Letting Bush walk: Doesn't mean we need to acquire another RB, smart business move

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by dannysc305, Jan 31, 2013.

  1. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    Some of you guys are going to have to come to grips with the fact the we are not going re-sign Reggie Bush. Ireland spent a 2nd and a 4th on Daniel and Lamar while Reggie was here, and moved up both times to do so. He's going to want to see those picks pay dividends. We're going to save a good chunk of money letting Reggie walk, and I have absolutely no problem with it. We can use that money on some big strong lineman that can open up lanes for our homegrown Miami product Lamar Miller, who's been here all of his life. Born and raised in Miami, went to Miami Killian Senior High School, University of Miami, and now the Miami Dolphins. He worked very hard to get where he is and the Dolphins are going to give the hometown guy an opportunity. If Lamar gets the carries Reggie got or more, he can give you Reggie's production. I'm telling you guys, Lamar Miller runs with decisiveness and can hit a hole. Watch what he did at the U. All he ever did was rip off long gains. He takes the handoff, finds the hole, cuts into it with amazing burst and acceleration, and once he's at the 2nd level he's gone with 4.37 speed. He average a good YPG last year while he was used sparingly and was still trying to get acclimated with the speed of the NFL game. Now that he has some experience he's ready to take over.

    Just cause Reggie is leaving doesn't mean we need to draft or sign another back. We already have 2 competent runningbacks on our roster that know how to hit holes going north and south and can consistently gain positive yardage on every run, instead of dancing in the backfield every down. I'd rather have a back that can give me 5 yards on each carry instead of a back whose 5 carries go for gains of 0,1,1,1,0, and then the occasional 10+ yard run. I feel you guys are really downplaying what Miller brings to the table, he is everything reggie is, and probably better. Just as fast or faster, just as strong or stronger, shifty, elusive, without the durability and carrying concerns. Reminds me of LeSean McCoy. Starting Miller, and then having the rumbling,bumbling,stumbling...hopefully no longer fumbling...big tough bruising downhill runner in Daniel Thomas to spell him...is a great 1-2 punch for a great price. Talk about getting a bang for your buck.

    Philbin's system doesn't require that expensive feature back people think it does. We are going to make the transition to a pass first offense this season once we get Ryan Tannehill some legitimate targets. If you remember, Philbin wanted to do that last year, but then he said he wasn't naive to the fact that the team wasn't built type of offense at the time and he made the adjustment to make us more of a running/playaction team to fit the roster better. We already have good backs that we moved up in the draft for, we're going to save money, and we're going to use it on more important things like a pass rusher, DB, recieving target whether it be WR or TE, an OL, something. But definitely not a runningback. That's all, folks.
     
  2. CANDolphan

    CANDolphan Seasoned Veteran

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    So let's see... not only does Philbin's offense not require the #1 back (and apparently a #1 WR, or a #1 TE, or a #1 QB... what other excuses are we going to hear from that?) but you're sitting there trying to sell me on Daniel Thomas.

    Mr Fumbles
    Mr Injury
    Mr Upright running.

    Okay yeah you've sold me, I'm entirely comfortable with a guy who has NEVER proven healthy at the NFL level
     
  3. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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  4. psfign

    psfign A True Fan

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    I feel like we've all came to this same conclusion a while back. Thanks for the reminder....i guess.
     
  5. Asicswrg85

    Asicswrg85 A True Fan

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    Dont forget Jonas Gray too. I think this guy will be a factor in the years to come. Miller needs to improve his blocking significantly because in our offense, how well you block is equally as important.
     
  6. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    Actually I'm trying to sell Lamar Miller. Mr Fumbles Injury Upright Running will continue to be a back up, a role that fits him quite nicely.

    About Philbin offense, yeah it doesn't really need a feature back, a AP, CJ2K, MJD, Foster tyoe of back. A cheap, talented, serviceable Lamar Miller will do just fine in this system. Philbins offense won a SB with who at RB? Exactly. We aren't going to be a running team anyways, so it's not that serious.
     
  7. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I'm pretty sure the Dolphins will look at acquiring a significant tailback either in free agency or in the Draft.

    In fact I know that they're investigating some high caliber ones.
     
  8. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    Really? Then why do I still se everybody clamoring to resign Reggie? Some people sound like there's no hope at RB if we don't re-sign Bush, and we're gonna have to sign/draft one. Reason why I made this thread.
     
  9. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    That would be dumb. They really don't need to. They used a 5th and a 7th to move up for Thomas, and two 6ths to move up for Miller. Jesus Christ, how much more are they going to invest into RBs? With all the positions this roster needs I don't see us wasting anything of value on another back, I don't care if you're some kind of insider or not.
     
  10. AFCMiamiEast

    AFCMiamiEast A True Fan

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    Amen. Great post OP.
     
  11. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    Christine Michael would be an obvious possibility coming out of Texas A&M. He found himself in Kevin Sumlin's doghouse, but Mike Sherman and staff seemed to love him.

    But keep an eye on Mike Goodson in free agency. Another Texas A&M tailback that Sherman coached. He's got some nice looking plays in the NFL.
     
  12. DzakkH13

    DzakkH13 Winning is a Habit Donator

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    Daniel Thomas is good as a pass blocker on passing downs, but he is not a very good running back with the ball in his hands.

    He can't lower his pad level enough and is 'soft' in terms of rushes between the tackles. He has limited vision in his runs and should be replaced.

    Look for Miami to let Bush go and roll into TC with Miller, Thomas, Gray, Thigpen and maybe a rookie and/or a veteran bruiser back.

    Peyton Hillis is a Free Agent and could fill in nicely in Thomas' role.
     
  13. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    First off, investing a low 2nd round pick and a high 4th round pick in the RB position is not exactly overkill.

    Second, it doesn't matter because Daniel Thomas is a bust. You don't get yardage awarded to you by the referees on Sunday because he was drafted high. When the referees call the ball down short of the goal line you don't get to throw the challenge flag and point out that you paid an extra 5th and 7th for Thomas so we should be awarded that touchdown.
     
  14. jd13

    jd13 Starter

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    What has Daniel Thomas done in this League? Not a damn thing. He's always injured and fumbles a lot. I have no faith in him. And for that matter, what has Lamar Miller done. Reggie Bush is a proven commodity, Thomas and Miller aren't.
     
  15. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks bro, I truly appreciate it!
     
  16. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    Smh. It is overkill. It's not just a 2 and a 4. Its a 5,7,6,6,2,4. 6 draft spots invested into 2 players. You're not going to want that to go to waste. In a league where guys like Victor Cruz and Arian Foster go undrafted, those are valuable picks.

    I like how you just write Daniel Thomas off like that though. As if his past gives you any indication of his future. As if being injury and fumble prone your first few years defines him as a player and there's no chance he can turn it around. People were saying the same thing about Reggie Bush, and look at him now. Even CJ Spiller. Like its out of question to think he can actually stay healthy a full year and not fumble as much. Like he can't turn around his career. Since you know he's a bust and can't be any good for us next year and can see in the future I'd definately like to borrow your crystal ball. Daniel can give you some production spelling Miller, and in the red zone. I think he brings good value to the table long as he's healthy. He'll be a 2nd string back in a passing offense, we're not asking too much of him. Smh. Know it all media type.
     
  17. PhishyPhishy

    PhishyPhishy Well-Known Member

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    So if/when Miller blows out his knee in preseason your gonna be comfortable watching Daniel Thomas come trotting onto the field? I know I am not.

    I am one who thinks letting Bush walk is a mistake. Not only is he a proven producer who we should have utilized more but I am also 100% sure he will be a Jet if he is not with us. Now just to keep him off a rivals roster is no reason to resign a player, but when that player is a consistent thousand yard rusher for us who can catch balls like a wide out and is a leader in the locker room, its different and him ending up on a rivals roster will hurt this team.

    That being said, I agree that we are not going to resign Bush. It scares me because I just picture the turn stile we had at running back all those years Dan was here and how much that hindered that teams potential. The more logical thing to me would be to resign Bush for a few years and then if Miller proves he can be that number 1 back, whether its this year or next, we trade bush for picks. We may not get a lot but we will get something because he is Reggie Bush and can be plugged into any system and produce. You think Green Bay wouldn't be interested in his services as the final piece to a super bowl run? I dunno maybe I am crazy but that's my thinking here. We shouldn't make a strength a weakness when we don't have many strengths to begin with. I know people are gonna bring up money and yes if he wants some ridiculous contract then send him packing but I am working under the assumption that his contract will be reasonable.

    On to your statement that we don't even need to bring in another back when we let Bush walk. That is an even bigger mistake as I reference the picture I painted at the beginning of this post. This Draft has a lot of talent that will be available late at the RB position. I am a big Montee Ball fan and think he is gonna be a great back in this league for years. Of course who we get will all depend on who falls but I don't see us leaving this draft without a RB at some point, unless of course we resign Bush.
     
  18. NY8123

    NY8123 Sophisticated Redneck Administrator Finheaven VIP

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    I'd love me some Lacey with one of those seconds if he happens to be there.
     
  19. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    Give em opportunities to prove themselves gosh things can change you know. WHAT HAS LAMAR MILLER DONE? Idk bro you tell me, what did you expect him to do while he was on the bench? He only got 51 carries this year? You want 500 yards out of that? He gave you 250 for 4.9 per carry while flashing some serious potential. When he actually gets carries he gives you 10 for 65 for 6.5 ypc vs oak 9 for 48 5.3 ypc vs nyj and 10 for 73 7.3 ypc vs buf. And everybody knows backs need carries to produce, they need to get in a rhythm, they get better as the game goes on as the defense fatigues. Miller hasnt got that yet.

    ---------- Post added at 03:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:23 PM ----------

    SMH a 2nd on another back wow bro. To each his own I guess. I just hope Jeff Ireland doesn't think the way some of you do.
     
  20. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I meant not getting a back to start. I agree to get one for depth. But as far as depth I think Marcus Thigpen can get in there and play a little RB. Like really man RBs go on trees its not that serious. Look at the Patriots. Woodhead? Ridley? Vereen? Who are those guys? But they produce.
     
  21. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    All I'm going to say is Lamar Miller will take the league by storm a la CJ spiller and whether you believe it or not is your decision everyones entitled to their own opinion but I know what I'm talking about.
     
  22. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    First off, your accounting is shoddy. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too by talking about the 2nd round pick we gave up for Daniel Thomas AND talking about the 5th and 7th that we used to move up from the 3rd round for him. It's either a late-2nd, or a 3rd, 5th and 7th. Pick one or the other, otherwise your argument is not to be taken seriously.

    Second, it doesn't really matter what picks went into trading up for the picks where they were taken. The values match up. They spent a low-2nd pick and high-4th round pick's worth of value on the RB position. If you wanted to you could have probably traded the Michael Egnew pick for a 4th, 5th and two 6th round picks. Does that mean we used 4 picks on the tight end position? No. We used a mid-3rd.

    I'm writing off Daniel Thomas because two years into the league he's still averaging only 3.5 yards per carry. For a short yardage and goal line guy he's not very effective at either of those things. By the end of Reggie Bush's second year he might have only been averaging 3.8 yards per carry but at least he caught 161 balls for 1159 yards and had scored 15 touchdowns. Daniel Thomas is averaging 3.5 yards per carry, has only caught 27 balls, and has only scored 5 touchdowns. While fumbling the ball 5 times. As for C.J. Spiller, the comparison isn't even close. Or at least, not by a rational person. By the end of his second season Spiller was averaging 4.7 yards per carry, had 63 catches for 426 yards and had scored 8 touchdowns. He had also shown tremendous progress from his 1st season to his 2nd season, which Thomas did not.

    But I see. Everyone who disagrees with you is a "know it all media type". Nice. Keep living in your own little world, man.

    ---------- Post added at 03:37 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 PM ----------

    Then you should represent yourself better than you are currently doing.
     
  23. Cleetus

    Cleetus Well-Known Member

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    This kind of thinking is what got us in deep water with the state of our recieving corps. Ireland and a lot of you overestimated the quality of the talent presently on the roster.
     
  24. Twitches Brew

    Twitches Brew A True Fan

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    Combined 2012 stats from your proposed 1-2 Miller-Thomas punch:
    142 carries for 575 yds, 4.0per. 200 yds rec. 5 total TDs. That's not 'competent'.

    Neither of them are good options to have on the field on 3rd downs, short yardage, or on the goalline. Like you said, Miller is the same player he was in college: runs soft inside, cannot pass-protect, and has little feel for the receiving game. Now, I think he'll improve, but you cannot go into the season with a young QB and a generally crappy offense with the running game in the hands of mediocre Daniel Thomas and a guy who wasn't good enough to get more than 50 carries the year prior. That's just an irresponsible, misguided roster...oh and it lacks depth too, while we're at it.

    Aren't we always talking about what Alfred Morris, Frank Gore, and Marshawn Lynch do for their young QBs?
     
  25. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    I agree with you but mostly because of Daniel Thomas. I think Lamar Miller would be fine as your primary tailback on 1st & 10, 2nd & 10, etc. I think if you were to finagle a Mike Goodson out of Oakland then he could rotate into the picture on those downs and be your 3rd down guy. Then you could try Jonas Gray out in more of your short yardage and power situations.
     
  26. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    Not everyone who disagrees with me is a know it all media type. Just a specific shot at you. I get a sense of an over inflated ego coming from you just cause you have a little reputation on this board and write for a couple no name sources and have been a guest on the NFL Network before. Daniel Thomas is a back up and he's capable of doing what we are going to ask him to, simple as that. No need to dive into metrics and over analyze the situation.

    I blame our abysmal O-line play for Thomas's failure. Its tough to be the downhill runner he is when there's no place to go downhill. It is imperative that the line gives him some kind of crease to run through because he's not the type to bounce it outside when it's not there he's the type to put his head down and burrow through there to scrape off whatever yardage he gets. That's what I believe his low YPC is attributed to. Injury and fumbling is his own problem, I'm not naive to that, though.
     
  27. TealAttack13

    TealAttack13 A True Fan

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    Yeah, while I agree that moving up to get those other guys indicates a chance that the team will get them serious looks, you need to roll with a RB who could replace Reggie's production. I don't think those other two can get it done. If you want to move forward, you need to get someone in there who can get it done.
     
  28. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    That's actually pretty good production from those guys. They don't even start. They don't get carries. They don't get into a rhythm. They get 4 yards per carry. That is absolutely competent. Anything under that is incompetent.

    Miller runs soft inside? Don't think so. Finds the hole. Hits it with authority. He's not going to trample anyone, but he's not soft. He'll take the contact. Reggie's soft. He shies away from contact.

    Can not pass protect? So what? Why not? Says who? Don't care.

    Little feel for receiving game? Don't know what you're taking about, flares, screens, and little short routes out of the backfield aren't that hard to catch. Tanny will put them on him. Never heard of Miller having issues with drops. Can't run routes? Doesn't really matter. Not in his job description. He can catch a short pass and make people miss. You probably haven't seen it yet. But he could do it. Its not that hard.

    Mediocre running game in the hands of Daniel Thomas? NO. Lamar Miller.

    A guy not good enough to get more than 50 carries? I don't know, you tell me how many carries a 3rd string back in his first year is supposed to get. It's not a matter of talent. He's plenty good enough. Just a matter of there's a guy taking up all the carries and play time by the name of uhhh I don't know? REGGIE BUSH

    Morris Gore Lynch- All start for run first offenses.
     
  29. ckparrothead

    ckparrothead Premium Member

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    LOL. Right. Because I disagree with you. The primary difference between me as someone who disagrees with you and you don't take pot shots at, is just all the stuff you stated. Other people disagree with you just as strongly and in fact way more disrespectfully, but because I've got 4000 twitter followers I'm a "know it all media type".

    Who needs facts or evidence, when you've got an opinion?

    Offensive line didn't stop Reggie Bush or Lamar Miller from running for high YPC.
     
  30. Finland

    Finland Pro Bowler

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    Funny I agree with your thought. Enough of this magic Philbin system that does not need #1 backs and #1 receivers. Give me a break. I guess we are mincing words now. OK lets get some playmakers instead!
     
  31. TealAttack13

    TealAttack13 A True Fan

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    Good point. Reggie is pretty solid and can probably make plays no matter where he is, but it's a good argument.
     
  32. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    God I hope Miller and Thomas do their thing next year and prove all their doubters wrong and when they do I'm calling CK the fake journalist out
     
  33. MexDolfan

    MexDolfan Seasoned Veteran

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    Hey dannysc305 I simply don't get it.
    Daniel Thomas and Lamar Miller are great guys, I have nothing against them, but stats show none of them will equal Reggie Bush.

    [TABLE="class: grid, width: 800, align: center"]

    [TD="align: center"]PLAYER NAME[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]ATT[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]YRD[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]AVG[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]FD[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]TD[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]REC[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]YRD[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]AVG[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]FD[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]TD[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]LF[/TD]

    Reggie Bush
    [TD="align: center"]227[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]986[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.3[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]43[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]6[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]35 / 52[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]292[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]8.3[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]14[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2[/TD]

    Daniel Thomas
    [TD="align: center"]91[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]325[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]91[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]15[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]15 / 22[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]156[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]10.4[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]5[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]2[/TD]

    Lamar Miller
    [TD="align: center"]51[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]250[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4.9[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]12[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]1[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]3 / 8[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]45[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]7.5[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]4[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
    [TD="align: center"]0[/TD]
    [/TABLE]

    Reggie was used as all purpose player, he was RB, TE & WR.

    Also both Thomas and Miller have questionable durability. Thomas was KO a pair of times in the season and Miller had a list of knee issues on college.

    In case they opt to move out of Reggie, I'll give the benefit of the doubt to Ireland and crew, but in that case they'll need to have another plan based on drafting or adquiring another RB.
     
  34. dannysc305

    dannysc305 Well-Known Member

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    That's the past. Those are numbers from past production. No telling what they can produce in the future. I'm a fan, I stick by my team and faithfully root for them to succeed. And I believe they can and will, regardless of what they've done in the past. Reggie Bush is overrated and it's not pie-the-sky to replace his production. Players do improve, you know. Especially young ones.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 31, 2013
  35. finfan54

    finfan54 A True Fan Donator

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    I agree with this. I believe we will draft a RB and give Thomas competition. He needs some inspiration and become a work out warrior if he wants to take it to the next level. Bringing another guy in can help in that regard. Then you trade him if he doesnt for a 7th rounder or something.

    People have to remember Philbin wasnt here two years ago. Ireland said he is marrying himself to Philbin which basically is getting groceries he likes.

    I also keep thinking they are looking for a 230-240lb guy FB type. Not sure they are all that on the A&M kid. He looks like he was hitting the chicken wings by midseason again.
     
  36. MRojas4

    MRojas4 The Cheese Connoisseur Finheaven VIP

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    I'm all for bringing Reggie back. DT is a bust and Miller has shown promise. Basically we have two decent backs. I'm not banking the season on Gray having some breakout year or DT for that matter. We all know Miller can play but he can't block. Some people on here are taking a Madden approach to this thinking one RB can last the whole season.
     
  37. MexDolfan

    MexDolfan Seasoned Veteran

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    I have been bleeding aqua and orange since elementary school man!

    But would love to see improvement not absurdly risky situations.
    Miller and Thomas are too fragile to carry the load during a full season, that's my reason to ask for another RB.
     
  38. Awsi Dooger

    Awsi Dooger A True Fan

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    That was almost too funny. All it lacked was the exclamation point. Look at him now? You want to get rid of him.

    I'm in the Reggie Bush camp but I don't want to get rid of Lamer Miller. Hardly. Why is the opposite correlation so strong, that the Miller backers are determined to get rid of Reggie? We have all this cap room yet instead of wiggling here and there while keeping a proven playmaker we're intent on pretending a few million to this lineman and that lineman is a superior investment.

    Granted, we could probably score 18 points per game again, with or without Reggie Bush. There's only so much room down below. NFL teams don't score 10 points per game. It's the reason the Reggie knockers have so much free margin toward 2013. No matter who the personnel is, it's almost guaranteed the scoring average bounces upward, the natural flirtation with the league mean. And then all the geniuses can pronounce it's Reggie's absence that ignited the upward movement. I've seen that type of rationalization for decades.

    If we're contending for a playoff role, Reggie Bush can make the difference in a game or two, and in the playoff setting itself. That should be the criteria. The NFL is flooded with tight games. That's why it's insanity to go back over the schedule and announce we should be 9-7 instead of 7-9 because we lost one game by 3 and another in overtime, or whatever, while ignoring all the narrow wins, as if those were destined to unfold that way. I stick results into Excel and calculate formulas literally every day. Today I'm working on 2010. Games are close. They'll be close. I don't know how we happily evaluate the roster and conclude we're better off in a competitive game without Reggie Bush. It's the type of situation in which the public is actually far better informed than the obsessed fan. Sit in the stands at a Dolphin game and ask for a list of the top players. Reggie Bush's name will pop up immediately, within the top handful. Ask who we can least afford to get rid of and once again his name is early and emphatic. The public knows touchdowns. On sites like this too often it's like a board game, moving pieces around while mock drafting a year away and proposing trades that always obscenely favor the home team.
     
  39. TealAttack13

    TealAttack13 A True Fan

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    He doesn't seem keen on coming back because he knows there are teams out there that are going to offer him a lot of money and commit to him long term, we simply aren't going to do that. I'd like him back too, I like him a lot, but I think it's time to look past him. For all intents and purposes, he's gone.
     
  40. MexDolfan

    MexDolfan Seasoned Veteran

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    You should be kidding.

    Joe Philbin wants an effective WCO and the foundations of such offense is to allow your passer to fake a run and get time to evaluate his best shoot while passing.
    Also after faking, the RB becomes another target for the passer. And each potential target must help whoever carries the football to get as many YAC as possible.

    So a WCO RB must be capable of protecting his passer and blocking in order to be successful.

    The answer to "Why not?" is you can't go to Kwik-E-Mart and ask for a package of blocking technique. This has to be developed by training. Some guys require less repetition, other delay a year or more. In example Egnew saw few action on his rookie season because he was incapable of blocking.
     

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