detroit wont take cutler-martz

[Motion]

You can also take the Texans out of the Vince Young race completely now (as if they weren't already out of it). They just exercised the $8 million option on David Carr's contract.

And then they have the cajones to say that this move has nothing to do with the first pick in the draft, lol. I love PFT's latest quote on it. "Umm, your mascot is a red and blue starry-eyed bull, not a pile of steaming bullsh!t"

I'm telling ya, Young not going to the Texans, not going to the Saints (Mickey Loomis sounded off some STRONG words about the historical failures of running QBs prior to the Rose Bowl)...IMO, not going to the Titans due to compatibility issues...Jets staring at the prospect of trading an overpaid malcontent injury-prone DE for Phil Rivers...Green Bay's got their man...Does Al Davis take him? San Fran has their man. Buffalo has their man. Denny Green is too vertically oriented and are all about LenDale in Glendale right now. Detroit hired Martz which means I have a better chance of marrying Giselle Bundchen than they do of drafting Vince Young. Will Scott Linehan take him? (valid question). Cleveland has their man (not because of the 3rd round investment, but because of the fan hype and overall optimism from staff regarding Frye). Baltimore is a MESS and will not take a QB. Atlanta might be in for an eventual divorce with Vick, but they won't replace Vick with Vick the Greater. That leaves Miami.

Overall I find three main questions need to be answered before we know whether Young reaches pick #16.

1. Will the Raiders take him? Al Davis loves value, loves offense, loves cast-offs, and probably would love Young's attitude. But, he has Jerry Porter and Randy Moss, where Vince (not unlike Vick) doesn't get the most out of his receivers and does not exploit the vertical passing game. Solid question here. Vince could be a Raider.

2. Will Scott Linehan take him? I think this is a valid question. He has Marc Bulger but Marc Bulger does not have the kind of arm and mobility that Scott normally prefers. Remember, before Scott left us, we were rumored to be interested in Vince, but not interested in Rivers, because of Rivers' arm and mobility. Bulger is a smart, highly paid QB with high accuracy and low arm strength and mobility, where normally Scott views the value in QBs to be more in the arm strength and mobility than in the smarts and the accuracy. Vince does have a strong arm, I think his 70 yard throws and low trajectory let us safely say he has a strong arm...and he's obviously got his legs. This is a QB I think that Scott could work with, especially with Scott's extensive use of the shotgun lending itself to Vince's strengths. This is also a truly valid question.

3. Will someone sense that Miami may take Young, and trade up to get him? At this point it is really hard to answer that question. You've got a whole lot of teams picking below us that could move up, a lot of them do need QBs, but there's generally an aversion to doing this. Still, it's about as valid a question as the other two.

Overall I'd have to say that each of those questions have about a 20% probability so I come away thinking there's a 40% chance Miami is staring at Vince Young on the board at #16.

Interesting. This draft could be VERY exciting.

 

[cowtowndick]

ok, i'll bite, and ask the question no one else will...if he does drop to #16, what makes him a great choice for us? if his style isn't suited to a vertical passing game, and everything i've read/seen about our offensive philosophy suggests that the vertical game is very important to us, do we ignore the red flags (regarding how well matched young is or isn't for our offense, also the fact that some very qb hungry teams passed on him) and draft him anyway? if others passed, why wouldn't we pass on him as well?

 

[NorFlaFin]

If Matt L fell to 16 I'd take him, If V.Y. fell? noper way too much of a project.

 

[Motion]

ok, i'll bite, and ask the question no one else will...if he does drop to #16, what makes him a great choice for us? if his style isn't suited to a vertical passing game, and everything i've read/seen about our offensive philosophy suggests that the vertical game is very important to us, do we ignore the red flags (regarding how well matched young is or isn't for our offense, also the fact that some very qb hungry teams passed on him) and draft him anyway? if others passed, why wouldn't we pass on him as well?

I assume your talking about Young, if so I REALLY hope we pass.

 

[fishypete]

You can also take the Texans out of the Vince Young race completely now (as if they weren't already out of it). They just exercised the $8 million option on David Carr's contract.

And then they have the cajones to say that this move has nothing to do with the first pick in the draft, lol. I love PFT's latest quote on it. "Umm, your mascot is a red and blue starry-eyed bull, not a pile of steaming bullsh!t"

I'm telling ya, Young not going to the Texans, not going to the Saints (Mickey Loomis sounded off some STRONG words about the historical failures of running QBs prior to the Rose Bowl)...IMO, not going to the Titans due to compatibility issues...Jets staring at the prospect of trading an overpaid malcontent injury-prone DE for Phil Rivers...Green Bay's got their man...Does Al Davis take him? San Fran has their man. Buffalo has their man. Denny Green is too vertically oriented and are all about LenDale in Glendale right now. Detroit hired Martz which means I have a better chance of marrying Giselle Bundchen than they do of drafting Vince Young. Will Scott Linehan take him? (valid question). Cleveland has their man (not because of the 3rd round investment, but because of the fan hype and overall optimism from staff regarding Frye). Baltimore is a MESS and will not take a QB. Atlanta might be in for an eventual divorce with Vick, but they won't replace Vick with Vick the Greater. That leaves Miami.

Overall I find three main questions need to be answered before we know whether Young reaches pick #16.

1. Will the Raiders take him? Al Davis loves value, loves offense, loves cast-offs, and probably would love Young's attitude. But, he has Jerry Porter and Randy Moss, where Vince (not unlike Vick) doesn't get the most out of his receivers and does not exploit the vertical passing game. Solid question here. Vince could be a Raider.

2. Will Scott Linehan take him? I think this is a valid question. He has Marc Bulger but Marc Bulger does not have the kind of arm and mobility that Scott normally prefers. Remember, before Scott left us, we were rumored to be interested in Vince, but not interested in Rivers, because of Rivers' arm and mobility. Bulger is a smart, highly paid QB with high accuracy and low arm strength and mobility, where normally Scott views the value in QBs to be more in the arm strength and mobility than in the smarts and the accuracy. Vince does have a strong arm, I think his 70 yard throws and low trajectory let us safely say he has a strong arm...and he's obviously got his legs. This is a QB I think that Scott could work with, especially with Scott's extensive use of the shotgun lending itself to Vince's strengths. This is also a truly valid question.

3. Will someone sense that Miami may take Young, and trade up to get him? At this point it is really hard to answer that question. You've got a whole lot of teams picking below us that could move up, a lot of them do need QBs, but there's generally an aversion to doing this. Still, it's about as valid a question as the other two.

Overall I'd have to say that each of those questions have about a 20% probability so I come away thinking there's a 40% chance Miami is staring at Vince Young on the board at #16.

The Key for Miami is what does Saban do with Ricky....if he trades him, then I believe it's obvious that Saban has a plan to move up to either grab the Brick or Young....if he doesn't trade Ricky...then Saban stay's where he is and lets the chips fall where the may. The team that may be forgotten as a player for a QB are the Jets....Pennington is done...two surgeries on his throwing shoulder...is two...two many. The other teams that may turn out to be a player in the first round could be the Broncos and the Pats. Depending on what happens with T.O. the Broncos could package a deal and move up to try to get Reggie Bush....with Bush and T.O., the Broncos would be a very improved team on offense. The Pats are another team that could very well package a deal to move up...they do have multiple picks in the mid rounds and Dillon has alot of miles on him....having Bush on the Pats team doesn't make ones stomach feel good. Last but least, Green Bay has O-line needs...they could be a team that would like to trade down...to acquire additional picks...a team that the Dolphins have traded with many times before.

 

[fishypete]

ok, i'll bite, and ask the question no one else will...if he does drop to #16, what makes him a great choice for us? if his style isn't suited to a vertical passing game, and everything i've read/seen about our offensive philosophy suggests that the vertical game is very important to us, do we ignore the red flags (regarding how well matched young is or isn't for our offense, also the fact that some very qb hungry teams passed on him) and draft him anyway? if others passed, why wouldn't we pass on him as well?

You don't throw for over 3000 yds...at a 65% comp rating...and at a 9.3 yds per att....and not have a vertical passing game.

 

[Hostile 17]

I'll say this one more time for the cheap seats: Vince Young is the second coming of Akili Smith. The man cannot read coverages, has a run-first mentality and did not play in a pro-style system in college.

Hype all you like, the smart scouts will quietly shy away from Young and, once April rolls around, the hysteria of his last college game will be a memory and reality will set in for those wise enough to think clear-headedly.

Having said that, I hope Saban follows his own instincts and not all the gassy hype and keeps his eyes focused on Cutler. If not Cutler in the first, than Whitehurst in the 2nd or 3rd. Jay Cutler IS Brett Favre 2.0 (if "coached up" properly) and Charlie Whitehurst is starting to look a lot like the next Ben Roethlesberger.

Whomever drafts Vince Young will be getting the booby-prize of the 2006 NFL Draft.

 

[Motion]

I'll say this one more time for the cheap seats: Vince Young is the second coming of Akili Smith. The man cannot read coverages, has a run-first mentality and did not play in a pro-style system in college.

Hype all you like, the smart scouts will quietly shy away from Young and, once April rolls around, the hysteria of his last college game will be a memory and reality will set in for those wise enough to think clear-headedly.

Having said that, I hope Saban follows his own instincts and not all the gassy hype and keeps his eyes focused on Cutler. If not Cutler in the first, than Whitehurst in the 2nd or 3rd. Jay Cutler IS Brett Favre 2.0 (if "coached up" properly) and Charlie Whitehurst is starting to look a lot like the next Ben Roethlesberger.

Whomever drafts Vince Young will be getting the booby-prize of the 2006 NFL Draft.

:D Right on

 

[fishypete]

I'll say this one more time for the cheap seats: Vince Young is the second coming of Akili Smith. The man cannot read coverages, has a run-first mentality and did not play in a pro-style system in college.

Hype all you like, the smart scouts will quietly shy away from Young and, once April rolls around, the hysteria of his last college game will be a memory and reality will set in for those wise enough to think clear-headedly.

Having said that, I hope Saban follows his own instincts and not all the gassy hype and keeps his eyes focused on Cutler. If not Cutler in the first, than Whitehurst in the 2nd or 3rd. Jay Cutler IS Brett Favre 2.0 (if "coached up" properly) and Charlie Whitehurst is starting to look a lot like the next Ben Roethlesberger.

Whomever drafts Vince Young will be getting the booby-prize of the 2006 NFL Draft.

Big surprise...not many college's run a pro-style offense....The Canes do...and just how good have their QB's been in the NFL?

The closest QB's in your case would be Leinart and Croyle. Hard to call a QB...that has won 98% of his games....thrown for over 3000 yds at a 65% comp rating...and one of the highest yds per att rating, a booby prize.

I think I'll take his receivers and coaches opinions of how he does reads defense's, over a fans.

 

[Hostile 17]

Fishy, I'll comfort myself in knowing that yourself and one other poster are accounting for about 90% of the pro-Young posts on these forums. No, I'm not buying into the hype of another 'running QB'.

Take a look at the best passers of this year, including the playoffs. What do you see? Despite all the noise and bluster, the best quarterbacks in the NFL are the true pocket passers who both throw an accurate ball and read coverages well against a strong pass rush.

It's true that mobility means more nowadays than it did in Marino's time. But I put it to you that "mobility" can be characterized simply enough as the ability to shift and move footwork - roughly within the pocket - to avoid a sack and buy an extra second or two to throw. Dan Marino had this gift; so does Frerotte (regardless of his other weaknesses).

While the occasional scramble can help a QB in trouble (and I think even those with pedestrian legs can accomplish this much), the myth that a running QB like Culpepper or Vick can win a game for you is just that: a myth. And it's a threat that many defensive coordinators are already mitigating against.

 

[ckparrothead]

First off, there are MANY posters on this board favoring Young. Just for reference there's a poll going in VIP of whether we should take Young or pass on him if he lasts to #16, and currently the pro-Young voters are leading, though not by much.

Second, Pete, if Nick Saban trades Ricky it is not an indication that he is moving up. Saban has said he places a high value on draft picks. Last year we didn't have a 2nd rounder and so he traded Surtain for one and we used it on Roth, not to move up. This could be a very similar situation. I find it very likely that Saban wants to pick up all the good SEC players that he knows while he still knows them...and that will only last a few more years. So, Saban likely is placing an even higher premium on early draft choices.

 

[Finfanforever]

The Key for Miami is what does Saban do with Ricky....if he trades him, then I believe it's obvious that Saban has a plan to move up to either grab the Brick or Young....if he doesn't trade Ricky...then Saban stay's where he is and lets the chips fall where the may. The team that may be forgotten as a player for a QB are the Jets....Pennington is done...two surgeries on his throwing shoulder...is two...two many. The other teams that may turn out to be a player in the first round could be the Broncos and the Pats. Depending on what happens with T.O. the Broncos could package a deal and move up to try to get Reggie Bush....with Bush and T.O., the Broncos would be a very improved team on offense. The Pats are another team that could very well package a deal to move up...they do have multiple picks in the mid rounds and Dillon has alot of miles on him....having Bush on the Pats team doesn't make ones stomach feel good. Last but least, Green Bay has O-line needs...they could be a team that would like to trade down...to acquire additional picks...a team that the Dolphins have traded with many times before.

How do you know that if Saban trades Ricky he'll make a play for D'Brick or Young? How do you know it's not Cutler? Young is a GREAT athlete BUT...WILL HE BE A GREAT NFL QB? or a GOOD QB for that matter? Maybe...but from what I have read, scouts are either very curious about his abilities or they "won't touch him with a ten-foot pole" I have a hunch (I said hunch) that Saban likes Cutler, Croyle, or even Whithurst. After that we just MAY see a trade to bring a vet in here. I personally think Saban makes the move to land Cutler or takes Croyle in the late 2nd or early 3rd.
Pete, I know YOU HATE Cutler...but aren't you being a little presumptuous here?

 

[Finfanforever]

Fishy, I'll comfort myself in knowing that yourself and one other poster are accounting for about 90% of the pro-Young posts on these forums. No, I'm not buying into the hype of another 'running QB'.

Take a look at the best passers of this year, including the playoffs. What do you see? Despite all the noise and bluster, the best quarterbacks in the NFL are the true pocket passers who both throw an accurate ball and read coverages well against a strong pass rush.

It's true that mobility means more nowadays than it did in Marino's time. But I put it to you that "mobility" can be characterized simply enough as the ability to shift and move footwork - roughly within the pocket - to avoid a sack and buy an extra second or two to throw. Dan Marino had this gift; so does Frerotte (regardless of his other weaknesses).

While the occasional scramble can help a QB in trouble (and I think even those with pedestrian legs can accomplish this much), the myth that a running QB like Culpepper or Vick can win a game for you is just that: a myth. And it's a threat that many defensive coordinators are already mitigating against.

Good post. I agree. Even Michael Vick isn't as HOT as everyone thought he WOULD be because let's face it...he's a GREAT RUNNER but only AVERAGE PASSER. No thanks...I'll pass on Young.

 

[Finfanforever]

I'll say this one more time for the cheap seats: Vince Young is the second coming of Akili Smith. The man cannot read coverages, has a run-first mentality and did not play in a pro-style system in college.

Hype all you like, the smart scouts will quietly shy away from Young and, once April rolls around, the hysteria of his last college game will be a memory and reality will set in for those wise enough to think clear-headedly.

Having said that, I hope Saban follows his own instincts and not all the gassy hype and keeps his eyes focused on Cutler. If not Cutler in the first, than Whitehurst in the 2nd or 3rd. Jay Cutler IS Brett Favre 2.0 (if "coached up" properly) and Charlie Whitehurst is starting to look a lot like the next Ben Roethlesberger.

Whomever drafts Vince Young will be getting the booby-prize of the 2006 NFL Draft.

Hostile...the one thing I love about your posts is the way you "beat around the bush" :sidelol: Gee...tell Pete what you REALLY think! :sidelol:

 

[fishypete]

First off, there are MANY posters on this board favoring Young. Just for reference there's a poll going in VIP of whether we should take Young or pass on him if he lasts to #16, and currently the pro-Young voters are leading, though not by much.

Second, Pete, if Nick Saban trades Ricky it is not an indication that he is moving up. Saban has said he places a high value on draft picks. Last year we didn't have a 2nd rounder and so he traded Surtain for one and we used it on Roth, not to move up. This could be a very similar situation. I find it very likely that Saban wants to pick up all the good SEC players that he knows while he still knows them...and that will only last a few more years. So, Saban likely is placing an even higher premium on early draft choices.

CK...I can't dispute that Saban likes draft picks....but so does his mentor...and we know he has used them to move up at times. My line of thinking is this....you don't trade away a top player unless you believe you are going to get the same value or more...with that pick....that kind of value is found in the top 5 draft picks in this draft. Take away Bush and Leinart...I don't believe they would fit in our plans....that leaves the Brick, Young and Hawk. Out of those players...is Hawk that good above all other Linebackers and worth that price? Maybe...but I don't see a large gap between him and the other top 3 or 4 linebackers in this draft...to me that leaves the Brick and Young. If Saban selected either one of them I would be happy....both are special and upgrades the team....Brick and Croyle....or Young and Scott, or Mangold and or Lawson would be a great one-two draft. IMHO of course.