Looking at receivers in draft

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I think most of us would all like the "total package" at WR....big, tall, fast, explosive, physical, runs crisp routes, excellent hands, etc., etc...

My point is....most of the time you're going to have to choose between a guy that possesses half these traits and missing the other half.....there's a difference between TALENT and SKILL...

Ideally, you want to choose the guy that possesses the "talent" traits that you cant coach....and coach him up on the "skill" traits.....that CAN be coached.....if those TALENT traits are rare....

However, if those TALENT traits are average/above average...you're better off going with the guy that more polished in the SKILL traits...


I prefer to ignore "track" speed...RARELY does it ever translate into pads....what you see on film is what translates into pads...

You basically re-enforced what I already mentioned...which is that the best WR's in the NFL that are both big and explosive with dependable hands....have their bulk distributed evenly in the lower body....it's not all up top.....and it's interesting you brought up Carl Lewis....

True Story - In the early 80's I had to attend high school for 2 years in Bay City, Texas....ran track, played football, and baseball....while I was there I ran track with the fastest human being I've ever seen...

He was my height (about 6'0")...but this guy probably only weighed 170 pounds soaking wet....very cut and very muscular...but very, very little bulk in the lower body...

This guy's name was Joe DeLoach....he beat Carl Lewis in the 200m for the gold medal in the '88 Olympics....setting a world record at the time of 19.75s...

He always wanted to play football but he knew his calling was between the stripes....not between the sidelines....some people never realize it...

I actually like Benn....he fits the profile of the type of WR that Miami needs....but he also fits the profile of one of the guys that will struggle to catch the ball consistently....he does now at times....

Personally, I prefer a guy that's more elusive and creative with the ball in his hands if I'm going to use a 1st round pick on him.....I might go ahead and choose Benn if I were picking late in the 1st round...

But if I'm picking in the middle of the 1st....I'm targeting other players...

 

[hoops]

well i can say that when i spoke with ireland directly last week the first name at wr he brought up that he liked was brandon lafell...

 

[hoops]

I think most of us would all like the "total package" at WR....big, tall, fast, explosive, physical, runs crisp routes, excellent hands, etc., etc...

My point is....most of the time you're going to have to choose between a guy that possesses half these traits and missing the other half.....there's a difference between TALENT and SKILL...

Ideally, you want to choose the guy that possesses the "talent" traits that you cant coach....and coach him up on the "skill" traits.....that CAN be coached.....if those TALENT traits are rare....

However, if those TALENT traits are average/above average...you're better off going with the guy that more polished in the SKILL traits...


I prefer to ignore "track" speed...RARELY does it ever translate into pads....what you see on film is what translates into pads...

You basically re-enforced what I already mentioned...which is that the best WR's in the NFL that are both big and explosive with dependable hands....have their bulk distributed evenly in the lower body....it's not all up top.....and it's interesting you brought up Carl Lewis....

True Story - In the early 80's I had to attend high school for 2 years in Bay City, Texas....ran track, played football, and baseball....while I was there I ran track with the fastest human being I've ever seen...

He was my height (about 6'0")...but this guy probably only weighed 170 pounds soaking wet....very cut and very muscular...but very, very little bulk in the lower body...

This guy's name was Joe DeLoach....he beat Carl Lewis in the 200m for the gold medal in the '88 Olympics....setting a world record at the time of 19.75s...

He always wanted to play football but he knew his calling was between the stripes....not between the sidelines....some people never realize it...

I actually like Benn....he fits the profile of the type of WR that Miami needs....but he also fits the profile of one of the guys that will struggle to catch the ball consistently....he does now at times....

Personally, I prefer a guy that's more elusive and creative with the ball in his hands if I'm going to use a 1st round pick on him.....I might go ahead and choose Benn if I were picking late in the 1st round...

But if I'm picking in the middle of the 1st....I'm targeting other players...
[/quote]


i think we're gonna end up picking in the 18 to 22 range when it's all said and done...

having said that what targets that you like do you think we'll have a realistic shot at??? i don't think dez bryant or rolando mcclain will still be on the board then...

 

[jim1]

I think most of us would all like the "total package" at WR....big, tall, fast, explosive, physical, runs crisp routes, excellent hands, etc., etc...

My point is....most of the time you're going to have to choose between a guy that possesses half these traits and missing the other half.....there's a difference between TALENT and SKILL...

Ideally, you want to choose the guy that possesses the "talent" traits that you cant coach....and coach him up on the "skill" traits.....that CAN be coached.....if those TALENT traits are rare....

However, if those TALENT traits are average/above average...you're better off going with the guy that more polished in the SKILL traits...


I prefer to ignore "track" speed...RARELY does it ever translate into pads....what you see on film is what translates into pads...

You basically re-enforced what I already mentioned...which is that the best WR's in the NFL that are both big and explosive with dependable hands....have their bulk distributed evenly in the lower body....it's not all up top.....and it's interesting you brought up Carl Lewis....

True Story - In the early 80's I had to attend high school for 2 years in Bay City, Texas....ran track, played football, and baseball....while I was there I ran track with the fastest human being I've ever seen...

He was my height (about 6'0")...but this guy probably only weighed 170 pounds soaking wet....very cut and very muscular...but very, very little bulk in the lower body...

This guy's name was Joe DeLoach....he beat Carl Lewis in the 200m for the gold medal in the '88 Olympics....setting a world record at the time of 19.75s...

He always wanted to play football but he knew his calling was between the stripes....not between the sidelines....some people never realize it...

I actually like Benn....he fits the profile of the type of WR that Miami needs....but he also fits the profile of one of the guys that will struggle to catch the ball consistently....he does now at times....

Personally, I prefer a guy that's more elusive and creative with the ball in his hands if I'm going to use a 1st round pick on him.....I might go ahead and choose Benn if I were picking late in the 1st round...

But if I'm picking in the middle of the 1st....I'm targeting other players...

Sounds like you would prefer Gilyard then. I did a little bit of research on Austin/Coles/Marshall- big fast dudes who proves to be great values- and they seemed to have a track background more often than not. I'm not for reaching- not reaching for Henne said a lot to me, because I'm thinking that the FO really liked him. But from our 1st rd pick to 2nd- danger zone in terms of WRs falling off of the board. A trade up in the 2nd rd would strike me as a possibility. A guy like benn- seriously, from #20 to say #30-45, who knows where he ends up going. If they have a conviction on a guy and the price is right I say do it. We all know that getting a #1 is a requirement, not a want.

 

[hoops]

gilyards too small...we got enough 175 lb wrs...pass

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I do like Gilyard....although I'm not a fan of the type of offense he plays in...

The issue isn't that Miami has "enough" 175 pound WR's....they only have one....the issue is that the one that they have isn't a WR....he's a pansy *** kick returner...

Gilyard is a WR...and he's in the 185-190 pound range anyway...

Similar to Damian Williams....who as I mentioned isn't anything special PHYSICALLY.....but he puts both O's in the word SMOOTH.....he plays so under control and makes everything look easy....he does all the little things well.....he runs great routes...has reliable hands....willing to block...and creates seperation with his route running...

I think a lot of people are paying too much attention to size and not enough attention to what these guys do on the field....

Williams and Gilyard aren't 6'4".....they're not going to run 4.3.....they can't seperate themselves PHYSICALLY from the pack.....but they are two of the most polished, and NFL ready WR's in the draft....

Williams reminds me of Reggie Wayne....who also couldn't seperate himself PHYSICALLY in the draft....

Miami needs good, sure handed WR's that run great routes and can create seperation in and out of breaks....can run after the catch....

Just because you're 6'4" or 6'5" and 220 doesn't mean you're any good (see Patrick Turner)....

If Miami has had ENOUGH of anything lately....it's been ENOUGH of the 6'4"-6'5" 220 pound WR's that suck...(Turner, Wilford, etc.)

Williams and Gilyard are both better prospects than guys like Robiskie, etc. were last year IMO...who went at the top of the 2nd round...

I was never that impressed with Patrick Turner to begin with....he didn't get enough seperation for my taste....especially to be taking in the 3rd round...

We would all ideally love an Andre Johnson, Larry Fitgerald, Calvin Johnson type receiver.....but those guys don't come in every draft....just because you're 6'4" 220 and can run a 4.4 in a straightline with no pads doesn't mean you're of that caliber...

And as for Bryant or McClain being available when Miami picks....highly unlikely....I can't see either of them lasting 15 picks...

 

[jim1]

I do like Gilyard....although I'm not a fan of the type of offense he plays in...

The issue isn't that Miami has "enough" 175 pound WR's....they only have one....the issue is that the one that they have isn't a WR....he's a pansy *** kick returner...

Gilyard is a WR...and he's in the 185-190 pound range anyway...

Similar to Damian Williams....who as I mentioned isn't anything special PHYSICALLY.....but he puts both O's in the word SMOOTH.....he plays so under control and makes everything look easy....he does all the little things well.....he runs great routes...has reliable hands....willing to block...and creates seperation with his route running...

I think a lot of people are paying too much attention to size and not enough attention to what these guys do on the field....

Williams and Gilyard aren't 6'4".....they're not going to run 4.3.....they can't seperate themselves PHYSICALLY from the pack.....but they are two of the most polished, and NFL ready WR's in the draft....

Williams reminds me of Reggie Wayne....who also couldn't seperate himself PHYSICALLY in the draft....

Miami needs good, sure handed WR's that run great routes and can create seperation in and out of breaks....can run after the catch....

Just because you're 6'4" or 6'5" and 220 doesn't mean you're any good (see Patrick Turner)....

If Miami has had ENOUGH of anything lately....it's been ENOUGH of the 6'4"-6'5" 220 pound WR's that suck...(Turner, Wilford, etc.)

Williams and Gilyard are both better prospects than guys like Robiskie, etc. were last year IMO...who went at the top of the 2nd round...

I was never that impressed with Patrick Turner to begin with....he didn't get enough seperation for my taste....especially to be taking in the 3rd round...

We would all ideally love an Andre Johnson, Larry Fitgerald, Calvin Johnson type receiver.....but those guys don't come in every draft....just because you're 6'4" 220 and can run a 4.4 in a straightline with no pads doesn't mean you're of that caliber...

And as for Bryant or McClain being available when Miami picks....highly unlikely....I can't see either of them lasting 15 picks...

True, but that's dancing around the obvious. The goal is to get a big, strong WR with explosion. It's the same thing that I've been saying- Austin and Colston showed that it can be done in a later round, even FA. Brandon Marshall, Vincent Jackson- what, 2nd and 4th rd picks? That's fine, too. I know that these values come along rarely, but I'm hoping that we find a guy like these WRs. I have a feeling that Danario Alexander would be to close to Pat Turner. For all the times that I was wrong- I liked John Beck a lot- I was right in my hunch about Miles Austin. Which means nothing, except that I'm looking for another guy like that. That's probably why I'm locked on to Arrelious Benn.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

True, but that's dancing around the obvious. The goal is to get a big, strong WR with explosion. It's the same thing that I've been saying- Austin and Colston showed that it can be done in a later round, even FA. Brandon Marshall, Vincent Jackson- what, 2nd and 4th rd picks? That's fine, too. I know that these values come along rarely, but I'm hoping that we find a guy like these WRs. I have a feeling that Danario Alexander would be to close to Pat Turner. For all the times that I was wrong- I liked John Beck a lot- I was right in my hunch about Miles Austin. Which means nothing, except that I'm looking for another guy like that. That's probably why I'm locked on to Arrelious Benn.

I'm not in disagreement with you on the fact that Miami needs a strong, explosive, fast, wide receiver.....that's exactly what Miami needs....it's the "big" part that is irrelevant IMO.....particularly height....

Personally, I would put "reliable hands"...."ability to create seperation"......"quick in and out of breaks"......."crisp route runner"......and "run after the catch ability".......above "big" on my list of prerequisites...

 

[jim1]

I'm not in disagreement with you on the fact that Miami needs a strong, explosive, fast, wide receiver.....that's exactly what Miami needs....it's the "big" part that is irrelevant IMO.....particularly height....

Personally, I would put "reliable hands"...."ability to create seperation"......"quick in and out of breaks"......."crisp route runner"......and "run after the catch ability".......above "big" on my list of prerequisites...

There's a big differernce between preference and irrelevant. How you could refer to size as irrelevant just doesn't register with me. I'll give you an example though- I'd prefer Golden Tate to Denario Alexander. Not that it's a stretch, but my point is that he provides the qualities that you listed in the 2nd paragraph- and they are critical factors, especially to us since we have less of them on our team than any other NFL team that I can think of. So a guy like Tate- hell yes, bring it on.

That being said- the size part counts- look at Randy Moss toying with smaller CBs, going up for the catch. Irvin used his size well, Keyshawn Johnson, Art Monk, Harold Charmichael. The list goes on. And Parcell love size. Getting position and going after high balls- you have to go get it. And not just height, but bulk- YAC, blocking, getting off the LOS. Players get downgraded for a lack of height and bulk- the reasons for it are obvious. To me, Bryant and Benn remain standouts, and DThomas has a lot of great qualities, I still want to see more in terms of explosion.

But of course the size has to translate. Pat Turner- dude is large- tall and muscular- what, about 6-5, 225? He's a glider, not an explosion/separation guy. Brandon Lafell is probably tougher than Turner- I'm troubled by the reports that Turner can't beat the press at his size- but I don't see enough explosion and YAC ability in Lafell to merit a 1st round pick. I could see him sliding to the 2nd rd. And, as has happened many time before, I might end up eating my words like a big plate of Thanksgiving food. But still, when I think about it I'd have a hard time taking Lafell over A Benn or D Thomas. And my guess is that I'de take Golden Tate over Mardy Gilyard. Ted Ginn should take notes on this catch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffQQXi7YnNk

THAT is how you go up and make a play. BTW, look at the wheels on Notre Dame TE Dave Ragone. Wow- and the dude is 6-5, 255? Big, fast, Italian TE from New Jersey and Notre Dame- sounds like a Bill Parcells special. Look for him to get serious interest from us next year, provided that we don't grab a guy high this year.

 

[hoops]

i'd take tate in a second from what i've seen over gilyard...i'm not huge on lafell myself as a legit #1 wr down the line.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

There's a big differernce between preference and irrelevant. How you could refer to size as irrelevant just doesn't register with me. I'll give you an example though- I'd prefer Golden Tate to Denario Alexander. Not that it's a stretch, but my point is that he provides the qualities that you listed in the 2nd paragraph- and they are critical factors, especially to us since we have less of them on our team than any other NFL team that I can think of. So a guy like Tate- hell yes, bring it on.

That being said- the size part counts- look at Randy Moss toying with smaller CBs, going up for the catch. Irvin used his size well, Keyshawn Johnson, Art Monk, Harold Charmichael. The list goes on. And Parcell love size. Getting position and going after high balls- you have to go get it. And not just height, but bulk- YAC, blocking, getting off the LOS. Players get downgraded for a lack of height and bulk- the reasons for it are obvious. To me, Bryant and Benn remain standouts, and DThomas has a lot of great qualities, I still want to see more in terms of explosion.

But of course the size has to translate. Pat Turner- dude is large- tall and muscular- what, about 6-5, 225? He's a glider, not an explosion/separation guy. Brandon Lafell is probably tougher than Turner- I'm troubled by the reports that Turner can't beat the press at his size- but I don't see enough explosion and YAC ability in Lafell to merit a 1st round pick. I could see him sliding to the 2nd rd. And, as has happened many time before, I might end up eating my words like a big plate of Thanksgiving food. But still, when I think about it I'd have a hard time taking Lafell over A Benn or D Thomas. And my guess is that I'de take Golden Tate over Mardy Gilyard. Ted Ginn should take notes on this catch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffQQXi7YnNk

THAT is how you go up and make a play. BTW, look at the wheels on Notre Dame TE Dave Ragone. Wow- and the dude is 6-5, 255? Big, fast, Italian TE from Notre Dame- sounds like a Bill Parcells special. Look for him to get serious interest from us next year, provided that we don't grab a guy high this year.

I'm not saying size is irrelevant all together....I'm saying it's irrelevant to me if the guy can't play ****ing football....

I'll take eleven 5'11" Golden Tate's over eleven 6'4"-6'5" guys that are going to be wearing street clothes on Sundays.....or eleven "big tall" guys that can't get seperation at the next level but have inflated stats due to the offenses they play in...

"Big" is lower on the priority list for WR's than all of the other characteristics I've mentioned is what I'm getting at....

Randy Moss isn't one of the best WR's in NFL history because he's 6'4"........he's one of the best WR's in NFL history because he's 6'4" and ran a sub 4.3 40....with RARE body control....leaping ability...explosion....and hand-eye coordination.....

If I have a choice between two WR's who are indentical in every aspect of skill and talent (just for the sake of conversation) but one is 5'11" and the other is 6'3".....OF COURSE I'll take the one that's 6'3"....

Just curious....how much college football do watch? Because you're going to be really confused basing your evaluations of these players based on highlights and slam dunking basketballs as opposed to their bodies of work every Saturday...

BTW...you want see what a potential top 10 pick at TE looks like? You've got the right team...but wrong player....Kyle Rudolph is the guy....

... Happy Thanksgiving....

 

[jim1]

i'd take tate in a second from what i've seen over gilyard...i'm not huge on lafell myself as a legit #1 wr down the line.

I pretty much agree with all of that- except for Tate over Gilyard being a no brainer. The caveat is how little I've seen of Gilyard. It's redundant, but I feel compelled to bring it up when the subject of Gilyard comes up.

I still think that Lafell is a talent that you hope falls to you in the 2nd rd. I'm still confused by the comparisons to him and Dwayne Bowe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5H_m-yRc6Q

Lafell is a tough guy, but Bowe is a physical presence with great lateral quickness for a guy his size imo. Down the line I don't see Lafell being Bowe's equal in any facet of the game- except maybe hands, I'm not sure about that one- both seem to have good hands to me. And yeah, Bowe has dropped a few in the pros. BTW, in terms of explosion LSU DB #7 seems to have it in spades. Not sure what year he is.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I pretty much agree with all of that- except for Tate over Gilyard being a no brainer. The caveat is how little I've seen of Gilyard. It's redundant, but I feel compelled to bring it up when the subject of Gilyard comes up.

I still think that Lafell is a talent that you hope falls to you in the 2nd rd. I'm still confused by the comparisons to him and Dwayne Bowe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5H_m-yRc6Q

Lafell is a tough guy, but Bowe is a physical presence with great lateral quickness for a guy his size imo. Down the line I don't see Lafell being Bowe's equal in any facet of the game- except maybe hands, I'm not sure about that one- both seem to have good hands to me. And yeah, Bowe has dropped a few in the pros. BTW, in terms of explosion LSU DB #7 seems to have it in spades. Not sure what year he is.

That would be Patrick Peterson.....he's a sophomore....and the best CB in the country IMO.....RIGHT NOW....

Not only does he have explosion....he's going to be the most complete package at CB to come out since Shawn Springs/Bryant Westbrook IMO....I think he could be a top 5 pick if he comes out next year....

 

[jim1]

I'm not saying size is irrelevant all together....I'm saying it's irrelevant to me if the guy can't play ****ing football....

I'll take eleven 5'11" Golden Tate's over eleven 6'4"-6'5" guys that are going to be wearing street clothes on Sundays.....or eleven "big tall" guys that can't get seperation at the next level but have inflated stats due to the offenses they play in...

"Big" is lower on the priority list for WR's than all of the other characteristics I've mentioned is what I'm getting at....

Randy Moss isn't one of the best WR's in NFL history because he's 6'4"........he's one of the best WR's in NFL history because he's 6'4" and ran a sub 4.3 40....with RARE body control....leaping ability...explosion....and hand-eye coordination.....

If I have a choice between two WR's who are indentical in every aspect of skill and talent (just for the sake of conversation) but one is 5'11" and the other is 6'3".....OF COURSE I'll take the one that's 6'3"....

Just curious....how much college football do watch? Because you're going to be really confused basing your evaluations of these players based on highlights and slam dunking basketballs as opposed to their bodies of work every Saturday...

BTW...you want see what a potential top 10 pick at TE looks like? You've got the right team...but wrong player....Kyle Rudolph is the guy....

... Happy Thanksgiving....

Dude- first of all the majority of your post (yet again) was an excercise in stating the obvious. That being preceded by you minimizing the importance of speed and size, which is kind of ridiculous. Of course and the end of the day these guys have to be able to play- once again an homage to your mastery of the obvious. But these tenths of a second count. I worked for a guy whose son was the career leader in rushing for Colgate and went on to play for the Steelers. He was telling me about the critical difference from say 4.4 to 4.5 in terms of an NFL RB turning the corner on a sweep. If I recall correctly we were discussing Walter Abercormbie from years ago as well as his son in that regard. I agree with him about tenths of seconds counting, and the majority of your last few posts rate anywhere from disagreement to a solid "whatever". Seriously, re read them- size and speed don't matter, production does but all things being equal you'll go for the better size and speed. Uh, ok. I wouldn't submit that thesis to any scouting departments in the near future.

I watch enough college football to get an idea of who I do and don't like. I don't make a habit of focusing on just the physical aspect of it ie slam dunking. It's just a small part of judging a player's ability. The fact of the matter is that I haven't seen Mike Williams play- and if I want to venture a guess or indicate interest on occassion by "profiling", to use your term, I will. It's the exception, not the rule. So when you suggest that I make a habit of judging players in this regard forgive me if I take offense. Bottom line the guy has the production under his belt and superior athletic skills. It doesn't mean that I'm on his band wagon, it means that I think that he has intriguing qualities. His name came up frequently and I looked him up, end of story.

Personally, I'd love to have both Golden Tate and Arrelious Benn. Both would bring a lot of qualities to the Dolphins WR posiotion that are sorely lacking, and both can return kicks as well. But that's most likely a pipe dream. We have other needs, too, no doubt.

Anyway, for the most part I do enjoy reading your posts. Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[hoops]

I pretty much agree with all of that- except for Tate over Gilyard being a no brainer. The caveat is how little I've seen of Gilyard. It's redundant, but I feel compelled to bring it up when the subject of Gilyard comes up.

I still think that Lafell is a talent that you hope falls to you in the 2nd rd. I'm still confused by the comparisons to him and Dwayne Bowe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5H_m-yRc6Q

Lafell is a tough guy, but Bowe is a physical presence with great lateral quickness for a guy his size imo. Down the line I don't see Lafell being Bowe's equal in any facet of the game- except maybe hands, I'm not sure about that one- both seem to have good hands to me. And yeah, Bowe has dropped a few in the pros. BTW, in terms of explosion LSU DB #7 seems to have it in spades. Not sure what year he is.

i'd agree and i haven't seen all that much of gilyard either but i'm so damn tired of watching tiny wrs who barely fill out the uni run routes for us so i've got a certain size i'd like to see...

yeah lafell i don't know...i see a long term #2 when i look at him...

the #7 db patrick peterson i believe is legit and will be a top pick in 2011

somebody put up some gilyard tape for us to review...i saw him once this year against cuse i think it was and i didn't come away overly impressed...of course i was watching mike williams closely and he didn't look all that explosive to me either.