Diluted

[FinfanInBuffalo]

iMO, this is a pretty ridiculous comparison. Wanny the GM/Wanny the HC! WTF?? This is where I think alot of folks get screwed up in yheir defense of Wanny. If Wanny didn't know what he needed, as a GM, then how in the hell can you expect him to coach? I mean, seriously now, if Wanny the coach knows he needs this or that then why didn't he as the GM go out and get it? Face it, Wannstedt is simply a lost ball in tall grass and won't get the job done.

Sorry, but I disagree. GM and coaching are completely different jobs. There are many examples of a person not handling both jobs well. Don Shula (at the end of his career) is a good recent example for Fin fans.

Its not a matter of not knowing what he needs. Its a matter of being able to recognize if a particular player has it.

In addition, the GM and the coach have different perspectives. I can see the coach being more likely to make decisions that he thinks will help the team win now, while the GM might be more inclined to take a longer range view.

As long as they don't have different philosophies (see Buffalo last year), I prefer to have the GM and the coach be separate.

 

[PhinstiGator]

Therein lies the problem.........."Hope", you can waste alot of years hoping if you ignore the facts and fail to use logic and reason...

You can waste plenty of time living in the past and hoping for a super hero coach to ride in and save the day.

Or, you can support what we have and hope for the best.

 

[inFINSible]

Sorry, but I disagree. GM and coaching are completely different jobs. There are many examples of a person not handling both jobs well. Don Shula (at the end of his career) is a good recent example for Fin fans.

Its not a matter of not knowing what he needs. Its a matter of being able to recognize if a particular player has it.

In addition, the GM and the coach have different perspectives. I can see the coach being more likely to make decisions that he thinks will help the team win now, while the GM might be more inclined to take a longer range view.

As long as they don't have different philosophies (see Buffalo last year), I prefer to have the GM and the coach be separate.

Along those same lines, Wannstedt drafted Jamar Fletcher in response to our weakness at the third corner spot. Bad choice but, at least he identified the problem. Next pick, WR, another weakness...How did that one turn out? Then he gets Morlon Greenwood(giving up the next years' second in the process) because we had a weakness at outside linebacker...again, debatable choice, but still a proper identification of the problem.

The following year, we have no first because he identified another problem and got a franchise running back, we have no second because of the previously mentioned Greenwood acquisition. Who do we take in the third, an offensive lineman, again a correct indentification of a weakness....we didn't have a receiving tightend for Norvs new offense, so who was the next selection?...Randy McMichael. Another need addressed.

now without going through the rest of our selections on an individual basis I'm willing to bet that most if not all can be directly associated with a need on this team.

Perhaps his most dubious selection as compared to need was, Eddie Moore but, other than that one example and the fact that his selections may have been below par I absolutely agree that....

Its not a matter of not knowing what he needs. Its a matter of being able to recognize if a particular player has it.

 

[MDFINFAN]

You know, I remember how the New England Patriots started out last year, they didn't have a chance, the team had no captain, 1st game 30-0 A kicking by Buf. The sky has fallen on their seaon......Hmm what happen at the end?

 

[NoOffense]

You can waste plenty of time living in the past and hoping for a super hero coach to ride in and save the day.

Or, you can support what we have and hope for the best.

Who said anything about HOPING for a super-hero coach to ride in?

Hope is what all you Wanny apologists cling too, I want a head coach who has proven himself at some level to be a great leader of players, one who doesn't rely on lobster traps and Pat Riley to motivate his team, one who shows the ability to make gametime adjustments and puts the throttle down and goes for the throat when he has an opponent down.

One who's philosophy is NOT play to not lose and keep it close till the fourth quarter hoping to pull out a win.

 

[inFINSible]

Who said anything about HOPING for a super-hero coach to ride in?

Hope is what all you Wanny apologists cling too, I want a head coach who has proven himself at some level to be a great leader of players, one who doesn't rely on lobster traps and Pat Riley to motivate his team, one who shows the ability to make gametime adjustments and puts the throttle down and goes for the throat when he has an opponent down.

One who's philosophy is NOT play to not lose and keep it close till the fourth quarter hoping to pull out a win.

Want in one hand........

 

[Buddy]

As most of you have said, I think that Wanny is a pretty bad GM (he hasn't had a good draft or offseason in Miami or Chicago) but his game plans are usually pretty good but not great. I think that Spielman has made some really good moves this offseason and I really like his draft. If Wanny can succeed, this will be the year. I truly think that his downfall has been his inability to evaluate and draft/sign players.

 

[PhinstiGator]

Who said anything about HOPING for a super-hero coach to ride in?

Hope is what all you Wanny apologists cling too, I want a head coach who has proven himself at some level to be a great leader of players, one who doesn't rely on lobster traps and Pat Riley to motivate his team, one who shows the ability to make gametime adjustments and puts the throttle down and goes for the throat when he has an opponent down.

One who's philosophy is NOT play to not lose and keep it close till the fourth quarter hoping to pull out a win.

You want a great leader that shares YOUR philosophy. I'm not a Wannstedt apologist. I could care less who the coach is. It's the players who play the game of football...not some image of a hero coach screaming on the sideline (fantasy).

Wannstedts philosophy is to win with a great defense, the running game, and a field position style of game that controls the clock. I understand that philosophy and accept it as a tried and proven way to win Superbowls. Defense wins championships.

You can pretend that Wannstedt simply uses lobster traps and Riley to motivate his players. I suspect there is more to it than that. I don't see any lack of desire with our players. In fact, our players are highly motivated.

Wannstedt is a good coach. He is not yet a great one and may never be. Who cares? I don't watch the coach on Sundays. I watch the Miami Dolphin football team. That team is a product of talent, hard physical work, long hours of study, a complete coaching staff that teaches, instructs, corrects, and encourages, and a heart of a winning frachise.

Has this teamed failed under Wannstedt's leadership? Yes it has. Will it continue to fail? No one knows. A lot of fans "feel" that he can't have success with this team. I confront that with a solid hope that the Miami Dolphins is much more than the head coach or it's QB. It's the Miami Dolphins and there is always a reason for success.

 

[DeDolfan]

Are you implying that a great scout would be a great coach, or a great coach would be a great scout?

How, did Shula do as GM/Coach?

WTF??!! What part didn't you understand? I was saying that Wanny the HC apparently didn't know what he needed. Then wanny the GM didn't get what the coach needed. IMO, Wanny is neither.

BTW, why do you bring Shula into it as if he has anything to do with being able to defend wannstedt. That, IMO, is pretty weak!! :eek:

 

[DeDolfan]

Sorry, but I disagree. GM and coaching are completely different jobs. There are many examples of a person not handling both jobs well. Don Shula (at the end of his career) is a good recent example for Fin fans.

Its not a matter of not knowing what he needs. Its a matter of being able to recognize if a particular player has it.

In addition, the GM and the coach have different perspectives. I can see the coach being more likely to make decisions that he thinks will help the team win now, while the GM might be more inclined to take a longer range view.

As long as they don't have different philosophies (see Buffalo last year), I prefer to have the GM and the coach be separate.

I agree that the GM and HC should be separate. But it's not a matter of knowing what he needs?? Sorry, but this just confuses me to no end. Think about it for a minute. If he doesn't know what he needs, i don't know how he'll be able to determine if a player has it or not either. Look how our WRs and OL have pretty much gone south during his control.

i understand the hC thinks more of NOW while the GM looks down the road a bit. Normally that is so, but in our situation, it's a win now all the way for this FO.

 

[DeDolfan]

You can waste plenty of time living in the past and hoping for a super hero coach to ride in and save the day.

Or, you can support what we have and hope for the best.

We all hope for the best, regardless of the situation. However, hoping for it and thinking it will happen are two different things tho.

 

[DeDolfan]

Along those same lines, Wannstedt drafted Jamar Fletcher in response to our weakness at the third corner spot. Bad choice but, at least he identified the problem. Next pick, WR, another weakness...How did that one turn out? Then he gets Morlon Greenwood(giving up the next years' second in the process) because we had a weakness at outside linebacker...again, debatable choice, but still a proper identification of the problem.

The following year, we have no first because he identified another problem and got a franchise running back, we have no second because of the previously mentioned Greenwood acquisition. Who do we take in the third, an offensive lineman, again a correct indentification of a weakness....we didn't have a receiving tightend for Norvs new offense, so who was the next selection?...Randy McMichael. Another need addressed.

now without going through the rest of our selections on an individual basis I'm willing to bet that most if not all can be directly associated with a need on this team.

Perhaps his most dubious selection as compared to need was, Eddie Moore but, other than that one example and the fact that his selections may have been below par I absolutely agree that....

How was it he "identified" the Fletcher problem?
Trading for RW was "identifying another problem? gee, I think anyone could have done that. you're simply trying to make his draft choices seem like the efforts of a genius while the last time I noticed was that you draft positions you need, thus "identfying problems", I suppose. Face it, Wannstedt ain't no where close to being a wizard. Drafting a nickle back in the 1st round should tell you that. Blowing that pick pretty much cancels all the other OK picks he made.

BTW, morlon greenwood has nOTHING to do with next yr's second round pick, either!! :shakeno:

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

I agree that the GM and HC should be separate. But it's not a matter of knowing what he needs?? Sorry, but this just confuses me to no end. Think about it for a minute. If he doesn't know what he needs, i don't know how he'll be able to determine if a player has it or not either. Look how our WRs and OL have pretty much gone south during his control.

i understand the hC thinks more of NOW while the GM looks down the road a bit. Normally that is so, but in our situation, it's a win now all the way for this FO.

My point was that Wanny's failures as a GM were, IMO, not because he couldn't identify the needs of the team, they were due to the selection of the wrong players to fill those needs.

The other issue is how much priority is placed on the team needs. In 2003, the team needed a LB and a WR. That was not a surprise to Wanny. He decided that LB was more pressing or that Moore was a better player than Boldin. Dave decided to address the WR need with Thompson via FA. We have all read that Spielman would have gone with Boldin.

As long as he continues to identify the correct needs and Spielman fills those needs properly, we'll be fine.

BTW, I have no problem with the selection of a CB when Fletcher was selected or a LB when Moore was selected. Both were team needs. Fletcher turned out to be the wrong player. The jury is still out on Moore.

I also don't know how you can say that the WR situation has gone south since JJ left.

1999 Roster

WR Tony Martin (career was done)
WR O. J. McDuffie (career was done)
WR Yatil Green (career was done)
WR Oronde Gadsden
WR Nate Jacquet
WR Kevin McKenzie
WR Roell Preston
WR Larry Shannon

2003 Roster

WR Chris Chambers
WR Derrius Thompson
WR Oronde Gadsden
WR James McKnight
WR Kendall Newson
WR Sam Simmons

JJ didn't leave any legit WRs other than Gadsden. Wanny had to start over.

 

[dfinsfan]

I think Wanstadt could be a good Head Coach as long as he really is just sticking to coaching and not to personnel maters. He also needs to let offensive coaches run the teams' offense. I really wonder just how many times he took over the controls and played ultra conservative in the second half of games. I coach Youth tackle football and you never take your foot off the gas no matter what the score is because it can come back to bite you in the a... (i.e. the Monday night meltdown against the Jets

 

[DeDolfan]

My point was that Wanny's failures as a GM were, IMO, not because he couldn't identify the needs of the team, they were due to the selection of the wrong players to fill those needs.

The other issue is how much priority is placed on the team needs. In 2003, the team needed a LB and a WR. That was not a surprise to Wanny. He decided that LB was more pressing or that Moore was a better player than Boldin. Dave decided to address the WR need with Thompson via FA. We have all read that Spielman would have gone with Boldin.

As long as he continues to identify the correct needs and Spielman fills those needs properly, we'll be fine.

BTW, I have no problem with the selection of a CB when Fletcher was selected or a LB when Moore was selected. Both were team needs. Fletcher turned out to be the wrong player. The jury is still out on Moore.

I also don't know how you can say that the WR situation has gone south since JJ left.

1999 Roster

WR Tony Martin (career was done)
WR O. J. McDuffie (career was done)
WR Yatil Green (career was done)
WR Oronde Gadsden
WR Nate Jacquet
WR Kevin McKenzie
WR Roell Preston
WR Larry Shannon

2003 Roster

WR Chris Chambers
WR Derrius Thompson
WR Oronde Gadsden
WR James McKnight
WR Kendall Newson
WR Sam Simmons

JJ didn't leave any legit WRs other than Gadsden. Wanny had to start over.

That's pretty much true with the WRs but what i was getting at there was that Wanny hasn't exactly set the world on fire there either. CC is the only real contributor and the jury actually is still out on him since Wanny never followed up on the QB situation.

You still don't have a problem with the Fletcher pick in the first rnd even tho we had Surtain AND Madison? It kind goes against the grain to use a 1st rnd pick on nickle backs, wouldn't you think?