Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by Daytona Fin, Jun 25, 2014.
I agree he has potential I just don't agree he has the potential that the third overall pick should have in the draft.
Get. Over it already. What's done is done. At the very least wait until he is an official bust to piss and moan about where he was picked.
Well damn, I sure as hell hope there's potential in Jordan.
---------- Post added at 10:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:08 PM ----------
I'm sure you'd find a way to complain about winning the lottery.
I'm happy to see Taylor wanting to help get guys like Jordan get up to his potential!
The 2013 draft class got a lot of flak as being "awful" or a "waste". Now it appears the team might be getting a lot of help this season from that class. A lot of good things being said this offseason about Jordan, Taylor and Thomas.
Thomas and Taylor might be starters and Jordan figures to be part of a killer three man rotation at defensive end. Plus throw in Sturgis and the class might not be all that bad.
Some people just like to piss in the cereal. Must be miserable to be like that
Eh.... it's all relative.
3rd pick in last years draft would of been a late first in this years draft.
Many experts have already stated last years draft was BEYOND thin with elite prospects.
Jordan being one of maybe 5.
So the Fins jumped up and got a elite prospect instead of sitting back and getting a average player with their first round pick.
You left out Jelani Jenkins who has impressed early this year as well.
I see Jordan much like Taylor did...of course you want instant gratification from a 3rd overall pick that cost you two premium picks.
There were legitimate setbacks he suffered and yet he still made a gamewinning play as I recall and flashed lots of potential.
If he blossoms this year no one will remember last year or care.
But then again, how much difference in value was there between being taken third by us and 4th by Chip Kelly, the coach who knew him best who was sitting there certain of the pick - until blindsided by Ireland's kamikaze leapfrog in front of him. Obviously from overtures made recently, Chip still hasn't gotten over having Jordan snatched out of his hands.
Dolphins draft a player.....'OMG that guy is a bust, terrible pick, didn't even contribute year 1."
Patriots draft a player...."OMG, Billicheat is a genius, let him develop for year 1 and the guy will be a beast! GENIUS!!!!!!!! (FAP FAP FAP FAP)."
Sounds familiar? :chuckle:
Don't ask how but I had the opportunity to talk to jason for about an hour and I actually asked him about dion Jordan. He said how he is basically a freak athlete but doesn't know what he's doing yet. He immediately goes into talking Olivier Vernon and said now that guy is a player. Anyway thought it was interesting how he jumped on Vernon when I asked him about Jordan(he's a huge Vernon fan). He also said he liked the move of misi inside and said all of our linebackers were out of position last year. Really cool talking to jt about our current roster.
Noone knows who Kelly was going to take that's just speculation. Now would he like to add a good prospect of course but he had a chance to trade up one spot. Don't tell me that Kelly didn't know Oakland was trading the pick and the possibility of Dion Jordan being taken third. I mean if Kelly thought Jordan was so awesome Im sure he would feel that another team might.
Oakland traded the pick to the team that gave up the most. I don't negate that Kelly would like Jordan on his team but its not like he made some unbelievable offer to aquire him from us and wouldn't even trade a third to move up one spot and get him that year. We don't know what would have happened if Jordan had been there at 4, we don't know what would have happened if Johnson and Jordan were there at 4. We do know that Oakland floated that pick in trade for best offer and Kelly says he wasn't willing to give up a third round pick to move up and ensure that they get him, that's about all we know.
Later, reporters questioned Kelly if he had intended to take his former player at 4. Chip's response indicated that it was a possibility:
"Trust me, [Dion Jordan], we considered him heavily," [...] "We didn't get a chance to pull the trigger on that one."
When asked about why the Eagles didn't move up 1 spot to take Jordan, Chip talked about the potential sacrifice that type of move would require:
"When you start to get getting emotionally involved, and I was very conscious of that, then what do you have to do to move up? [...] If you move up to get him, then that means you don't get Bennie Logan because you don't have a third-round pick or you don't get Matt Barkley because you don't have a fourth-round pick. It's the accumulation of putting the whole team together. It's saying, 'What are you willing to sacrifice to get one player?'"
By these indications, the Eagles valued Jordan highly to some extent but he clearly wasn't a "must-have" player. If he really was, they would have traded up a spot. They absolutely had the resources to do so. But ultimately they didn't want to.
Maybe it was because they didn't actually value Jordan as highly as some thought. Peter King recently wrote in his MMQB:
[...] I'm told the Eagles weren't going to choose Jordan fourth overall.
It's an interesting tidbit but I'm not sure how true it is. Unless Chip was just posturing about his former player, why would Chip lie about his interest in Jordan? Or maybe King's source was posturing in the Eagles favor, making it seem like the team didn't miss out on a guy they truly wanted?
Either way, we don't really know for sure and it doesn't really matter. Dion Jordan is a Dolphin and the Eagles got their guy in Lane Johnson. The OT was a sensible pick too so it wasn't like "missing out" on Jordan threw a wrench in the Eagles plans. If anything, assuming King's report is true, it shows the Eagles valued Lane Johnson more. That's an even better endorsement of the pick.
Also not sure because socalledly Kelly knowing Jordan best means much since he had a chance to take Kiko Alonso and passed . You would have thought he would know him best also
Yet, 2 years after the fact (rumored) Chip is still sending out love letters like a desperate Ex-gf trying to get Jordan back?
After seeing Sturgis last year I'm not so sure he's an nfl kicker. He looked scared and nervous since the ravens game.
Noone ever said he didn't like him as player. But the most they offered was a second round pick and Brandon friggin Graham. This is hardly proof he wanted to take him number four overall.
he didn't even offer his late first round pick for a guy you claim he is that infatuatiate with.
It's funny that you of all posters jump to certain conclusions as probable fact yet when conveniently the antithesis of your entrenched agenda, play the "we don't really know what would have happened" card even when all empirical evidence points to Kelly sitting there like everyone else, surprised out of his gourd that anyone would trade up in front of him for Jordan who was a top 10 pick on most boards to begin with. Johnson was a nice consolation pick but that's what he was. Again, the coach who knew Jordan best and still pines for the one that got away most likely valued him as a 4th .. so now you have at least 2 teams putting him in the top 5. Beyond that there was scuttlebut that the jets were ready to take him at 8 (I believe that was their first pick). Bottom line, whether you agree or not, he was appraised by many as a top 10 pick, so live with it.
Regardless of whether or not Chip was going to take Dion 4th overall doesn't change the fact that he was, across virtually all big boards, a top 5-10 candidate. Are you saying that a player who would've easily been "worth it" at 5-8, was not at 3? That's a tough argument to make....in addition, you earlier referenced to his "potential" not being worthy a #3 pick....it's pretty difficult to accurately project someone's ceiling when they're so raw coming into a new position after a should injury playing limited snaps....everyone has a right to their opinion, but I think it's a little too premature to be so negative. IMO.
I have no agenda that's still your stupid buzz word . You are damn sure stretching the very definition of the term empirical evidence, more like empirical opinion. It was well known that the Raiders were looking to move that pick and get back their second round pick.
In fact this was just before the draft As the first round of the NFL Draft approaches Thursday, speculation is mounting about what the Raiders will do at No. 3 — trade the pick, or keep it?
Michael Silver of Yahoo! Sports reports that the Raiders and Browns may be in discussions to work out a trade involving Oakland’s selection.
on April 15
The 2013 NFL Draft isn’t considered particularly strong in the first round and is tabbed as a second round draft for the best value.
According to Peter King of SI.com, the Oakland Raiders are looking to trade down from the number three spot. General manager Reggie McKenzie has been very prudent in free agency as he tries to balance the salary cap.
Gaining extra draft picks helps the Raiders stock their roster with cheap talent and start the process of developing their team through the draft. King writes:
‘If Raiders general manager Reggie McKenzie gets his way, though, he won't be picking in the top five. The Raiders want to trade down to recoup the second-round pick that was sent to the Cincinnati Bengals in the Carson Palmer trade.’
From CBS sportsline
I continue to hear the Oakland Raiders want to move from the third slot in the draft ... I’m told the Raiders are unlikely to draft Shariff Floyd, even if they can’t move down from the third slot. As one source close to the situation told me earlier today, "the mock draft community is overrating Shariff Floyd." Word is the Tennessee Titans at 10 look like a good fit.
Oakland shopped the pick and the best they could get was what we offered so Kelly knew damn well that pick was being shopped. Lets not act like anybody was surprised that the Raiders moved down. Your opinion is no more valid than anyone else on who the Eagles wanted to take.
I never said that Jordan was not rated as a top 10 pick in that draft I said he wasn't worth moving up for because after pick 2, picks 3 through 15 there wasn't a lot separating them as players. I wouldn't have drafted Jordan at 12 with the players that were left on the board esp with him being a bad fit for our defense.
I have no choice to live with the bad picks my team has made. Kelly could have had him by giving up a pick so obviously he didn't think as much of him as u do. In fact he didn't even offer a 1st round pick for him this year. For the Eagles its smart business to trade a late 1st round pick for a player that has played for the coach .
Lets not act like Kelly backed up the brinks truck to aquire him from us.
The Browns select sixth overall, so it isn’t much of a drop for the Raiders if nothing intrigues them when they are on the clock.
The Raiders have also been linked to possible trades with Detroit, Arizona, and Miami.
None of this is evidence but neither is anything that you stated.
It does show that there was a lot of reports that Oakland was shopping the pick.
How is it premature to not like a pick. I mean do u automatically like every pick we take or do you have an actual opinion on players drafted.
I mean we do get to see draft picks play in college before we draft them.
Last time JT talked about someone like this he turned out to be Cameron Wake!!!
I didn't like Jordan at 12 for us.
And there's probably a few people who thought Cam Wake wouldn't turn into anything special either. :lol:
Plenty of people thought John beck was going to be awesome same with Ted Ginn.
Im sure Jets fans were quite happy when they drafted Vernon Ghoulston.
Thomas and Taylor!!! Seeing those names together bring back some fond memories....
well at least you have conviction with your opinion. I myself am tempered with expectations for Dion because we are 100% playing him out of his natural position. I just hope he can at the very least put together some consistent pressure/sack production.
Yea two great players , two of the best dolphin players ever.
Unfortunately both of those players are huge question marks
---------- Post added at 11:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:00 AM ----------
I don't disagree he is out of position, I don't think he is some unbelievable prospect based on watching him in college but as a 3-4 linebacker he is a much better prospect
That's good to know. I'm sure those same people eventually moved on and didn't keep harping on where those players were drafted.
I never get why people get so butthurt on a differing opinion. I don't begrudge anybody that likes Jordan as a prospect for us. My issue is the idiots that wont let someone have an opinion without some asinine comment about some make believe agenda. yes if you believe I have an anti dolphin agenda you are an illinformed
If I wasn't a dolphin fan I would have the guts to say so. Im am quite critical of the dolphins and I feel I have every right to be. Wasn't implying you were acting that way if you must know. Im just trying to figure out how a fan of a team that has not had a winning season in half a decade and not much success in last decade doesn't have the right to be critical of his team and the people running it. If Im not mistaken I have supported Tannehill from day one and have never wavered while others cannot make up their mind , one day he is top 10 the next he is bust.
---------- Post added at 11:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:09 AM ----------
Moved on to what. What has happened to make my opinion change.
When is the last time you heard of someone trying to trade for a guy 9 months after he was drafted? It's pretty obvious Chip wanted Dion Jordan then and now
im pretty sure he likes dion as a player. just not enough to move up and take him. or make us a better offer.
We will never know for sure what was offered, lol. Just the fact that they offered something immediately after his rookie season shows all I need to know
I mean seriously Im sure the dolphins wouldn't mind getting Lane Johnson for our second this year and Danial Thomas doesn't really mean anything more than getting a good prospect for a second round pick and a bust.
now when Philly starts offering a first round pick plus another high pick u might have me convinced.
hell I will give Buffalo that same offer for Kiki Alonso and Im sure they will laugh just as we did.
Im still not convinced that Jordan will not end up an eagle. Im not convinced they are going to give up the house to get him.
I think the Eagles believed the Dolphins didn't know what they had in Dion Jordan and tried to lowball. That's why they moved quickly after a disappointing rookie season. They knew it would be their best(and possibly only) chance to steal him away.
1. Un-proven rookie
2. Coming off a injury season
3. Playing 'out' of position
4. Idiot GM
5. Then new GM
6. Vernon improved drastically (log jam at DE....maybe Jordan gets little to no snaps)
Wonder why Chip and the Eagles sent out low ball offers.
Actually you're right, no one can be sure.. but with the obvious need for LTs coming off the board first, and Austin being billed as the next game-breaker, IMO it's pretty safe to say that: a)Chip would have grabbed Jordan at #4 and b)was surprised he was taken before Fisher and Austin, to name 2 of the other consensus top 10 picks which Jordan was.
Of course we can't be certain and will never know but frankly I'm even more confident that this was the scenario that occurred than you were that Brandon Gibson, who in '`12 led all receivers in 3rd down and TD conversion percentage was a worthless pickup because a bozo HC with 6 winning seasons in 18+years, including 2 in the last 9 and zero in the last 4 collaborating with an OC with 2 + * winning seasons out of 8 didn't make a strenuous effort to retain him.
But regardless, Jordan was a top 10 pick still greatly coveted by the coach who knew him best. And that;'s not speculation!
Yea that's why I stated everyone has a right to their opinion...the people getting upset about you feeling one way about jordan are hypocritical when they tell you to "get over it" and "stop complaining"....everyone is entitled to feel a certain way about a player and voice it on...wait for it...a forum lol. I just like to challenge people on the basis of their opinion the same way I expect to be challenged if I say something against the grain....no hard feelings at all I just like to pick at you because I know you'll respond and justify your line of thinking.
In all due respect to JT, he said some of the some on Misi as a pass rusher in the past.
yea maybe I'm just an optimistic guy, and to be honest I don't watch a lot of "tape" on these kids before we draft em. I'd say it's premature because he hasn't had a lot of opportunity to contribute yet. you can speculate as to whether or not that was due to injury or lack of ability, but regardless you haven't seen much of him in a dolphins uniform. considering we just discussed his transition to a new position...his college performance won't be 100% representative of what he'll be doing here....call me crazy but yea most often I don't dislike picks until I get the chance to see them on the field
yea because not liking a draft pick is exactly the same.
Im sure u had no opinion at all when we drafted pat white
How dare anyone criticize a team that hasn't won crap in years
---------- Post added at 06:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:53 PM ----------
they could have offered their first round pick if they wanted him that bad.
so dlockz, how do you invision Jordan's career ending, as far as what kind of player he ended up being? You see any probowls or do you just see a bust?
So please tell me who predicts how every free agen and draft pick turns out with 100 percent or even 50 percent accuracy. I mean u bring up Brandon Gibson but I was spot on with ellerbee and wheeler.
I mean Im sure u don't bring up to people that were proclaiming him Ellerbeast that their opinion is somehow less valid. There were plenty of rumors that the Eagles wanted Lane Johnson. I don't claim to know. I do know that Oakland floated that pick and Jordan was rated by most as a top 10 pick so they knew a team could grab him.
Gibson played well but lets not act like the rest of the NFL who are paid to do this thought he was some awesome free agent. Gibson went on the market looking for 6 million a year and the most any team offered was 3 million a year. I never once said Gibson was a worthless pickup, I felt there were better pickups. Hell we had a GM with 1 winning season in 5 years that signed him so how is that any different. I also never disagree that Chip Kelly would like Jordan on his team. Almost any team that runs a 3-4 would be happy to have him on the team. Throwing second round picks to aquire him does not imply though that he is a must have player for them. If Kelly keeps his jobI feel Jordan will be an Eagle by next season but he wont be giving up a high first rounder to get him that's for sure.
I have never once said Jordan is a bust, I just think he will be a solid NFL player. He is not in a defense that suits his skills. I don't think he is the next coming of JT or even close.
As for pro bowls you can never say. Its a popularity contest. Pouncey didn't deserve it last year but he was named. I think he will be a solid pass rusher, but always be weak against the run.
I think he is a guy that will stay out of trouble, I don't see him as ever being one of the leagues best but in a 3-4 he might ascend to that type of player. Just because I don't like where a guy was picked or think he fits the defense doesn't mean he is worthless.
When you are talking third pick in the draft I think that guy should become one of the best in the league. I did not like giving up a second round pick in last years draft to draft a guy that was basically the same talent as a guy I could take at 12.
I said last year that after the top two picks picks 3 - about 15 are so close in talent its not worth moving up and I stand by that.
I don't see the career of Jordan being distinctly more successful than Jarvis Jones, Mingo or Answah.
Star will be among the best at his position no doubt.
I have to say I respect that question unlike all the butthurt feelings and personal attacks one gets because you disagree. I just don't get why people have such an issue with differing opinions.
I don't go back and tell posters personally that you said Ginn was going to be unstoppable or that you said Beck was a better prospect than MAtt Ryan.
This post is all about Dion Jordan and our opinions on him. I mean is Jawan James a bad pick because the same coach liked Johnathon Martin?
everyone liked the injury excuse yet we played him on special teams so I don't totally buy into the injury excuse.
Now I do accept that he was limited in the offseason and could have showed up stronger and can get better.
When wake got hurt they played him a lot that game, maybe the most all year. The end result was the next week Shelby started over him. So they didn't trust him to start a week after he played a lot.
A lot of rookies struggle but with Jordan if he gets one sack that's all some people tend to see and yet ignore the other 10 plays he is in on.
Also nothing wrong with being optimistic. I think we went dumpster diving with our GM and got like our 5th choice but Im taking a wait and see before I start trashing him.
I didn't like his draft and some free agents were questionable. I have spoke out on these but I will form an opinion over time.
Of course. When they say the Powerball is $100 million what they mean is that it is $100 million if you take it over 20 years at $5 million a year as an annuity. If you take it all as a lump sum you only get about half the advertised amount and then the freaking government takes about 35% of it. So your $100 million is actually worth much less than $50 million.
Chip Kelly wanted Jordan. Opinions may differ, but I'm sold that he wanted him, was going to take him at 4, and continues to want him. Sure, start the negotiations low ... but the Eagles started them.
They thought we were trading up to get Lane Johnson ... the last of the 3 marquee players at our position of need, and the very best fit for our scheme. It also filled a glaring hole and would be building around our young franchise QB. It made a lot of sense!
The Eagles weren't fooled. We were fools. We failed to make the right moves and our season imploded and the guy who pulled the trigger, Ireland, was canned.
Dion Jordan is a long term excellent prospect. But he was RAW. With his shoulder he didn't get the time he needed with the coaches to refine his game. He was woefully undersized and had to learn a new position. All he could be last year was a situational pass rusher and special teamer. That's not surprising.
I think he will become a very good player. But, it will take time.
Glad to hear that JT thinks Olivier Vernon has the potential to play like Cam Wake.
a 2nd round pick and a player is a farly high initial offer