DKphin
Club Member
Here is a video, but it does not give any stats:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/newsenglishnews/jackson-state-holds-its-pro-day/vp-BByEFjj
J-Off's Board V1
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- 2017 draft big board draft
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/newsenglishnews/jackson-state-holds-its-pro-day/vp-BByEFjj
Whoops! What happens when you start responding before coffee x_x I like Braden, too, Chambers. Will post some on him later, but Slimm's Senior OL thread has some of my thoughts on him, and CK goes into much greater detail than I did. He's my 4th OG.
I love Bowser and agree that he'd excel in a role similar to Collins. I'd just say that I'd want him rushing off the edge more than Collins has to this point. Seems like a waste to not utilize his that aspect of his game - particularly since it's such a valuable one. But, he'd also be a great match up piece against TE's on base downs. There's just a LOT to like.
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Thanks DK! I've only been able to find a tweet (from @ChrisShanafelt), saying that he ran as low as 4.54 and as high as 4.70 (pretty huge range). Would have finished behind only Ben Gedeon on bench (26 for Jancy) and posted a 32" vert and a 9'3 broad. Those are pretty poor jump marks, but it doesn't bother me too much for a stand-up LB.
JOff, what are your thoughts about Michigan DL Chris Wormley? Tony Pauline is reporting Miami has serious interest in his "Services"; goes on to add, Wormley is expected to be selected in the early part of round # 2, but also says, he feels like Wormley, is a 1st round talent. This would be one hell of a surprise if Miami selects Wormley over Charlton @ #22.
Great timing! I actually just updated these a few minutes ago, moving Wormley into the 2nd. I think he's a borderline 1st and a better prospect than Charlton, because I think he'll do damage inside. At 297 (26lbs heavier than Chalrton), he ran in the same range (low 4.8's), and he put up a 7.08 3-cone (.09 better than Chalrton's Combine 3-cone). Wormley reminds me of Cameron Heyward, and I think he's an ideal 5-tech. I've gone back and forth from 1st to 2nd RD for Wormley since early in the 2016 season. For Miami, I would have to imagine that they view him as a BIG base DE, who would kick inside on passing downs. At 22, they could do better, but they could also do a lot worse.
I can see why they'd like him. Strong at the POA and stout against the run. He'd definitely help improve Miami's run defense along the edge.
That's probably the train of thought, agreed. I still think he's of most value to 3-4 and 4-3 Under D's.
I'm with you there. Miami needs some juice coming off the edge. We'll see who is available, but if they passed on Willis, Watt, or Bowser for Charlton or Wormley, it'd sting.
I don't believe I asked you. You think Watt can play DE in a 4-3? I thought he was pegged as a 3-4 OLB
Have you looked at Dylan Cole? Miami has apparently
https://www.google.com/amp/s/phinph...iami-dolphins-draft-day-steal-dylan-cole/amp/
https://www.google.com/amp/s/phinph...iami-dolphins-draft-day-steal-dylan-cole/amp/
I think he can. His frame looks like he could carry 260-265, but I think he'll be most dynamic, and most valuable as a LB. His length for an OLB is very good. His length for a DE is slightly below average. Not the end of the world, but it's something to consider. While he shows good strength and burst, his agility is his defining trait, so as he develops, he should play very well in space. Playing LB would also match him up with TE's from time to time, and he should dominate those match ups. Ultimately, you're drafting him high, because he can get after the QB, so on 95%+ on pass downs, I want him rushing off the edge. On base downs, I think his tools and versatility project best to LB. Again, Miami doesn't have the ideal D to utilize his strengths, but some teams think he can play ILB, and he should still make a lot of plays as a SLB in a 4-3 Over.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Yeah I'm not in any way trying to say the Combine forms the basis of the grade. I'm purely attacking this idea that when a guy goes to the Combine and/or his pro day and scientifically measures out some things you thought you had evaluated based on the film, and the scientific results don't match your evaluation of those specific properties, you take the excuse of "that's not what is on the tape".
There are circumstances surrounding the Combine. Lord knows. These guys are put through the ringer and some of them just don't wake up feeling fresh and bouncy because of it. The cybex measurements they do before all the run/jump stuff often kill their legs. They go to the pro day and jump higher, farther, run faster, etc. So you've also got to keep that in mind. And you've also got to keep in mind that exercises like the 20 yard shuttle and L-drill are kind of esoteric in nature, and so if you've not trained thoroughly or properly for them, you can get a bad result. To some extent, that can also be true of the 40 yard dash, particularly the track start.
There are measures that hold more information than others. A lot of people went nuts when Leonard Fournette did so poorly on the vertical. They don't realize that there is a very long and very established history of very, very good running backs who couldn't hurdle a smurf when it comes to a standing vertical. It's such a thing that I've almost been conditioned to look for highly rated RB prospects with BAD verticals as a potential screening mechanism.
The ten yard split would be extremely valuable if it didn't have so much noise from whomever is operating the equipment, as well as unstandardized track start techniques. Just have the player's react to a gun, like any self-respecting track and field event would. Laser-time their hips to get the splits.
The shuttle and cone, like I said, are so esoteric. At this point I don't even consider them a negative indicator, just a positive one. If a guy runs one or both of them really well, it's a plus. I don't do a negative for it. I don't need to. I feel like I can get a sense for their functional agility on the field.
As for the Combine being important as you say I agree. The teams don't bring like dozens of personnel each because it's stupid.
Absolutely, I definitely know that you don't grade by Combine/Pro Day performance alone. I've been reading your draft takes for close to 10 years now (time flies). And, I think we're on the same page. It's also a good point that players often test better in the jumps at their Pro Days. Pro Day 40 and agility times require some skepticism if there's a large discrepancy between either the Combine or the tape, but it should be hard to fudge the jumps.
Christine Michael is an excellent example of freak athlete, who isn't a very good RB. It's very rare for Edge players to show that standard of physical tools and then fail in the NFL. For RB's it's unsurprising. It's interesting that Alex Collins is basically the inverse of Michael - elite feel for the game, limited athleticism.
There are two specific scenarios where I'll really knock someone for poor agility scores: 1. An Edge that doesn't test well in the jumps (need to see either or to draft one high); 2. A CB who is light (<190). I completely agree that the drills that require practice to do well. I have to imagine (could be wrong) that most of the potential 1st-3rd RD picks are practicing, though. Either way, 90%+ of the time, I agree that it's something to use as a positive rather than a negative.
Terrific insights, CK. Much appreciated.
In addition to his height (6'3) and length (33" arms), Ahkello Witherspoon moves really well. His burst is apparent, but his balance and poise are underrated. He plays like a CB who trusts his tools. He's not perfect, but when you have his combination of length and burst, with no real weaknesses (he's not a straight-line athlete), and you trust it, you're poised to play well in the NFL.
He never loses position on John Ross here. Later in the play, Tedric Thompson comes over and interferes with Ross, but Witherspoon stays in his hip. Ross, of course, ran a 4.22 40, and in case we forget how quick/explosive he is, this is Ross hurting Adoree Jackson's feelings:
Adoree Jackson is a very nice prospect, with high-level quickness. He may have let his guard down a bit on this play, but it's still impressive to see Ross work him like this. The play resulted, of course, in a TD. It makes Witherspoon's ability to stay with Ross even more impressive.
I really don't see this skill set lasting until the 2nd Round. Because he moves so well, he's not tied to teams that typically prioritize that kind of length (Seattle, Carolina, Cincinnati, Minnesota, Miami, etc.), but those teams will still love him. He needs to up his aggression and technique as a tackler (this is the key issue for him), and though he broke up 19 passes in 2016, there are times when he doesn't get his head around as quickly as you'd like. This is something that can be improved, and his instincts look good. Improvement in this area would also increase his INT total. His long arms, big hands, and plus coordination should lead to more INT's in the NFL.
These are the spider charts for Ahkello Witherspoon and Richard Sherman (Witherspoon's closest physical comp, according to the site).
Witherspoon is much further along than Sherman was, but he doesn't appear to have the dog in him that Sherman did/does. Still, Witherspoon's upside is clear. His floor will be tied to his tackling. I don't see him as a soft player, outside of tackling, so with technique work, and considering his athletic talent, once football is his full-time job, I think he'll tackle with more confidence and willingness. Seattle typically waits on CB's, but with teams biting their style, I could see them loving Witherspoon (Kevin King is another they probably like a lot).
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/ahkello-witherspoon
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/richard-sherman
He never loses position on John Ross here. Later in the play, Tedric Thompson comes over and interferes with Ross, but Witherspoon stays in his hip. Ross, of course, ran a 4.22 40, and in case we forget how quick/explosive he is, this is Ross hurting Adoree Jackson's feelings:
Adoree Jackson is a very nice prospect, with high-level quickness. He may have let his guard down a bit on this play, but it's still impressive to see Ross work him like this. The play resulted, of course, in a TD. It makes Witherspoon's ability to stay with Ross even more impressive.
I really don't see this skill set lasting until the 2nd Round. Because he moves so well, he's not tied to teams that typically prioritize that kind of length (Seattle, Carolina, Cincinnati, Minnesota, Miami, etc.), but those teams will still love him. He needs to up his aggression and technique as a tackler (this is the key issue for him), and though he broke up 19 passes in 2016, there are times when he doesn't get his head around as quickly as you'd like. This is something that can be improved, and his instincts look good. Improvement in this area would also increase his INT total. His long arms, big hands, and plus coordination should lead to more INT's in the NFL.
These are the spider charts for Ahkello Witherspoon and Richard Sherman (Witherspoon's closest physical comp, according to the site).
Witherspoon is much further along than Sherman was, but he doesn't appear to have the dog in him that Sherman did/does. Still, Witherspoon's upside is clear. His floor will be tied to his tackling. I don't see him as a soft player, outside of tackling, so with technique work, and considering his athletic talent, once football is his full-time job, I think he'll tackle with more confidence and willingness. Seattle typically waits on CB's, but with teams biting their style, I could see them loving Witherspoon (Kevin King is another they probably like a lot).
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/ahkello-witherspoon
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/richard-sherman