Is Zo a hall of famer?

[nyjunc]

I think the reason you are getting this much feedback on your posts is that you keep making Plaintiff statements about ZO not being a HOFer.

You keep making these statements as if you are th guy that will vote on it. You make these statements like they are absolute fact..when they are clearly not.

Of course..you also say that Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas are not HOF worthy either....so let's just say that there is nothing wrong with the doubt some of us have about your "objectivity".

Your "team accomplishment" requirement for the HOF is rather ridiculous seeing as how many players are in without any rings or for that matter..never playing in a championship game or series.

he's not a HOFer, I can say that.

Taylor MAY have palyed his way in w/ winning DPOY this year, that is a huge award on his resume but he still was a leader of teams that choked in big games and never did a thing in postseason. zach is a very good player but he will fall short. How can you expect 2 HOFers froma Defense that always choked? and 2 HOFs from a team that never did a thing in the playoffs? Admit you are a homer and we can move along.

 

[Section126]

he's not a HOFer, I can say that.

Taylor MAY have palyed his way in w/ winning DPOY this year, that is a huge award on his resume but he still was a leader of teams that choked in big games and never did a thing in postseason. zach is a very good player but he will fall short. How can you expect 2 HOFers froma Defense that always choked? and 2 HOFs from a team that never did a thing in the playoffs? Admit you are a homer and we can move along.

How bout you admit that you are a Jets fan on a Dolphins forum bad mouthing Miami Athletes. And you call me a homer...

First of all..I already demonstrated in another thread..that they didn;t choke. How do you choke on Defense in the NFL anyway?

 

[nyjunc]

How bout you admit that you are a Jets fan on a Dolphins forum bad mouthing Miami Athletes. And you call me a homer...

First of all..I already demonstrated in another thread..that they didn;t choke. How do you choke on Defense in the NFL anyway?

How do you choke on defense? 33 PPG in 5 playoff losses froma D that was supposedly top 5. Sure there were a few defensive Tds so the # is a lillte lower but not much. They still gave their offenses little chance to win and knowing they didn't have great offenses mean they had to setep up like bal '00 but they couldn't do it.

I am objective though unlike yourself, I don't even hate the Heat bt obviously I hate the Dolphins and Zo BUT if I thought they had these HOF players I would say so. The '85 bears have only 2 HOFers on D and you expect 2 players from this Miami D to make the HOF?

 

[Enforcerfin33]

How do you choke on defense? 33 PPG in 5 playoff losses froma D that was supposedly top 5. Sure there were a few defensive Tds so the # is a lillte lower but not much. They still gave their offenses little chance to win and knowing they didn't have great offenses mean they had to setep up like bal '00 but they couldn't do it.

I am objective though unlike yourself, I don't even hate the Heat bt obviously I hate the Dolphins and Zo BUT if I thought they had these HOF players I would say so. The '85 bears have only 2 HOFers on D and you expect 2 players from this Miami D to make the HOF?

Its harder to get into the HOF as an NFL player, and if Zo was still playing for your precious Nets which, he still wouldn't have a ring, and he would be miserable, you would be saying, "Man Zo is the equivalent of Marino in the NBA, he's been a great player but he didn't get his ring". But he scre#ed over the Nets so you down play his career. Its apparent that any thoughts on this matter you have are clouded by hatred. Let it go my friend, hate is such a bad color on ya.

 

[nyjunc]

[/B]
Its harder to get into the HOF as an NFL player, and if Zo was still playing for your precious Nets which, he still wouldn't have a ring, and he would be miserable, you would be saying, "Man Zo is the equivalent of Marino in the NBA, he's been a great player but he didn't get his ring". But he scre#ed over the Nets so you down play his career. Its apparent that any thoughts on this matter you have are clouded by hatred. Let it go my friend, hate is such a bad color on ya.

if jhe played for the nets I still wouldn't consider him a HOFer. Carter comes from my favorite College team and plays for my favorite Pro team and I do not believe he is a HOFer.

he didn't screw the Nets, the nets got carter out of the deal so it was a 1 sided slam dunk for the Nets but he screwed the Nets and raptors out of alot of money especially after no team other than the Nets was willing to give him the type of deal he signed w/ NJ.

The guy was the leader of very talented college teams that never made a FF and only made 1 Regional Final AND became the first 1 seed to ever come close to losing to a 16 seed where Princeton had the ball w/ the cahcne to win on the final possession, he was the leader of top seeded pro teams and never made the Finals- b/c he rode the coattails of Shaq and wade doesn't make him a HOFer. Mourning was a good player, never great, and will not be a HOFer.

 

[Section126]

How do you choke on defense? 33 PPG in 5 playoff losses froma D that was supposedly top 5. Sure there were a few defensive Tds so the # is a lillte lower but not much. They still gave their offenses little chance to win and knowing they didn't have great offenses mean they had to setep up like bal '00 but they couldn't do it.

I am objective though unlike yourself, I don't even hate the Heat bt obviously I hate the Dolphins and Zo BUT if I thought they had these HOF players I would say so. The '85 bears have only 2 HOFers on D and you expect 2 players from this Miami D to make the HOF?

I am very objective.

It is apparant that you are not. Then you pass on this Vince isn't a HOFer crap to make you seem objective. Vince puts up these type of numbers for 6 to 8 more years..and he is a lock. Call it the Nique rule.

As for your "choking" argument. It is pretty bad. You mention the losses. You don't mention the wins. That ppg stat is scewed by one game..the Jax game. The others..I pointed out in another thread how many defensive touchdowns the fins had go against them. Why don't you post the ppg for the Dolphins offense in all those losses? My guess is that you don't because it pretty much makes your argument laughable.

One key to great defenses that win super bowls..is that they all had great running games to protect them. The fins never had that except once. That year the Defense carried them through against a top 5 offense(The colts), and kept them int he game int he 2nd round against the Raiders...while the offense threw pick sixes.

I posted the individual stats for all the playoff games, yet you brought that crap back up in here.

As for the Bears...yeah..they have 2 HOFers...so what? So because that defense won a superbowl..the 2 Dolphin guys can't get in? What kind of logic is that? Do you have any idea how many players are in the hall without ever winning anything?

 

[nyjunc]

It is apparant that you are not. Then you pass on this Vince isn't a HOFer crap to make you seem objective. Vince puts up these type of numbers for 6 to 8 more years..and he is a lock. Call it the Nique rule.

Vince hasn't even seen a conf Finals and after he leaves NJ he'll already be on his 3rd team.

As for your "choking" argument. It is pretty bad. You mention the losses. You don't mention the wins.

What wins? beating Buf at home in the WC game? beating Indy at home in the WC game? beating Seattle in the WC? yep thoe are HOF type wins.

Why don't you post the ppg for the Dolphins offense in all those losses? My guess is that you don't because it pretty much makes your argument laughable.

Sure there's a few defensive TDs but the D did not keep their O in the games knowing they had a mediocre O. baltimore had a truly great defense, one that carried a team to the SB. Miami's supposed big time D could never even compete in the divisional round.

One key to great defenses that win super bowls..is that they all had great running games to protect them. The fins never had that except once. That year the Defense carried them through against a top 5 offense(The colts), and kept them int he game int he 2nd round against the Raiders...while the offense threw pick sixes.

In 2000 jamal lewis average 2.8 YPC and gained 47 yds against tennessee yet bal beat them at tennessee in the div rd. lewis averaged 2.7 in the tile game yet they won at oakland(a week after you got crushed at Oak).

The pats never leading rusher in 2003 when they won their 2nd SB was Antowain Smith w/ 642 yds on 3.5 YPC.

Michael Pittman in 2002 led TB w/ 718 yds on 3.5 YPC yet TB's D carried them to a title.

You are just making excuses.

As for the Bears...yeah..they have 2 HOFers...so what? So because that defense won a superbowl..the 2 Dolphin guys can't get in? What kind of logic is that? Do you have any idea how many players are in the hall without ever winning anything?

That was the greatest single season D in NFL history and a great D for many years but they only gte 2 HOFers while Maimi's D gives up 33/gm and they get 2 HOFers? I am not sure your Championship teams have 2 HOF Defensive players on that team. take off the aqua glasses and look at it logically.

 

[UCFinfan86]

Playing in championships isn't everything, ableit its alot. Unlike football 1 or 2 great players on D can't make your team a championship team, Football is a team game, unlike basketball where one player came make a team championship contender

You guys need to just end. Nyj is a hater and isn't changing his mind, and section is prolly bias(although i agree with him on both parts), but neither of you guys are going to change each others minds, you already have your mind set.

EDIT: Btw Nyj your bears D theory is flawed. So they are the best ever which means no other D can have more then 2 HOFers cuz they only have 2? Well how many Players are in the HOF from the 72 Dolphins? Because then one team should never have more then them since they are the best team of all time

 

[FINdestructible]

Yes, he deserves to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Anyone who says he doesn't, has not watched Zo's NBA career.

 

[Section126]

Vince hasn't even seen a conf Finals and after he leaves NJ he'll already be on his 3rd team.

So what? He was and is good..numbers get him in. Ask Nique.

What wins? beating Buf at home in the WC game? beating Indy at home in the WC game? beating Seattle in the WC? yep thoe are HOF type wins.

I gotcha...wins don't count. Losses do though. because they help your argument.

Sure there's a few defensive TDs but the D did not keep their O in the games knowing they had a mediocre O. baltimore had a truly great defense, one that carried a team to the SB. Miami's supposed big time D could never even compete in the divisional round.

I explained to you why already, stop acting like I haven't.

In 2000 jamal lewis average 2.8 YPC and gained 47 yds against tennessee yet bal beat them at tennessee in the div rd. lewis averaged 2.7 in the tile game yet they won at oakland(a week after you got crushed at Oak).

That was an all-time great defensive performance. That ravens defense had 1 HOFer. Kinda blows your argument out of the water. Maybe Football is a team sport?

The pats never leading rusher in 2003 when they won their 2nd SB was Antowain Smith w/ 642 yds on 3.5 YPC.

Two words...Tom brady. the Dolphins didn;t have Tom Brady. They had a diminished Dan Marino and Jay Friggin Fiedler.

Michael Pittman in 2002 led TB w/ 718 yds on 3.5 YPC yet TB's D carried them to a title.

That along with pretty good offensive performances int he playoffs. Check the turnovers. Your offense doesn;t turn it over..you are fine. The Fins offenses on the other hand...turned it over alot.

You are just making excuses.

You like to fit stats to your argument. Instead of actually using them in their entirety.

That was the greatest single season D in NFL history and a great D for many years but they only gte 2 HOFers while Maimi's D gives up 33/gm and they get 2 HOFers? I am not sure your Championship teams have 2 HOF Defensive players on that team. take off the aqua glasses and look at it logically.

I am looking it at it logically. What the hell does Playoff success have to do with the HOF? Look at how many players are in the HOF that never played in a super bowl. That ends your argument. A team accomplishment doesn't "GIVE" you HOFers. Then the Dolphins would have more than 1 HOFer from their defense in the 70's.

The HOF is an individual award. Individual accomplishment is what gets you in. The HOF has nothing to do with playoff accomplishments. That's like arguing that Bruce Smith doesn't deserve to be in because his defenses choked in the Super Bowl. How bout Barry Sanders, OJ Simpson, Eric Dickerson, Dan Fouts, Dick Butkus, etc...etc...come on..

That argument is ridiculous.

You are reaching for reasons to keep them out.

 

[nyjunc]

Playing in championships isn't everything, ableit its alot. Unlike football 1 or 2 great players on D can't make your team a championship team, Football is a team game, unlike basketball where one player came make a team championship contender

you had highly ranked Defenses w/ 2 supposed great players. That is mroe than most D's can ask for and every year they folded in big spots.

EDIT: Btw Nyj your bears D theory is flawed. So they are the best ever which means no other D can have more then 2 HOFers cuz they only have 2? Well how many Players are in the HOF from the 72 Dolphins? Because then one team should never have more then them since they are the best team of all time

The '72 Phins aren't the best team of all time, they have the best record of all-time and were a great team but are not the best.

Yes, he deserves to be inducted into the Hall of Fame. Anyone who says he doesn't, has not watched Zo's NBA career.

Well that settles it, now I know. Thanks for setting me straight.

So what? He was and is good..numbers get him in. Ask Nique.

Nique was a great player, he didn't win b/c he had great teams in ront of him. There aren't the great teams in front of VC the way they were in front of Dominique.

Dominique was SEVEN all-NBA teams, VC has only been on 2. He's not catching him, his play is already declining- he's not a HOFer though I hope he makes it.

I gotcha...wins don't count. Losses do though. because they help your argument.

is a div playoff game bigger than a WC playoff game? Obviosuly it is and the div rd counts more than the WC rd.

That was an all-time great defensive performance. That ravens defense had 1 HOFer. Kinda blows your argument out of the water. Maybe Football is a team sport?

It strengthens it, if that Bal D only gets 1 HOfer how can a choking Miami D get 2?

Two words...Tom brady. the Dolphins didn;t have Tom Brady. They had a diminished Dan Marino and Jay Friggin Fiedler.

Now it's the QB. First it was the RB- which is it?

That along with pretty good offensive performances int he playoffs. Check the turnovers. Your offense doesn;t turn it over..you are fine. The Fins offenses on the other hand...turned it over alot.

In the div rd against SF, Pittman averaged 2.4 YPC, Alstott 3.5. TB turned it over twice.

In the Championship Game at Philly Alstott had 25 yds on 17 carries(1.7 YPC), pittman had 17 yds on 8 carries(2.1). TB had 1 turnover.

the only game they had a ground game was in the SB but according to you D's can't win unless their O has a good ground game or is it that they have a top QB or is it that they don't turn it over? TB didn't have a ground game, didn't have a top QB and turned it over- how did that D play so well?

I am looking it at it logically. What the hell does Playoff success have to do with the HOF? Look at how many players are in the HOF that never played in a super bowl.

When guys are marginal candidates you need playoff success, that doesn't mean you need 3 SB wins but you need to get past the div rd at least once.

The HOF is an individual award. Individual accomplishment is what gets you in. The HOF has nothing to do with playoff accomplishments. That's like arguing that Bruce Smith doesn't deserve to be in because his defenses choked in the Super Bowl.

bruce Smith was on a team that won 4 Conf titles and in 3 of the 4 SB's his team faced teams that were vastly superior to his.

How bout Barry Sanders, OJ Simpson, Eric Dickerson, Dan Fouts, Dick Butkus, etc...etc...come on..

barry got to a conf title game, Dickerson got to a conf title game, butkus was a player who changed the game, OJ had 4 rushing titles.

 

[FINdestructible]

Well that settles it, now I know. Thanks for setting me straight.

Who in the world said i was trying to set you straight? I could give a rats behind what you think, it is a free country afterall. I was only posting my opinion. :D

 

[Section126]

you had highly ranked Defenses w/ 2 supposed great players. That is mroe than most D's can ask for and every year they folded in big spots.

Supposed great players? "Supposed?" So no they are overrated? WOW. This is really going somewhere real fast. As in you have never left the meadowlands in your entire life type of territory.

The '72 Phins aren't the best team of all time, they have the best record of all-time and were a great team but are not the best.

Undefeated, #1 offense, #1 defense, yeah..they aren;t the best of all-time..let me guess the 69 Jets were better.

Nique was a great player, he didn't win b/c he had great teams in ront of him. There aren't the great teams in front of VC the way they were in front of Dominique.

Numbers are numbers..and I still believe that Vince has one re-birth in him. Maybe with the Spurs...the Mavs..who knows...He is hardly getting help lately with the Nets commitment to never build a front line. Please..no Nenad Krystic crap...please.

Dominique was SEVEN all-NBA teams, VC has only been on 2. He's not catching him, his play is already declining- he's not a HOFer though I hope he makes it.

Nique played SF. Vince plays in an era with dominant SG's..for that matter...Apples and Oranges to compare awards at two different positions.

is a div playoff game bigger than a WC playoff game? Obviosuly it is and the div rd counts more than the WC rd.

Again...team accomplishments mean nothing, when discussing the merits of an individual.

It strengthens it, if that Bal D only gets 1 HOfer how can a choking Miami D get 2?

The Miami D wasn;t a choking D. I already demonstrated that in another thread. Again..the 72 Dolphins had 1 HOF. The 1990's Cowboy D's ranked in the top 3 ...4 times...they won 3 superbowls. THEY HAVE ZERO HOFers on that D. I can blow that argument out of the water over and over again if you want.

Now it's the QB. First it was the RB- which is it?

it's the offense. it has always been the offense. Don't act as if you didn't know that. A crappy offense is not good for a defense.

In the div rd against SF, Pittman averaged 2.4 YPC, Alstott 3.5. TB turned it over twice.

In the Championship Game at Philly Alstott had 25 yds on 17 carries(1.7 YPC), pittman had 17 yds on 8 carries(2.1). TB had 1 turnover.

the only game they had a ground game was in the SB but according to you D's can't win unless their O has a good ground game or is it that they have a top QB or is it that they don't turn it over? TB didn't have a ground game, didn't have a top QB and turned it over- how did that D play so well?

Great...I give you almost 100 years of NFL history, you come up with one example. Fabulous research.

When guys are marginal candidates you need playoff success, that doesn't mean you need 3 SB wins but you need to get past the div rd at least once.

So now the threshold is the Div Round. Let me guess...if Zach and JT made it past the div round..the threshold would be the Championship round? Ask OJ Simpson how many playoff games he played in.

bruce Smith was on a team that won 4 Conf titles and in 3 of the 4 SB's his team faced teams that were vastly superior to his.

I can fill this thread with examples of hall of famers that had less success than Zach and JT in the playoffs. Don't act as if Bruce is the only example.

barry got to a conf title game, Dickerson got to a conf title game, butkus was a player who changed the game, OJ had 4 rushing titles

Barry and Eric were non-existant in their title game appearances. OJ had 4 rushing titles? So for him...stats are okay...but for Zach and JT they are not?

Make up your mind.

Again..I suggest that you look up how many HOFers had less postseason success than Zach and JT.

Now..so you can make everybody here happy...I BEG YOU...PLEASE say that ZACH and JT ...."Will never win a superbowl"...



BTW...we are having this conversation as if Zach and JT retired yesterday. They haven't. They got a few years left to pad their resume's.

 

[Enforcerfin33]

EVERYBODY SING WITH ME!!! This is the thread that never ends..it just goes on and on my friend......section makes a point ,and then junc puts it down,then it just goes back and forth, who the heck is Oliver North?..
This is the thread that never end.........repeat, and rinse.

 

[Section126]

EVERYBODY SING WITH ME!!! This is the thread that never ends..it just goes on and on my friend......section makes a point ,and then junc puts it down,then it just goes back and forth, who the heck is Oliver North?..
This is the thread that never end.........repeat, and rinse.

You aren't allowed to post in this thread because you haven't taken your team to a championship game.