Buyer Beware - Comparing QB's- Kolb, Flynn, Young - Palmer, Hasselbeck and Bulger

[Vaark]

His real wonderlic score was 16, exactly the same score as a certain Mr. Dan Marino

No his second tutored score was a pitiful 16; his real first score was 6.

And do you really think that if Marino took the test today with all the help and tutoring available, it would still have been 16? What does that say about someone on a retest who could only score 16 even with hungry agents propping him up and securing the help he needs.

Mr Dan Marino through his actions disproved his score; Vince Young by dint of his words and misdeeds confirmed his score. Lemon, Culpepper, AJ Feeley, Lucas and Marcus Vick all were sub-20 scorers. How did that work out?

 

[sharp]

I think you should include orton in the analysis and videos.. I think he's more viable to place up there than flynn

 

[Cali Finfan]

Sure seems like a crap shoot. I for one do not want to waste next years draft picks on Palmer, Kolb and Orton. If they were cut (Not LIkely) I would be for bringing him in. Bulger would only be able to push Henne but I don't think he would outright win the job. Vince Young is too much of a head case and I really don't want him anywhere near this team. We will see what happens but we need to bring someone in to compete for sure.

 

[CpuFan]

Added Kyle Orton to the list if anymore should be added let me know.
As for Orton he does work well with Brandon Marshall that we know.
And I can't think of any off field issues either.

 

[CpuFan]

Several commentators have also mentioned Brian Hoyer, Brady's backup in New England. I don't know much about him but he's likely to be a lot cheaper than the others listed above and it could be good to have Henne compete for the job rather than just hand it to Palmer, Kolb, VY, et al.

I thought about adding Brian Hoyer whom you thought about. But the thought of trading with NE made my stomach churn, LOL. But seriously if you think they will do it, I will add him. I just don't think they will. Let me know

 

[s70pimp]

Added Kyle Orton to the list if anymore should be added let me know.
As for Orton he does work well with Brandon Marshall that we know.
And I can't think of any off field issues either.

Orton has the history and won't cost a 1st round pick. Maybe we send a fourth round pick to denver with a defensive player that we don't really need. He will compete with Henne for sure.

 

[enduro]

As you can see from our draft, We will be signing a vet qb. Bulger looks headed to the cards. Even though Miami heavily scouted Kolb he seems more like a west coast type qb. That should be evident more today then it was on draft day. Seattle will make a heavy play for him. So will wash. That leaves us with. dah dah dah daaaaaaa!!!!! Palmer. Would you trade a 1 for the playoffs. I would. He has alot of life in him. Sure Palmer ideally would like to go home but warm weather, no state taxes and playoffs could change his mind. Think big guys....

Ross wants some star power this year. Other qb's on the level of Henne are not going to cut it. think big.

 

[Aqua and Orange]

Palmer might have some Rich Gannon Lazarus type upside but the costs associated with acquiring and paying him don't really justify bringing him in as a stopgap. Aside from that he's calling his own plays on this one and they involve getting closer to home like 45mins by air in Glendale AZ or 2hrs away playing for his old USC Coach in the rainy Pacific NW.

Kolb is AJ Feeley Redux, down to his spotty good and bad performance over a limited sampling. Factor in that he was taken only a few picks above Beck and comes from a pass happy spread U of Houston offense, and while we might invest a 4th on him, given the question marks anything above that is folly.

Flynn looked good again in a very limited, pressure-free setting and as Jamarcus Russell's LSU successor, I find that worrisome. We'd be buying a pig in a poke for this late rounder which is okay if he costs us nothing more than another late rounder.

Bulger is so reminiscent of when we brought in Trent Green - there are so many parallels that it's downright eerie. Pass

Hasselbeck - well if can stay healthy, maybe he would have been good as a short term stopgap and mentor for Ryan Mallett, but since, in their infinite wisdom, our all knowng FO decided to take a center who can't snap and the 4th best RB in a plentiful draft instead of perhaps the next Emmit Smith and Mallett, then no.. Hasselbeck is of no use to us thanks. Aside from that, his brother's a moron so he loses points there too.

Vince Young and his Wonderlic 6. There are folks on this board who claim Henne has nothing between his ears yet want Young. I find this confounding. This could be dumbest guy by word and deed in the NFL although Cromartie might give him a run for his money. From his sensitivity, overreaction and disrespect to fans as a result of being booed, to drunken brawls in nightclubs, to disrespecting coaches and letting his team down to being injury prone to having the Titan playbook dumbed down for him, I sure wouldn't put this specimen anywhere in Amish Country, let alone near SoBe.!!!!

Couldn't have put it better myself.

The biggest indication of idiocy from this organization? The fact that they are saying they will NEED to address QB in free agency in a year when free agency might not happen. I'm not sure if they are surrounded by yes men or what, but someone needs to wake Ireland and Sparano up to the actual lack of options at QB outside of the draft.

 

[HomesteadHorn]

How would you feel if you had won 15 of your last 20 starts, were in the top 5 in pass efficiency, had your team in the playoff hunt, and yet your coach still wanted to find any excuse to bench you for Kerry Collins? What happened in that locker room had been building for years. Ever since Fisher made Collins the starter in '08 and fed a bogus story to the police about VY being suicidal. Ever since Fisher stubbornly stuck with Collins through the 0-6 start in '09, only to be forced by the owner to start VY and watch the team finish 8-2. VY had to watch a rookie take over for him despite feeling well enough to return, and the resulting loss was too much for him to take. He played the best football of his life in '10, and his own coach was standing in his way. The divorce had to happen. Fisher just did not want VY as his QB, no matter what VY proved on the field.

If you don't want a proven winner with a chip on his shoulder whose game is just now starting to peak, you're the one who is the headcase.

 

[JEDIJ007]

Good post, very detailed . . . thanks.

I agree, I don't wanna give up any high picks for mediocre QB's with insane contracts . . . and the free ones have head cases or are just plain not good enough.

I'll dip into the 2012 QB class if Henne isn't the answer this season. No need to panic if your Miami, but maybe they will.

How is this a good post. cutting and pasting stats and videos. this is garbage.

 

[Fish-Head]

The hilarious thing is... Ok admittedly maybe it is not funny at all... Is that the available FA options have almost as many questions surrounding them as do the prospects in this years draft class!!!! Except for one fun fact... the best of them are likely to cost us MULTIPLE picks next year instead of ONE this year, if Ireland and co. had just bothered to pull the trigger on draft day!!! Actually not fun at all.

 

[hayjay2000]

I'd have to say, I would go with Carson Palmer, if that were possible. I'm a Dolphins fan through and through, but I've always liked Palmer and his NO-BS attitude. Like, one memory I have was when Chad Ochocinco (before he changed his last name from Johnson to Ochocinco), came out in a jersey that had an "Ochocinco" nameplate on top of his "Johnson" and Palmer came up, ripped off the "Ochocinco", and threw it back at Chad.

Palmer has the ability to be a GREAT starter, as was proven the year his knee got TRASHED by Pittsburgh in the playoffs, but since then, his line got worse, and his team became a laughing stock because His authority got undermined by Ochocinco and Owens. I think without diva's like those two (Granted, Marshall is kind of a diva too, but NOT NEAR as bad as Owens or Ochocinco), Palmer will be able to go back to what he once was, a very possible MONSTER of a QB.

Sadly, I don't think we have a True chance at him, because I don't think the Bengals owner is going to back down from his stance on Palmer at all. I think he's going to force Palmer to return and PLAY FOR the Bengals, or retire, in which case, if he decided to retire, and return, He'll have to return to the Bengals because of contract situation.

 

[Kdawg954]

How is this a good post. cutting and pasting stats and videos. this is garbage.

I would have never youtubed these QB's on my own . . . he took his time out to pase six videos, made the stats readily availabe and I think that is worthy of a compliment

You don't have to agree with anything he says, but atleast he contributed and made things easier to access.

 

[Kdawg954]

Miami needs their first and 2nd round pick next year . . . we need to groom a young QB and we need a stud ILB next to Dansby. Next year's class as solid options at both positions.

I have heard Bulger may have some gas left in the tank after taking a year off and practicing against the Ravens defense. He probably is the best option, though if he is anything like he was towards the end at St. Louis he isn't gonna be successful.

 

[tennphin]

I live in TN, am a dolphin fan, and have watched tons of VY games over the course of his career (almost all)..it bothers me to see people trashing him without having any clue of what went down in TN, and without having watched him play at all. Newsflash: ESPN's goal is entertainment, drama, getting viewers. As had been proven numerous times, you should not take their word for fact. If you really think they follow the small-market Titans carefully, you're crazy..

Here's the VY situation, and why as a Dolphin fan, I think he's by far and away the best option for us right now.

First, the "mental problems": Vince had a problem with ONE person in TN--Jeff Fisher. His teammates liked him (CJ/Britt especially wanted him back--Britt even got fined for writing "10" on his towel in a game after the ****storm), and his other coaches like him (old QB coach wanted Minny to bring him in). As any real Titan fan will tell you, the situation was far from a one-sided problem. Fisher never wanted Vince as the starter, and fought to undermine Vince at every possible moment. Amazingly, Skip Bayless is one of the only ESPN figure-heads that I have ever seen mention/understand this. Actually, you guys should be familiar with this situation--remember the TN-MIA game, where Collins started bc Vince was "hurt", but then Vince came in and ran around looking completely healthy? Well, immediately afterwards, Vince immediately got criticized by fans and ESPN for "not showing heart and sucking up his injury" to play. Next game, Vince gets his thumb injury, wants to go back in and Fisher won't let him. Titans lose in OT. Later it comes out that Vince begged to play the MIA game and finish the Wash game, but Fisher wouldn't let him. These are only the 2 last occurrences in a long stream of them, but seriously, how can the guy win?
I'm not saying Vince is blameless, but it is very 2-sided, and compared to other behavioral problems around the NFL, Vince's is far from major. He is a great teammate and leader, but had a problem with an overrated, egotistical coach who was trying to get rid of him behind his back.

Passing ability/accuracy/QB intelligence: At the beginning, this was a fair criticism. However, anyone who still uses this against Vince clearly has not watched him play in the last two years. Vince has made huge strides in the last few years as a passer. This is very evident by watching his games, but if that's not enough, just look at the stats: 2 years ago his QB rating was in the 80s (ok, only solid, but that was while taking an 0-6 team and going 8-2 the rest of the year). One highlight was his 99-yd 2 minute drill to beat AZN. Last year, before being injured, he had a top 5 QB rating of 98, and the Titans were the highest scoring team in the league--during this time, CJ was nowhere near his level of the year before, and as any Titan fan will tell you, VY looked great and the offense moved far more efficiently through the air than the ground.
Keep in mind that throughout all of his years in TN, he has only had CJ for these last 2, and his WRs have been terrible (best one has been Britt last year, in his second year as a pro..but still no Brandon Marshall)
I think Intelligence is hard to prove without being in the huddle, but I would not just take ESPNs word on rumors like that..VY may not be a genius, but again, he showed huge improvement in the passing game--both in accuracy and making the proper reads, checkdowns, etc.

Work ethic: Again, this could be an ESPN gossip thing, but even if somewhat true: He is playing for a coach and fanbase that he hates and hates him. That will definitely suck some motivation out of you. Also, work ethic is something that can be changed quite easily, as has happened for numerous athletes in the history of sports. Get Vince in a good situation and this probably isn't a problem.

Miami: To touch on the "good situation" thing, Vince apparently loves the city of Miami,

Wins: In the end, what matters more than this? 30-17, among the best in the NFL. He has proven to have that "X-factor" or clutchness as shown in college and in numerous NFL comebacks (ex: AZN above). I know this is a used-up argument for VY, but it's worth noting how many times he has turned TN around from terrible starts to great finishes and vice-versa. People like to "debunk" this by showing his record vs. .500+ teams, which is around .500--BUT, if you compare this to all of the QBs in the league, Vince's record is again among the best of the best, behind only a few like Brady, Brees, Manning, etc.

Mobility: Skills go without saying, but he has actually run a lot less in the last few years. In fact, many TN fans probably think he should have run more at times in the last year or two.

Value vs. other FA QBs:
Here's how I look at it:
1. Don't have to trade away a pick or anything.
2. Salary will likely be lower than Palmer, Kolb, and others.
3. Maximum upside--talent has never been a question. If he's happy and working hard, he could be a great one. Plus, he should be hungry.
4. Younger (no pun intended) than most of others. Palmer, Hasselback, Bulger etc are all getting up there, on the downswing, and are not long-term options. Vince could up being a long-term guy if he works out. (I mean seriously, people would rather sign Hasselback???? That guy is sooo washed up)
5. More proven and ready to play than Kolb (I still don't understand the hype on this guy), or a future draft QB--He's won games and played well, just needs a better situation and coach.

All this said, I don't know why we wouldn't bring Vince in on a 2-3 yr contract, give him a shot and see what happens. By the time other guys develop, all our other weapons could be gone. Worst case--You lose a relatively small amount of money on a failed signing, and then draft another one with a likely high pick. Best case--You just got a dynamic franchise QB that will win games and be a deadly/unique/exciting weapon in the backfield, ultra-cheap and ready to play from day 1.
Given everything else, Palmer is the only other guy I'd consider (depending on the price-both salary and trade), but none of the others seem like good options to me.