I Hate Storms; CK's Updated Big Board

[fishypete]

When someone says a guy like Orr is a 4.3 guy, I assume he's a 4.4 guy until he shows me different. I expect Watkins to run the same time as Orr, or close to it...and I expect Nance to come close to those two. Either way, they are both all three very similar size/speed stories.

4.31 in the 40-yard dash…260-pound bench press…410-pound squat…275-pound power clean…38-inch vertical jump…33 7/8-inch arm length…9 5/8-inch hands…Right-handed… Wears contacts…22/27 Wonderlic score.

 

[ckparrothead]

4.31 in the 40-yard dash…260-pound bench press…410-pound squat…275-pound power clean…38-inch vertical jump…33 7/8-inch arm length…9 5/8-inch hands…Right-handed… Wears contacts…22/27 Wonderlic score.

That means about as much to me before the Combine as the rorschach test on a used piece of toilet paper.

 

[ckparrothead]

I'm not even sure why you bother to post something like that Pete, as if I didn't already know what your source says about Orr's timed speed.

I don't care what they say. I think it's bunk...until he proves otherwise at the Combine.

 

[fishypete]

I'm not even sure why you bother to post something like that Pete, as if I didn't already know what your source says about Orr's timed speed.

I don't care what they say. I think it's bunk...until he proves otherwise at the Combine.

CK...Did you miss the part I wrote about waiting until the combine...for all the players? I wouldn't say it's bunk...but I also choose to wait for the offical times...my guess is he'll run in the 4.3 area.

 

[ckparrothead]

CK...Did you miss the part I wrote about waiting until the combine...for all the players? I wouldn't say it's bunk...but I also choose to wait for the offical times...my guess is he'll run in the 4.3 area.

I'd be willing to wager a steak dinner that he doesn't crack 4.40

 

[Mile High Fin]

Crowder played like a 2nd/3rd rounder if you consider that guys like Shawne Merrimen, Derrick Johnson, Odell Thurman, and Lofa Tatupu all outplayed Channing and were drafted before Channing. On the other hand, nobody after Channing played better than Channing...unless you think Kirk Morrison played better (possible, he had a ton of tackles).

I know people keep trying to pretend that Channing was first round value that we got in the 3rd because of his knees, but that isn't actually the case. Guys like Thurman, Tatupu, Johnson, and Merriman all played better and are better players. Channing might have gone about 15 spaces later than he should have, due to the knees...but he wasn't worth a first even if healthy.

Sorry CK, but that's NOT the case. Channing was INDEED "first round value" that we got in the 3rd because of his knees. No "pretending" going on.

His talent/size/skills were 1st round calibur......his knees dropped him. Period.

Now, his ACTUAL 2005 NFL performance you could argue that he PLAYED like a 2nd rounder, but as of last April's draft, Crowder was regarded as bona fide 1st round talent......who dropped due to his knees.

There are NUMEROUS respected draft sites that say the same thing, but here's the positional rankings from nfldraftcountdown.com (I could many others):

2005 ILBs:
1. Channing Crowder Florida
2. Barrett Ruud Nebraska
3. Odell Thurman Georgia
4. Adam Seward U.N.L.V.
5. Alfred Fincher Connecticut
6. Kirk Morrison San Diego St.
7. Lance Mitchell Oklahoma
8. Robert McCune Louisville
9. Marcus Lawrence South Carolina
10. Leroy Hill Clemson
11. Lofa Tatupu USC
12. Mike Goolsby Notre Dame
13. James Kinney Missouri
14. Boomer Grigsby Illinois St.
15. Ronald Stanley Michigan St.
16. Jonathan Pollard Oregon St.
17. Liam Ezekiel Northeastern
18. Martin Patterson T.C.U.
19. David Bergeron, Stanford

2005 OLBs:
1. Derrick Johnson Texas
2. Kevin Burnett Tennessee
3. Darryl Blackstock Virginia
4. Matt McCoy San Diego St.
5. Ernest Shazor Michigan
6. Rian Wallace Temple
7. Ryan Claridge U.N.L.V.
8. Jordan Beck, Cal Poly
9. Michael Boley Southern Miss
10. Jonathan Welsh Wisconsin
11. Derek Wake Penn St.
12. Cornelius Wortham Alabama
13. Jared Newberry Stanford
14. Marques Harris Utah St.
15. Roger Cooper Montana St.
16. Zac Woodfin, U.A.B.
17. Derek Curry Notre Dame
18. Pat Thomas North Carolina St.
19. Jonathan Jackson, Oklahoma
20. Nick Speegle, New Mexico

FYI, Merriman is under the DEs.
Also, this list is based on talent only. Most sites predicted that Crowder, despite being a 1st round talent, would drop to 2nd or lower based on his knees.
VIRTUALLY EVERY DRAFT SITE SHOWED CROWDER RANKED #1 as ILB, and maybe #3 overall LB (behind only Merriman & Johnson).
For instance, (and there's others) this is from NFL.com:

As far as playing ability goes, Crowder is obviously the blue chip of the class, but his series of knee injuries will scare off a few teams. Crowder is blessed with incredible field awareness, outstanding speed and natural power, but durability issues will certainly come into play before a team makes a decision on whether to draft him. If someone can harness that energy and help him mature, he will be very productive at the next level. Still, with his speed and range, he might bring better value as a weakside linebacker than he can in the middle.


So I'm not pretending Channing was 1st round talent dropping to us in the 3rd because of his knees. That is in fact what happened.

Like I said, you can argue that he PLAYED worse than the other LBs you mention, but he was indeed considered a 1st round talent.....with bad knees........and that's why he dropped (and justifiably so).

 

[fishypete]

I'd be willing to wager a steak dinner that he doesn't crack 4.40

If I was a betting man I'd take you up on it....but you should remember the school and the players that played there....Simmons...4.31, Chambers...Notes: Has been clocked at 4.31 on a very fast surface and reported a vertical jump of 45 inches without cheating., Evans..4.39-4.41

As you can see they should check the water out in Wisconsin.

 

[fishypete]

Jets | New regime could have interest in a quarterback during NFL Draft
Thu, 9 Feb 2006 11:06:38 -0800
Rich Cimini, of the New York Daily News, reports while former New York Jets general manager Terry Bradway and former head coach Herman Edwards were opposed to using their fourth-overall selection in the upcoming NFL Draft on a quarterback, the team's new team of head coach Eric Mangini and general manager Mike Tannenbaum may have a different view. With there being major concerns over QB Chad Pennington (shoulder), the new regime may want to look for a long-term answer at the position. Pennington is recovering from shoulder surgery and will be asked to take a pay cut.

 

[ckparrothead]

Mile High I just flat out disagree with ya. Draft sites say one thing but that doesn't mean they get it right nor does it mean they get an accurate reflection of what scouts actually think.

And also note that not a single one of those ILBs got drafted in the first round. Channing Crowder, even if healthy, would have been no different. I think he was probably a good 2nd round value if healthy, but not first round. I think his play during games has actually proven my point.

 

[Agent51]

If I were writing my posts in Word, I would do that. But I'm writing the posts in the neat little window provided by FinHeaven.

Usually when I'm writing a long post I'll write it in notepad and then just copy paste, saving along the way, just so that doesn't happen to me (it has happened a few times before and it SUCKS, so I feel your pain).

That being said, great writeup, very informative and it gave me some insight into a few of the players I had questions about and wasn't that familiar with.

 

[CD13]

Pittsburgh traveled what? 6 games in a row? Didn't seem to stop them...lame excuse.

We'll have to agree to disagree.

And is Pitt the first #6 seed, or team that has travelled every week, to win the Super Bowl. I don't see that happening again for a long time. Pitt was fortunate in my opinion...Palmer goes out...Denver gets the Pats on their worse day (Pats would have beat Pitt in NE), Indy, well Pitt played great against them - anyway your point is made, but really it is not likely to happen that way often, and of course getting home field is the way to go. I don't Seattle making it without home field...

 

[BlueFin]

Mile High I just flat out disagree with ya. Draft sites say one thing but that doesn't mean they get it right nor does it mean they get an accurate reflection of what scouts actually think.

And also note that not a single one of those ILBs got drafted in the first round. Channing Crowder, even if healthy, would have been no different. I think he was probably a good 2nd round value if healthy, but not first round. I think his play during games has actually proven my point.

I think thats generally true for ILB, it seems that not too many go in the first round, just as not too many guards go in the top half of round one..

 

[BlueFin]

Sorry CK, but that's NOT the case. Channing was INDEED "first round value" that we got in the 3rd because of his knees. No "pretending" going on.

His talent/size/skills were 1st round calibur......his knees dropped him. Period.

Now, his ACTUAL 2005 NFL performance you could argue that he PLAYED like a 2nd rounder, but as of last April's draft, Crowder was regarded as bona fide 1st round talent......who dropped due to his knees.

There are NUMEROUS respected draft sites that say the same thing, but here's the positional rankings from nfldraftcountdown.com (I could many others):

2005 ILBs:
1. Channing Crowder Florida
2. Barrett Ruud Nebraska
3. Odell Thurman Georgia
4. Adam Seward U.N.L.V.
5. Alfred Fincher Connecticut
6. Kirk Morrison San Diego St.
7. Lance Mitchell Oklahoma
8. Robert McCune Louisville
9. Marcus Lawrence South Carolina
10. Leroy Hill Clemson
11. Lofa Tatupu USC
12. Mike Goolsby Notre Dame
13. James Kinney Missouri
14. Boomer Grigsby Illinois St.
15. Ronald Stanley Michigan St.
16. Jonathan Pollard Oregon St.
17. Liam Ezekiel Northeastern
18. Martin Patterson T.C.U.
19. David Bergeron, Stanford

2005 OLBs:
1. Derrick Johnson Texas
2. Kevin Burnett Tennessee
3. Darryl Blackstock Virginia
4. Matt McCoy San Diego St.
5. Ernest Shazor Michigan
6. Rian Wallace Temple
7. Ryan Claridge U.N.L.V.
8. Jordan Beck, Cal Poly
9. Michael Boley Southern Miss
10. Jonathan Welsh Wisconsin
11. Derek Wake Penn St.
12. Cornelius Wortham Alabama
13. Jared Newberry Stanford
14. Marques Harris Utah St.
15. Roger Cooper Montana St.
16. Zac Woodfin, U.A.B.
17. Derek Curry Notre Dame
18. Pat Thomas North Carolina St.
19. Jonathan Jackson, Oklahoma
20. Nick Speegle, New Mexico

FYI, Merriman is under the DEs.
Also, this list is based on talent only. Most sites predicted that Crowder, despite being a 1st round talent, would drop to 2nd or lower based on his knees.
VIRTUALLY EVERY DRAFT SITE SHOWED CROWDER RANKED #1 as ILB, and maybe #3 overall LB (behind only Merriman & Johnson).
For instance, (and there's others) this is from NFL.com:

As far as playing ability goes, Crowder is obviously the blue chip of the class, but his series of knee injuries will scare off a few teams. Crowder is blessed with incredible field awareness, outstanding speed and natural power, but durability issues will certainly come into play before a team makes a decision on whether to draft him. If someone can harness that energy and help him mature, he will be very productive at the next level. Still, with his speed and range, he might bring better value as a weakside linebacker than he can in the middle.


So I'm not pretending Channing was 1st round talent dropping to us in the 3rd because of his knees. That is in fact what happened.

Like I said, you can argue that he PLAYED worse than the other LBs you mention, but he was indeed considered a 1st round talent.....with bad knees........and that's why he dropped (and justifiably so).

I think its a little unfair to compare Channings performance against the other rookies in that I think he was the only one asked to play both inside and outside as Zach's health dictated, I believe all the other rookie linebackers in question were inserted into their positions and were allowed to learn and get comfortable in the same position all year, if I'm wrong please someone correct me.

 

[Pennington's Rocket Arm]

tatupu didn't even start till what....week 10?

 

[fishypete]

I think its a little unfair to compare Channings performance against the other rookies in that I think he was the only one asked to play both inside and outside as Zach's health dictated, I believe all the other rookie linebackers in question were inserted into their positions and were allowed to learn and get comfortable in the same position all year, if I'm wrong please someone correct me.

You are correct Sir.