SICK catches. I think if someone were to put together a vid of his best catches, it would compare with the best right now. Not even exaggerating. Made one on his back, a one hander while twisting his body, one where he jumped in the air, stretched his arms out completely, basically jumping over the corner.. he's insane.
Which applies to my point they say the kid is tough and smart what they are implying is that Turner is more athletically gifted than Hartline just either does have the traits Harline has yet to get on the field. Tony S kept talking about how smart Hartline was last year all the time. The same has been said about Greg C..
When I see threads like this I have to roll my eye backwards. I think this is a little bit too much to call bess a pro bowl wide receiver. This is more of a mental factor than anything.