Full AFC East Grades (Plus NY Giants)

[Spesh]

Well, Daniel Thomas is definitely going to get some production. Miami only has Lex Hilliard on roster and Daniel was the only tailback drafted. Productive means yards, he'll get yards. But will he be doing really well? I think he could do alright, but long term I believe there were better ways to go. Miami laid a net, strikes me as thin, strikes me as very risky. EVERYTHING has to break the right way from here on out...or they could be in big trouble. And for THIS regime, after the Harbaugh fiasco, and with guys like Carl Peterson and Bill Cowher hanging around the periphery...they need things to break right to prevent getting cleaned out. I almost think getting cleaned out was inevitable for them. But, I do think that a young franchise QB that plays early (a little, not talking Day 1) and shows PROMISE would have bought them time.

Ask yourself this...with Daniel Thomas being "the" guy...what if he is not that good?

What if we can't get Carson Palmer? Does it even MATTER if Daniel Thomas and Mike Pouncey are good, if we don't have a QB?

What if the Defense actually, god forbid, suffers a little reversion to the mean? Some people aren't very convinced on Sean Smith, some more people aren't very convinced that Koa Misi gives us genuine pass rush. Cam Wake had a career year, what if he drops off? Joey Porter had a career year in 2008, dropped off something fierce in 2009. If that happens, does Koa Misi pick up the slack? I love Koa but I don't think he does.

A lot could go wrong but IMO if you get yourself a franchise QB that starts showing promise in your system...you place a BUFFER on yourselves...because as long as that guy looks good, and as long as YOU brought him in...you're a lot safer then you think.

Perfectly said. I keep going back to Jacksonville. Del Rio and company had to know they couldn't realistically make the playoffs this season. They just weren't 1 player away from turning that 7-9 squad into a 11-5 one. What do they do? They go out there and get what many considered to be the best quarterback prospect in the draft.

Even if there owner was serious about firing the coaching staff if they don't make the playoffs, he will have more then alittle hesitation and doubt if Gabbert starts showing promise.

By playing it safe, it could have the exact opposite results for our coaching staff.

 

[phintim]

I think you are letting your homerism influence your posts.

The past 2 days ive seen posts saying: "ha! Mallett is dropping, there is something we dont know!", then "Ha! He is still dropping, laughable that people wanted him at 15!". Then he finally ends up with the Patriots and its "Oh, well he sucks anyways." That sort of pure denial and blind homerism is mind boggling. You act as though any player that Ireland drafts is a home run and any player a division rival drafts is awful. And you have the audacity to declare others "influenced"?
The hypocrisy is especially amusing considering Chad Henne was a quarterback every team passed on(almost twice) yet we are now relying on. A player taken in the second round, a round which Ireland and others have admitted to making mistakes. Oh! Like Daniel Thomas. But hey, dont be influenced!

Ck stuck with the opinion he formed months ago. Its an opinion many of us shared because of research and projection. Many scouts and "experts" agreed with that opinion as they were very few on the field concerns about the prospect and many people starting talking complaining about things that had nothing to do with the quarterback position. I thought it was hilarious the "concern" that grew in the last 2 weeks that he didn't run fast enough to play quarterback.

Missing on a draft pick sure as hell influences your draft grade. But hey, if you want to talk purely about Daniel Thomas: why shouldnt he be a "D"? God forbid we grade someone badly who isnt fast, lacks burst, runs high, and fumbles the damn football. But wait! Ireland drafted him! He must be a stud! Because all of our second round picks have worked out so well in recent history. And i'm not being influenced at all!

Sometimes: you can dislike the selection and passing on a good player. It doesnt have to be one or the other. Ck posted a sentence "He did not impress me in 2009, but when I re-visited him in 2010 his pad level seemed to come down, and he looked a lot more instinctive, like a true tailback, rather than playing like an athlete." The fact that we continue to take projects for positions that shouldnt require it would make me give this entire draft a "F".

Every other team in the NFL manages to find running backs and interior linemen is later rounds with 0 problems. When Miami has to burn high draft picks to fill those same positions: you get a lower draft grade then other teams. Its a thing called value.

The thing you call value on the Thomas pick and defend CK on means you have not even studies Ck's universial draft guide where they have him projected to go round 2/3 as their 4th best RB in this draft which is exactly where we took him. Running back was a need period for the phins in this draft. Sure we can look in a crystal ball and say hey we can pick one just as good later but that is called gambling and when you have a need instead of a want then reasonably you do not do that. This draft looses value to me when we did not trade down in round 1 and gamble Pouncy would be their later and picked up that late 2nd rounder we used to trade up for Thomas. Only Ireland knows if he could not have traded down but his pattern in the past is that he does not do much of that and instead trades up a bit more than down which I personally do not like. He also IMO throws darts in the 7th round instead of the best productive player available IMO which is the way I would go.

 

[phillyphinphan]

Well, Daniel Thomas is definitely going to get some production. Miami only has Lex Hilliard on roster and Daniel was the only tailback drafted. Productive means yards, he'll get yards. But will he be doing really well? I think he could do alright, but long term I believe there were better ways to go. Miami laid a net, strikes me as thin, strikes me as very risky. EVERYTHING has to break the right way from here on out...or they could be in big trouble. And for THIS regime, after the Harbaugh fiasco, and with guys like Carl Peterson and Bill Cowher hanging around the periphery...they need things to break right to prevent getting cleaned out. I almost think getting cleaned out was inevitable for them. But, I do think that a young franchise QB that plays early (a little, not talking Day 1) and shows PROMISE would have bought them time.

Ask yourself this...with Daniel Thomas being "the" guy...what if he is not that good?

What if we can't get Carson Palmer? Does it even MATTER if Daniel Thomas and Mike Pouncey are good, if we don't have a QB?

What if the Defense actually, god forbid, suffers a little reversion to the mean? Some people aren't very convinced on Sean Smith, some more people aren't very convinced that Koa Misi gives us genuine pass rush. Cam Wake had a career year, what if he drops off? Joey Porter had a career year in 2008, dropped off something fierce in 2009. If that happens, does Koa Misi pick up the slack? I love Koa but I don't think he does.

A lot could go wrong but IMO if you get yourself a franchise QB that starts showing promise in your system...you place a BUFFER on yourselves...because as long as that guy looks good, and as long as YOU brought him in...you're a lot safer then you think.

Good points...i still believe that the phins had a good draft which can get better depending on how FA beeaks for us.....as for mallet, based on the fact that henne was benched twice lat year, odds are that he would see the field very early on if we got him...anf that not the best right now...for mallet or the phins

And if this fo whiffs in fa (no vet qb or change of pace back) then they are gone after this year anyway

 

[Spesh]

The thing you call value on the Thomas pick and defend CK on means you have not even studies Ck's universial draft guide where they have him projected to go round 2/3 as their 4th best RB in this draft which is exactly where we took him. Running back was a need period for the phins in this draft. Sure we can look in a crystal ball and say hey we can pick one just as good later but that is called gambling and when you have a need instead of a want then reasonably you do not do that. This draft looses value to me when we did not trade down in round 1 and gamble Pouncy would be their later and picked up that late 2nd rounder we used to trade up for Thomas. Only Ireland knows if he could not have traded down but his pattern in the past is that he does not do much of that and instead trades up a bit more than down which I personally do not like. He also IMO throws darts in the 7th round instead of the best productive player available IMO which is the way I would go.

I didn't tattoo all of Ck's work on my forehead. I never said i agreed with everything he has ever written(though im sure he will find that blasphemous). But its utterly insane to sit here and demand he change his mind based on the fact that Miami drafted him, all the while accusing him of being biased because of who we didn't draft.
And this is the second thread youve started quoting me while repeating "He's the best!". 2 points concerning value: 1) A quarterback or running back both have second round grades, who's value is higher? Explain to me how a franchise running back is worth more then a franchise quarterback. Because all the evidence i need is in the Wannstedt years after the Ricky Williams trade. How many rings do we have from the brilliant piece of work?

2) Quick! Name the best looking women ever!
You cant, because you cannot argue taste. Is Michael Turner one of the "best" running backs in the NFL? Yes. What would happen if we traded for him and asked him to return punts and catch passes out of the backfield. Would he still be considered the best in the nfl? No. Because his skill set does not match what would be asked of him.

And your right, we do not have a crystal ball saying "who will work and who wont" but we sure as hell have scouting reports and we supposedly have a draft plan that dictates what kind of players we draft. We use those scouting reports to figure out what fits into our plan. From there, we draw up the best players for our needs and the best value. By finding those players and matching the needs, you can "gamble" on it. And you can certainly "gamble" on some positions. Running back being one. Guard being another.

Teams around the NFL find pro-bowl quality running backs on practice squads and late in drafts. Its not called gambling. Its called doing your job. And it would be damn nice to have that around here.

 

[Mile High Fin]

BTW, patriots keep trading and doing not much with it. not impressed. our draft is much better and will have more impact. Iam with clayton on this one.

Mike Mayock after we took gates...." I like what miami is doing."

Exactly....
Miami has gotten very solid "grades" and nobody is busting on our choices...

I understand the disappointment in not taking Mallett.
Well, neither did the whole F***ING NFL 3 times over.....

 

[Spesh]

Exactly....
Miami has gotten very solid "grades" and nobody is busting on our choices...

I understand the disappointment in not taking Mallett.
Well, neither did the whole F***ING NFL 3 times over.....

Yeah! And the majority has never proven to be wrong!

Good thing we dont have a quarterback who all the NFL teams passed on once and most teams passed on twice!

 

[j-off-her-doll]

I think you touched on my sentiments pretty perfectly, when you said that D. Thomas will be a nice toy for Cowher.

The more I think about it, the more I don't want this regime ****ing with a QB, the more I don't want them here at all, and the happier I am with the draft.

Point blank: We picked up some great pieces. This was a bad draft for this FO, and as long as we don't mortgage our future for some bum QB, I think that's a good thing. You can pick up great players and still have a bad draft. Drafting isn't about picking up the bes values; it's about improving your team. If you added a franchise QB to this draft, it'd be pretty damn sweet. They didn't, so they failed.

For the next guys, though, this draft will pay dividends. I'm almost excited. Welcome to the cynical world of loving the Dolphins.

Great write up, CK. Agree with most of your points/grades.

 

[ONole1]

Yeah! And the majority has never proven to be wrong!

Good thing we dont have a quarterback who all the NFL teams passed on once and most teams passed on twice!

Ummmmmm, not for nothing but shouldn't that tell you something? I mean all these teams are wrong to have passed on him once or twice, but Miami should have taken him because he's a franchise QB...Now that's funny!!!!

 

[Chubby]

Exactly....
Miami has gotten very solid "grades" and nobody is busting on our choices...

I understand the disappointment in not taking Mallett.
Well, neither did the whole F***ING NFL 3 times over.....

And the NFL passed on Brady 6 times over.
IMO, they missed on a golden opportunity not moving up for Gabbertt or grabbing Mallet. Oh well we will know soon enough who was right.
Chubbs

 

[Mr. Magoo]

Draft grades are as flawed an enterprise as there is but I don't see why anyone would think that the players you could have gotten don't affect how you feel about the pick itself.

Think about this. If Andrew Luck had somehow been there at #15 -- and instead we took Mike Pouncey -- would anyone in this thread tell me that that wouldn't affect the way you felt about Pouncey? I mean, Mike Pouncey is a fine center. A potential All-Pro. But still... no one would care. Once you pass on Andrew Luck, that and nothing else is the story.

CK is sold on his evaluation of Mallett and Henne and I don't blame him for looking at this class and seeing a whole bunch of nothing. I mean, those players who were taken ahead of Marino, or Brady, or any of those franchise quarterbacks who fell... does it matter if you used one of your picks on a seven year starter at running back? No. That's not the story. You can have a terrible pick without the player being terrible, in other words. You're terrible by omission... like a 10 yard completion can be terrible because you passed up an easy touchdown.

I mean, we're faced with this situation every day as Dolfans. We passed on Aaron Rodgers for Ronnie Brown. Can anyone not look at Brown and see Rodgers? Because I can't. The Brown pick was a failure. Period.

For me, the only thing I'd say is that the evaluation of Ryan Mallett by most drafniks -- no matter how much research could be done on the internet or talking to a few people at Arkansas and Michigan -- was clearly incomplete. That's not meant as an insult to anyone or an accusation of derivation of duty, but I find it hard to take anything away from Ryan Mallett's slide but the fact that clearly there is a thing or things that a lot of very quarterback needy teams felt was just a bridge too far with him.

Maybe that's putting too much faith in NFL security personnel, I don't know. They have been wrong before. But I think we all know that more often than not they aren't.

I was not as high on Mallett as most of the people on this board. As I've said many times, even if he had a perfect character history he would not have been my top quarterback. But there's no sense in ripping CK or calling him a jilted lover or any of that. His reaction was entirely predictable and if I felt the same way about Mallett as he does I'd probably share it. I thought he was going to be the pick @ 62 but it was not as big a shock to me as when we passed on him @ 15. By the time he got to #62 the bloom was off the rose. It was obvious something was up.

The last thing I'd mention is that it's important to look at this draft differently than others in years past. Unlike most drafts, when the offseason is pretty much complete once the last pick is in, we're really only starting on this one. Lots of moves have yet to be made. A free agent running back is virtually assured to be picked up (or perhaps in the case of Ricky Williams, resigned), for one. Charles Clay is an intriguing pick but a more experienced receiving tight end would not be a shock. If a free agent fullback became available, I'd expect these guys to pounce. With Pouncey more than likely to play center, does anyone become available who can really play left guard, because I sure as hell don't like Incognito there.

True, the only opportunity to really lock down the quarterback spot lies shaky prospect of the acquisition of Carson Palmer. Anything else at this point is likely to be disappointing, and possibly season ruining. But even more than usual, I think it's important to look at this draft as just part of a larger, incomplete puzzle.

 

[Finfanforever]

I hope this draft turns out as well as Ireland and all the homies think...but the thought of having Ingram and Mallett in the same backfield in exchange for a center who can't snap a shotgun and a upright runner who has fumble problems is just sickening...even more sickening is despite all Ireland and Sparano did this weekend ...we still have Henne under center. Ireland basically said he wasn't concerned enough to address the QB position. OK...EVERYBODY (especially Ireland) needs to re-watch the last game of the season vs. New England...yeah...we don't need a QB! (PURE SARCASM) :titanic:

 

[ckparrothead]

The thing you call value on the Thomas pick and defend CK on means you have not even studies Ck's universial draft guide where they have him projected to go round 2/3 as their 4th best RB in this draft which is exactly where we took him. Running back was a need period for the phins in this draft. Sure we can look in a crystal ball and say hey we can pick one just as good later but that is called gambling and when you have a need instead of a want then reasonably you do not do that. This draft looses value to me when we did not trade down in round 1 and gamble Pouncy would be their later and picked up that late 2nd rounder we used to trade up for Thomas. Only Ireland knows if he could not have traded down but his pattern in the past is that he does not do much of that and instead trades up a bit more than down which I personally do not like. He also IMO throws darts in the 7th round instead of the best productive player available IMO which is the way I would go.

Those were Richard's rankings. As far as I know they were not the rankings from the three of us.

 

[phintim]

I didn't tattoo all of Ck's work on my forehead. I never said i agreed with everything he has ever written(though im sure he will find that blasphemous). But its utterly insane to sit here and demand he change his mind based on the fact that Miami drafted him, all the while accusing him of being biased because of who we didn't draft.
And this is the second thread youve started quoting me while repeating "He's the best!". 2 points concerning value: 1) A quarterback or running back both have second round grades, who's value is higher? Explain to me how a franchise running back is worth more then a franchise quarterback. Because all the evidence i need is in the Wannstedt years after the Ricky Williams trade. How many rings do we have from the brilliant piece of work?

2) Quick! Name the best looking women ever!
You cant, because you cannot argue taste. Is Michael Turner one of the "best" running backs in the NFL? Yes. What would happen if we traded for him and asked him to return punts and catch passes out of the backfield. Would he still be considered the best in the nfl? No. Because his skill set does not match what would be asked of him.

And your right, we do not have a crystal ball saying "who will work and who wont" but we sure as hell have scouting reports and we supposedly have a draft plan that dictates what kind of players we draft. We use those scouting reports to figure out what fits into our plan. From there, we draw up the best players for our needs and the best value. By finding those players and matching the needs, you can "gamble" on it. And you can certainly "gamble" on some positions. Running back being one. Guard being another.

Teams around the NFL find pro-bowl quality running backs on practice squads and late in drafts. Its not called gambling. Its called doing your job. And it would be damn nice to have that around here.

Who said you tatooed anything but his/ their draft guide showed Thomas was the best guy still there. As far as doing their job compared to what we have had around here he has been doing his maybe not up to your expectations but we have cetainly worse around here. Not arguing with you about coaching them up who can. THis draft was logical the way it turned out for me and I would have been surprised if they had drafted anyone but the QB from Missouri. Why shouldn't they want to save their jobs and given the current lockout, short leash they are on draft a QB that would certainly move them out the door. You and I may be big Dol fans but and look further down the road at our phins but for most fans only want wins now and a rookie QB this year with this lockout is not going to work, plus take in the fact that we have a new offensive coordinator, pourous offensive line and no running game and you are looking for disaster. As far as the argument of playing Henne this year and the rookie QB next year is just not going to wash. The pressure to play the kid QB and draft Henne is exactly what would happen and he would probably turn out to be another John Beck. Use that QB pick this year for your rookie QB next year. Anyway the Jets won a lot of games with a QB that could not throw the ball out of his own backfield for 3-4 games and our QB can at least do that.
What I am saying here I do not think Sporano had any choice but to go for it with these picks and remember he had a clause put in his contract this year where he had say in this draft.

 

[finforlife]

Well, Daniel Thomas is definitely going to get some production. Miami only has Lex Hilliard on roster and Daniel was the only tailback drafted. Productive means yards, he'll get yards. But will he be doing really well? I think he could do alright, but long term I believe there were better ways to go. Miami laid a net, strikes me as thin, strikes me as very risky. EVERYTHING has to break the right way from here on out...or they could be in big trouble. And for THIS regime, after the Harbaugh fiasco, and with guys like Carl Peterson and Bill Cowher hanging around the periphery...they need things to break right to prevent getting cleaned out. I almost think getting cleaned out was inevitable for them. But, I do think that a young franchise QB that plays early (a little, not talking Day 1) and shows PROMISE would have bought them time.

Ask yourself this...with Daniel Thomas being "the" guy...what if he is not that good?

What if we can't get Carson Palmer? Does it even MATTER if Daniel Thomas and Mike Pouncey are good, if we don't have a QB?

What if the Defense actually, god forbid, suffers a little reversion to the mean? Some people aren't very convinced on Sean Smith, some more people aren't very convinced that Koa Misi gives us genuine pass rush. Cam Wake had a career year, what if he drops off? Joey Porter had a career year in 2008, dropped off something fierce in 2009. If that happens, does Koa Misi pick up the slack? I love Koa but I don't think he does.

A lot could go wrong but IMO if you get yourself a franchise QB that starts showing promise in your system...you place a BUFFER on yourselves...because as long as that guy looks good, and as long as YOU brought him in...you're a lot safer then you think.

CK, I respect your opinion and all the hard work and research you do.

But I don't think many people, GMs especially, share your view that Mallett is indeed a franchise QB. Many teams with quarterback situations as bad or worse than ours (Washington, Arizona, Seattle) passed on this guy repeatedly.

I can't see into the future to know whether Mallett will turn out otherwise, but a lot of people don't think he's the answer and the only team willing to take that chance on him was one that had extra picks to work with.

His tools are too good for teams to ignore, so there must be something with the kid that just didn't click. GMs are willing to overlook a lot if the kid has a rocket for an arm, which Mallett does, but there must have been enough warning signs with the kid that scared people off.

 

[vinivedivichi]

I understand the grades and agree with the sentiment. I believe the point is not necessarily that Pouncey and Thomas aren't good players deserving of their respective draft choices, it's more of the overall decision that the FO made in terms of what positions to address and what players to target.

I believe Pouncey has the potential to be a great player, and for that reason I think we should be excited. However, not addressing the QB position in the first round essentially handcuffs us to Henne for another year. While I agree with Ireland that the board didn't really dictate us taking a QB in the first round, at tiimes you have to dictate the draft board if you don't like what it's giving you. Pouncey is a solid pick, but the pick represents us dodging/deferring our quarterback problem (and yes, we have a problem) yet another year. So make no mistake, when Henne implodes this year, the blame can be placed squarely at the feet of Ireland. I like Pouncey, but I'm not convinced that we should be picking up a center in the draft with the quarterback issues that we have.

The Thomas pick is a bit trickier, simply because I don't particularly know whether he will be a good player. Pouncey is safe - I'm 90% sure we got ourselves a good interior lineman who will start for us for 10 years. Not so sure about Thomas. He's got good vision and hits holes quickly, but I'm not thrilled about his lack of speed and although he's big he doesn't seem to play very big to me. He looks like a quicker, more instinctive, but less physical version of Ronnie Brown to me. While he could end up being a good player, I don't really understand what he gives us that Ronnie Brown doesn't. And assuming he is better than Ronnie Brown, which for now is a big assumption, it seems legitimate to question whether he's 'enough' better to warrant a second round draft pick when we could have just re-signed Ronnie. I honestly don't get this pick from a Miami Dolphins perspective. We drafted him about where he was expected to go, so not bad value, but I'm not sure it makes much sense for us considering our current situation.

And I haven't even mentioned the fact that Mallet was still on the board when we picked Thomas. If our scouts hated Mallet, I think you have to trust your scouts, but that is definitely not what we have been hearing. By most all accounts Mallet is probably the best passer in this draft, so it is quite frankly unacceptable for us to pass on his potential. You don't ignore the most important position in all of sports when you have the opportunity to get a player of Mallet's caliber on the cheap like this. Just unacceptable.

On a purely talent/player perspective, I think the fins get a B. Pouncey is a good bet to be a good player and Thomas, and I'll give the benefit of the doubt here, has as good a chance as any other second rounder to be a good player in the NFL. That said, from a Miami Dolphin perspective, these picks represent this front office sweeping a big pile of crap under the rug and pretending it's not there. But I know it's there. We have a glaring issue at quarterback and we had an opportunity to fix that issue and we didn't. Ireland will say that the board really didn't dictate us drafting a quarterback, and that is 100% true (at least in the first round), but the fact is that we were within striking distance of the 2nd - 4th QB's taken in this draft and we sat idle waiting for our pick. In the second round we opted to ignore the issue once again, which IMO is inexcusable with Mallet still on the board. Taking all of this into account, I think we get a D/D- for the first couple of picks.

So there you have it. We have a front office that has tied its fate to a quarterback who has underperformed for the last 6 or so years that he has been a starting quarterback. Kudos for perfecting the pieces around the quarterback, but unfortunately unless we get better quarterback play this team will never be much better than it was last year. Let's all hope Henne progresses this season, but remember if he doesn't that we did have chances to remedy the situation but we did not. I can give a pass to the FO for being blindsided by Henne's shortcomings last year, but this year that will not be the case so they better hope Henne doesn't let them down. I am pretty sure their jobs will depend on it.