Building success starts with a franchise QB

[KB21]

All im saying is you can get any position in FA except QB good QBs almost never leave in FA. But Ol, DL, S, RB they leave in FA all the time just look at last year off the top of my head

OL- John Tait, Damien Woody

DL- Warren Sapp, Jevon Kearse

S- John Lynch

RB- Duce Staley

name the last team to get a valuable FA QB?

You are wrong.

You will rarely see good offensive tackles, defensive ends, and cornerbacks (along with quarterbacks) hit the market. Those are the toughest positions to get truly great players at, and when teams get them, they don't let them go. The guys you mentioned at these positions are all overrated. Especially John Tait and Damien Woody.

 

[jzolnowski]

Im going to have disagree, while im not saying its easy to get these guys year in and year out it is easier than getting a QB

CB- Antoine Winfield and Troy Vincent just last year. A couple of recent greats over say the last couple Deon Sanders, Rod Woodson(before he went safety), Anease Williams
not to shabby and there is plenty more

DE- Kearse and Wistrom last year. The same scenario, Reggie White, Charles Haley, and Bruce Smith.....not bad again

Now I will agree that offensive tackles are tough BUT there are only about 4 or 5 that stand out the rest are closely interchangeable such as Tait and others so really there are plenty available, the Wayne Gandy/John Taits of the league are a dime a dozen

Give it a shot give me a couple QBs

 

[dolphingator]

Feeley hopefully is going to be one of those guys for us (we'll see), but we need to get a solid #2 to back him up.

Feeley IS the solid #2. He has "Career Backup" written all over him. Keep him, but draft the Future Franchise Starter with the high pick.

 

[NaboCane]

The bottom line is this:


A franchise Quarterback is a great thing to have; he gives a coach options; he's fun and exciting to watch, so he's great for the fans; he can win games for you on his arm.

But a franchise Quarterback is NOT necessary in order to win Superbowls, nor to have a great team. You'd have to ignore history to think otherwise.

He gives a coach options: yes; but there are a million variations of a thousand game plans, and the overwhelming majority of them don't require a franchise QB in order to win games.

We were blessed here once; I truly feel that - we were blessed to an extraordinary degree from 1983 to 1999. We were so very, very lucky to have arguably the best ever play here - and thrill us, and break records, and give us so many beautiful Sundays (and Mondays!) - so many reasons to cheer; and we miss that. I know I do.

And now, in the depths of a season so hard and miserable that it is unlike any other we've had in our team's history, we want a reason to cheer; we want the team to go out and get us a guy that will make us feel the way Marino made us feel for so long that we came to take it for granted.

But what we have to - have to remember is that special things rarely arrive by design; they come mostly by providence. If we don't remember that, this is going to make us crazy. I know it'll make me crazy.

Marino didn't come to Miami by design; he came here by a confluence of events that is unprecedented for the amount of success that followed. We didn't trade up to the first spot to take him; we did nothing, in fact, except wait out 26 other teams that passed on him for different reasons, while taking ahead of him such luminaries as Todd Blackledge, Tony Eason, and Ken O'Brien.

Look at some of the guys that we consider the best playing right now; most weren't drafted, or were drafted late, or were traded, or were released at some point in their careers.

What's my point? I want a franchise Quarterback as much as you do. I want to have more memories of great wins, and fourth-quarter comebacks, etc. But we can't chase it. If we do, we are many more times more likely to suffer the disappointment that so many teams have suffered when they reached for a need player when it wasn't the best choice. And the fact is: NONE of the guys coming out this year don't have SERIOUS questions attached. If we use our top pick - quite possibly the only first-overall pick the Phins have ever had - and it doesn't pan out, we've screwed ourselves for years to come, just like we've screwed ourselves with bad drafting for years before now.

The team's blueprint has to be based on sound fundamental building blocks that will carry the team for 8-12 years from now, and we should support that. It's not sexy, but it'll win.

 

[inFINSible]

First of all INFINSIBLE Bledsoe, Collins, and Mcnair all played in a SB so thats 3

5 of the 1st rounders are in their 1st year as a starter so they couldnt have been in one yet.

Vick is only in his second year as a starter due to injuries(no rookie goes SB)

Manning, Culpepper, Pennington and Mcnabb dont need for a arguement placed for them BUT two of them could be there this year as they are all almost garunteed to be in the playoffs this year

Carr took over a expansion Franchise(only 3 seasons ago) who lost thier top expansion draft player

So basically Testaverde and Harrington are the only questionable as of now right

Meanwhile out of the other 16

6 Brunell/10seasons, Hasselbeck/4seasons, Brooks/5seasons, Green/6seasons, Griese/4seasons, Plummer/8seasons have been starters for a combined 37 seasons and not only are there no SB there are only maybe 8 or so playoff appearances not only is that bad its funny

3 Feeley,Mccown, Rattay are first year starters

4 Farve, Brady, Delhomme, and Warner have been there but as I stated Farve may not be a first but he was a very high second(we can't take a QB in the 2nd)

3 Brees, Garcia, Bulger not only have they not been to a SB but they have all either been cut or benched

So clearly the first rounders have an advatage give them some time there will be more SB appearances there, the problem is they are all young with the years that the late rounders have they should destroy them not have a close call such as 3 1st rounders in a SB to 4 late rounders(and really its 3 because Farve was an early second as stated before)

Bledose, Collins and McNair have all been to 1 SB and they all lost.

Favre,Brady, and Warner, all won, and Delhomme was beaten by Brady.

That means that only Collins was beaten by a fellow first rounder....the infamous Trent Dilfer, which doesn't help your argument at all.


Since none of the other first rounders have gone to a SB, your guess that they will, is just that, a guess and not reality so, there is no point in debating that any further.

If success was as easy as merely taking a QB in the first round, then ALL teams would be successful.

 

[inFINSible]

The bottom line is this:


A franchise Quarterback is a great thing to have; he gives a coach options; he's fun and exciting to watch, so he's great for the fans; he can win games for you on his arm.

But a franchise Quarterback is NOT necessary in order to win Superbowls, nor to have a great team. You'd have to ignore history to think otherwise.

He gives a coach options: yes; but there are a million variations of a thousand game plans, and the overwhelming majority of them don't require a franchise QB in order to win games.

We were blessed here once; I truly feel that - we were blessed to an extraordinary degree from 1983 to 1999. We were so very, very lucky to have arguably the best ever play here - and thrill us, and break records, and give us so many beautiful Sundays (and Mondays!) - so many reasons to cheer; and we miss that. I know I do.

And now, in the depths of a season so hard and miserable that it is unlike any other we've had in our team's history, we want a reason to cheer; we want the team to go out and get us a guy that will make us feel the way Marino made us feel for so long that we came to take it for granted.

But what we have to - have to remember is that special things rarely arrive by design; they come mostly by providence. If we don't remember that, this is going to make us crazy. I know it'll make me crazy.

Marino didn't come to Miami by design; he came here by a confluence of events that is unprecedented for the amount of success that followed. We didn't trade up to the first spot to take him; we did nothing, in fact, except wait out 26 other teams that passed on him for different reasons, while taking ahead of him such luminaries as Todd Blackledge, Tony Eason, and Ken O'Brien.

Look at some of the guys that we consider the best playing right now; most weren't drafted, or were drafted late, or were traded, or were released at some point in their careers.

What's my point? I want a franchise Quarterback as much as you do. I want to have more memories of great wins, and fourth-quarter comebacks, etc. But we can't chase it. If we do, we are many more times more likely to suffer the disappointment that so many teams have suffered when they reached for a need player when it wasn't the best choice. And the fact is: NONE of the guys coming out this year don't have SERIOUS questions attached. If we use our top pick - quite possibly the only first-overall pick the Phins have ever had - and it doesn't pan out, we've screwed ourselves for years to come, just like we've screwed ourselves with bad drafting for years before now.

The team's blueprint has to be based on sound fundamental building blocks that will carry the team for 8-12 years from now, and we should support that. It's not sexy, but it'll win.

Excellent post. Beautifully said.

 

[djfresh47]

1st Rd QB's might have not won in the past but if you look around the NFL the best teams have "franchise qb's" who were taken in the 1st rd with exception of New England and Brady is a very rare example. Minnesota, Green Bay, Atlanta, and Philly have franchise QB's and only Favre wasn't taken in the 1st rd but he was taken high in the 2nd. In the Afc Brady, Big Ben, and Manning are the QB's of the 3 best AFC teams IMO and 2/3 are 1st rd QB's and Brady is a rare example. If Feeley turns out to be average that's great but having a QB who can win games and not just "manage" games is not gonna work in the NFL anymore. If you don't have a franchise QB you can't pass one up early in the draft. It's still possible that Feeley turns out but he's on auditioning for a job next season because if he continues to play as he has I don't think he's gonna be anything more than average, if he plays better and shows progress which I don't think he did vs SF then they should atleast bring in a capable backup because if Feeley doesn't play well at the start of next season can the team really compete with his mistakes, so they'd have someone to take over. I don't think they should draft an OT in the 1st rd of the draft I think a DT or Qb is the pick.

 

[NaboCane]

1st Rd QB's might have not won in the past but if you look around the NFL the best teams have "franchise qb's" who were taken in the 1st rd with exception of New England and Brady is a very rare example. Minnesota, Green Bay, Atlanta, and Philly have franchise QB's and only Favre wasn't taken in the 1st rd but he was taken high in the 2nd. In the Afc Brady, Big Ben, and Manning are the QB's of the 3 best AFC teams IMO and 2/3 are 1st rd QB's and Brady is a rare example. If Feeley turns out to be average that's great but having a QB who can win games and not just "manage" games is not gonna work in the NFL anymore. If you don't have a franchise QB you can't pass one up early in the draft. It's still possible that Feeley turns out but he's on auditioning for a job next season because if he continues to play as he has I don't think he's gonna be anything more than average, if he plays better and shows progress which I don't think he did vs SF then they should atleast bring in a capable backup because if Feeley doesn't play well at the start of next season can the team really compete with his mistakes, so they'd have someone to take over. I don't think they should draft an OT in the 1st rd of the draft I think a DT or Qb is the pick.

Deconstruct it down the the sub-microscopic level until you totally lose sight of reality if you want, but it doesn't change facts - most teams win Superbowls without a "franchise" QB that they gave up a first-round pick for.

That's not opinion, that's fact.

 

[KB21]

The bottom line is this:


A franchise Quarterback is a great thing to have; he gives a coach options; he's fun and exciting to watch, so he's great for the fans; he can win games for you on his arm.

But a franchise Quarterback is NOT necessary in order to win Superbowls, nor to have a great team. You'd have to ignore history to think otherwise.

He gives a coach options: yes; but there are a million variations of a thousand game plans, and the overwhelming majority of them don't require a franchise QB in order to win games.

We were blessed here once; I truly feel that - we were blessed to an extraordinary degree from 1983 to 1999. We were so very, very lucky to have arguably the best ever play here - and thrill us, and break records, and give us so many beautiful Sundays (and Mondays!) - so many reasons to cheer; and we miss that. I know I do.

And now, in the depths of a season so hard and miserable that it is unlike any other we've had in our team's history, we want a reason to cheer; we want the team to go out and get us a guy that will make us feel the way Marino made us feel for so long that we came to take it for granted.

But what we have to - have to remember is that special things rarely arrive by design; they come mostly by providence. If we don't remember that, this is going to make us crazy. I know it'll make me crazy.

Marino didn't come to Miami by design; he came here by a confluence of events that is unprecedented for the amount of success that followed. We didn't trade up to the first spot to take him; we did nothing, in fact, except wait out 26 other teams that passed on him for different reasons, while taking ahead of him such luminaries as Todd Blackledge, Tony Eason, and Ken O'Brien.

Look at some of the guys that we consider the best playing right now; most weren't drafted, or were drafted late, or were traded, or were released at some point in their careers.

What's my point? I want a franchise Quarterback as much as you do. I want to have more memories of great wins, and fourth-quarter comebacks, etc. But we can't chase it. If we do, we are many more times more likely to suffer the disappointment that so many teams have suffered when they reached for a need player when it wasn't the best choice. And the fact is: NONE of the guys coming out this year don't have SERIOUS questions attached. If we use our top pick - quite possibly the only first-overall pick the Phins have ever had - and it doesn't pan out, we've screwed ourselves for years to come, just like we've screwed ourselves with bad drafting for years before now.

The team's blueprint has to be based on sound fundamental building blocks that will carry the team for 8-12 years from now, and we should support that. It's not sexy, but it'll win.

I disagree.

No one is ignoring history. History is littered with exceptions to every rule, and if you look at the history of the NFL, winning a championship with an average quarterback is a definite exception to the rule.

Look at the 1990s. Outside of Mark Rypien and Jeff Hostetler, every Superbowl was won by a franchise quarterback. From Joe Montana to Steve Young to Troy Aikman to Brett Favre to John Elway, the Superbowls of the 1990s were dominated by franchise quarterbacks.

 

[NaboCane]

I disagree.

No one is ignoring history. History is littered with exceptions to every rule, and if you look at the history of the NFL, winning a championship with an average quarterback is a definite exception to the rule.

Look at the 1990s. Outside of Mark Rypien and Jeff Hostetler, every Superbowl was won by a franchise quarterback. From Joe Montana to Steve Young to Troy Aikman to Brett Favre to John Elway, the Superbowls of the 1990s were dominated by franchise quarterbacks.

You make a leap from "average QB" to "franchise QB" to make your point, but that doesn't change reality - most Superbowls are won by non-"franchise" QB's - especially in today's NFL.

And if you're making a choice that will determine the direction of the franchise for years to come - a choice that has the potential to cripple the franchise if it goes wrong - why would you play the low percentages of the exception to the rule, rather than the high percentages of the rule itself? After all, the rule became the rule by applying most of the time, didn't it?

 

[djfresh47]

Deconstruct it down the the sub-microscopic level until you totally lose sight of reality if you want, but it doesn't change facts - most teams win Superbowls without a "franchise" QB that they gave up a first-round pick for.

That's not opinion, that's fact.

I don't think they have to go out and spend a 1st rd pick on a franchise QB, but that they will need a franchise Qb to compete in the upcoming seasons. From what's been seen of AJ so far he has not shown that he will be that, the reality is that right now AJ Feeley would might not even be the backup on any other Afc East's team roster. The point is Pittsburgh, Indy, New England, Philly, ATL, GB, Minnesota are the teams that I believe are the team's that have a shot at going deep into the playoffs and everyone of them has a franchise QB. Could the team make the playoffs with a stop-gap QB maybe, but I don't think so with all the good young QB's especially in the AFC. The Afc East is gonna be one of the toughest divisions to play in because all the teams are on the rise, except Miami right now. What good are Booker, Chambers, Boston, and McMike when you have noone to get them the ball? If Feeley shows progress we can go into next year with hope for him but if he falters early they've gotta have a backup plan because if he falters next season they're gonna be 3-13 again but they will have to go through another season of growing pains because of a rookie starting the next year.

 

[NaboCane]

I don't think they have to go out and spend a 1st rd pick on a franchise QB, but that they will need a franchise Qb to compete in the upcoming seasons. From what's been seen of AJ so far he has not shown that he will be that, the reality is that right now AJ Feeley would might not even be the backup on any other Afc East's team roster. The point is Pittsburgh, Indy, New England, Philly, ATL, GB, Minnesota are the teams that I believe are the team's that have a shot at going deep into the playoffs and everyone of them has a franchise QB. Could the team make the playoffs with a stop-gap QB maybe, but I don't think so with all the good young QB's especially in the AFC. The Afc East is gonna be one of the toughest divisions to play in because all the teams are on the rise, except Miami right now. What good are Booker, Chambers, Boston, and McMike when you have noone to get them the ball? If Feeley shows progress we can go into next year with hope for him but if he falters early they've gotta have a backup plan because if he falters next season they're gonna be 3-13 again but they will have to go through another season of growing pains because of a rookie starting the next year.

Then we agree! (except on Feeley - I don't think we, nor the coaches, have enough information to judge him yet - but you certainly could be right)

We WILL need a good QB to succeed, no doubt about it; I just don't think it's a wise move to invest a top-5 (especially first-overall) pick on one this year.

Good coaching can take a guy from the 3rd-5th round - with the right skillset - and teach him what he needs to succeed. give him the intangibles. A guy like Orlovsky, or the kid from Louisville, for instance. (although I have doubts about his height)

 

[Phishstix]

Deconstruct it down the the sub-microscopic level until you totally lose sight of reality if you want, but it doesn't change facts - most teams win Superbowls without a "franchise" QB that they gave up a first-round pick for.

That's not opinion, that's fact.

it's actually about 50% both ways. 10 out of the 11 1st rounders to win SBs were top 5 picks, 3 first rounders didn't win w/ the tea that drafted them, and 4 first round and 4 non-firsts qbs have won multiple super bowls. stabler and farve were 2nd rounders, and a couple of others were 3rd rounders, so they were at least day 1 picks in today's terms; starr, unitas, montana, and brady were simply outstanding finds and all are HOF's (brady may be premature), young was a supplemental pick that went to the usfl before the draft, and staubach had navy commitments. so no, it doesn't take a first round qb to win a SB, but it helps. however, qbs with their original team have won 23 SBs, so something may be said about that. only 5 true journeymen qbs have won an SB, so drafting one has been successful for most franchises.
sb/qb/1st rd y or n
1-starr, n
2-starr, n
3-namath, y
4-dawson, y
5-unitas, n
6-staubach, n
7-griese, y
8-griese, y
9-bradshaw, y
10-bradshaw, y
11-stabler, n
12-staubach, n
13-bradshaw, y
14-bradshaw, y
15-plunkett, y
16-montana, n
17-theismann, n
18-plunkett, y
19-montana, n
20-mcmahon, y
21-simms, y
22-williams, y
23-montana, n
24-montana, n
25-hostettler, n
26-rypien, n
27-aikman, y
28-aikman, y
29-young, n
30-aikman, y
31-farve, n
32-elway, y
33-elway, y
34-warner, n
35-dilfer, y
36-brady, n
37-johnson, n
38-brady, n

 

[MNFINFAN]

I dont know if Feeley is the answer but to give him the benefit of the doubt I would try to get one of those second tier QB who could turn out to be as good or better than the top two.Charlie Frye or Orlovsky have the tools.

We will need a QB anyway to back up Feeley next year.I voted item No.2.

Ditto what he said....

 

[NaboCane]

...however, qbs with their original team have won 23 SBs, so something may be said about that. only 5 true journeymen qbs have won an SB, so drafting one has been successful for most franchises...

And I agree wholeheratedly that we should draft one in '05; just not with a top-5 pick. The guys there don't have tangible value, and value is what I feel we need out of this draft.