Looking at receivers in draft

[jim1]

i'd agree and i haven't seen all that much of gilyard either but i'm so damn tired of watching tiny wrs who barely fill out the uni run routes for us so i've got a certain size i'd like to see...

yeah lafell i don't know...i see a long term #2 when i look at him...

the #7 db patrick peterson i believe is legit and will be a top pick in 2011

somebody put up some gilyard tape for us to review...i saw him once this year against cuse i think it was and i didn't come away overly impressed...of course i was watching mike williams closely and he didn't look all that explosive to me either.

Wow, I'd like to find that game on tape somewhere. That would kill two birds with one stone, seeing Gilyard and Williams. I'd imagine that getting Tivo would help as well.

 

[hoops]

Wow, I'd like to find that game on tape somewhere. That would kill two birds with one stone, seeing Gilyard and Williams. I'd imagine that getting Tivo would help as well.

it was earlier this year a nooner on espn or the deuce or maybe the u...i went in hearing about how good a wr pro prospect mike williams was and came away kinda mid round pick...than he quit the team

i'm gonna search foe more tape on these wrs before i go any further with my takes...there's some peoples opinions i really respect who are high on some guys i haven't been all that taken with...

i know when i watch golden tate i see steve smith like pro player and he really stands out...

dez bryant is by far my favorite though...i see eric moulds like player there in short order maybe not as fast but a physical instant impact pro player

the illinois offense is so putrid i'm having a hard time getting a read on benn...physical marvel though and trapped on that sorry team

 

[jim1]

Pretty much agreed. In terms of speed, lateral movement, big play ability, it's kind of hard not to like Tate. And of course the kick returns.

Everyone of course has their opinion on Benn. And it has been frustrating watching him this year. He's not the manimal that Bryant is, but he's plenty fast, plenty big, and he looks like he moves pretty darned well to me in terms of quicks and yac. He's not Golden Tate quickness wise, but to me he looks quick enough, especially at 6-2, 220. And the guy sure has the calf muscles to provide explosion. They try to get him invloved in the offense with option pitches, which is good to see because you can gauge him better since their passing offense blows so badly. The guy has some swivel to him and a nose for the endzone.

 

[hoops]

Pretty much agreed. In terms of speed, lateral movement, big play ability, it's kind of hard not to like Tate. And of course the kick returns.

Everyone of course has their opinion on Benn. And it has been frustrating watching him this year. He's not the manimal that Bryant is, but he's plenty fast, plenty big, and he looks like he moves pretty darned well to me in terms of quicks and yac. He's not Golden Tate quickness wise, but to me he looks quick enough, especially at 6-2, 220. And the guy sure has the calf muscles to provide explosion. They try to get him invloved in the offense with option pitches, which is good to see because you can gauge him better since their passing offense blows so badly. The guy has some swivel to him and a nose for the endzone.

well what pro does he remind you of??? i don't really have a guy that he reminds me of

i also have concerns about his hands...looks like he catches the ball to me alot with his body...but i thought that about kenny britt last year that he didn't have natural hands like hakeem nicks or crabtree and that turned out ok...

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Dude- first of all the majority of your post (yet again) was an excercise in stating the obvious. That being preceded by you minimizing the importance of speed and size, which is kind of ridiculous. Of course and the end of the day these guys have to be able to play- once again an homage to your mastery of the obvious. But these tenths of a second count. I worked for a guy whose son was the career leader in rushing for Colgate and went on to play for the Steelers. He was telling me about the critical difference from say 4.4 to 4.5 in terms of an NFL RB turning the corner on a sweep. If I recall correctly we were discussing Walter Abercormbie from years ago as well as his son in that regard. I agree with him about tenths of seconds counting, and the majority of your last few posts rate anywhere from disagreement to a solid "whatever". Seriously, re read them- size and speed don't matter, production does but all things being equal you'll go for the better size and speed. Uh, ok. I wouldn't submit that thesis to any scouting departments in the near future.

I watch enough college football to get an idea of who I do and don't like. I don't make a habit of focusing on just the physical aspect of it ie slam dunking. It's just a small part of judging a player's ability. The fact of the matter is that I haven't seen Mike Williams play- and if I want to venture a guess or indicate interest on occassion by "profiling", to use your term, I will. It's the exception, not the rule. So when you suggest that I make a habit of judging players in this regard forgive me if I take offense. Bottom line the guy has the production under his belt and superior athletic skills. It doesn't mean that I'm on his band wagon, it means that I think that he has intriguing qualities. His name came up frequently and I looked him up, end of story.

Personally, I'd love to have both Golden Tate and Arrelious Benn. Both would bring a lot of qualities to the Dolphins WR posiotion that are sorely lacking, and both can return kicks as well. But that's most likely a pipe dream. We have other needs, too, no doubt.

Anyway, for the most part I do enjoy reading your posts. Happy Thanksgiving.

Those tenths of a second don't matter unless you play the game of football to that timed speed.....

Do you honestly think Ted Ginn plays the game of football at 4.3?

Do you think Emmitt Smith played the game at 4.8?

Terrell Owens at 4.6?

Tony Gonzalez at 4.8?

Jerry Rice at 4.6-4.7?


The issue is that a 4.4 guy isn't going to turn the corner against NFL defenses any more than a 4.5 guy is so it doesn't really matter....it boils down to too many other variables that are unique to the player as to how much difference it makes....

Hell...a 4.3 guy isn't going to get the corner on NFL defenses as much for it to make that much of a difference....

 

[jim1]

Those tenths of a second don't matter unless you play the game of football to that timed speed.....

Do you honestly think Ted Ginn plays the game of football at 4.3?

Do you think Emmitt Smith played the game at 4.8?

Terrell Owens at 4.6?

Tony Gonzalez at 4.8?

Jerry Rice at 4.6-4.7?


The issue is that a 4.4 guy isn't going to turn the corner against NFL defenses any more than a 4.5 guy is so it doesn't really matter....it boils down to too many other variables that are unique to the player as to how much difference it makes....

Hell...a 4.3 guy isn't going to get the corner on NFL defenses as much for it to make that much of a difference....

Tell that to Chris Johnson. Are you assuming that none of the fast guys play to their timed speed? Of course the speed has to translate to the field. Take a guy like Devin Aromashodu- great triangle numbers but it didn't translate, which is why he lasted until the 7th and has been a journeyman at best. So your point, yet again, is that if a guy is big and fast but plays like s*** then it just doesn't matter? Again, thanks for clarifying. Emmitt Smith was a 4.8 or so RB. Jerry Rice was a 4.7 WR. The are the two best at their position ever production wise. I get it. But every NFL team with a scouting department that meticuloulsy researches and documents size, strength, speed and pays untold millions to guys that measure up in those regards, often reaching based on what they perceive as potential- they must be a collection of *******es, right? They're quantifiable pieces of the puzzle, allow that to sink in for a minute. To paraphrase Lou Holtz, the race doesn't always to to the fastest and the strongest, but that's how I'm betting.

Production, intangibles, physical ability- it all counts. Now I'll state the obvious- NFL players are bigger and faster on average than their college counterparts. What cuts it in college won't necessarily cut it in the pros. So scouts have to project- what were the production numbers? What was the competition? Will the player's physical abilities measure up to the next level of competition and will his production translate to the pro game? A LOT of very productive college players simply get flushed out because of things like size, speed, tenths of a second, etc. No offense, but this stuff is just flat out obvious.

And speaking of Chris Johnson, take a look at a couple of Titans running backs- C Johnson is uber fast and plays like it. Chris Henry was drafted on strength, speed and size in the 2nd rd- God knows he wasn't drafted for his college production, and he flamed out with his raw skills not translating to the pro game. It goes both ways. Drafting is an art, not a science. And that's probably why guys like us are interested in it.

This discussion is boring at this point, my fault as much as yours. Enjoy your Thanksgiving and I'll do the same.

 

[hoops]

hey illinois against cincy friday at noon on abc...gives me a birds eye view of benn and gilyard...

nice

 

[DearbornDolfan]

At this point my perfect draft involves some serious moves at the WR position.


1) Package a 1st, 3rd, and Camarillo to the Chiefs for their 1st. I think they'd bite because Bowe at Split End, Chambers at Flanker, and Camarillo in the slot gives the Chiefs a dynamic passing attack that Haley would love. With that pick take Dez Bryant.

2) In the 2nd take Demaryius Thomas. He's a project, but damned if he isn't a man-child and he has plenty of wheels for somebody that weighs 230 pounds. GT claims 4.3 speed, but you know how that goes, so the real numbers are likely in the 4.4 to 4.5 range.

3) Package Ginn to the Raiders for a 3rd. Al Davis loves his speed and Ginn has enough production to justify it easily in his twisted, dementia-riddled mind.

 

[DearbornDolfan]

Do you honestly think Ted Ginn plays the game of football at 4.3?

Yeah, he does. Say what you want about his timidness, because I know I've said it all, but the kid can turn it on in a hurry when he wants. Check out some of his pro highlights on Youtube if you don't believe me.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Tell that to Chris Johnson. Are you assuming that none of the fast guys play to their timed speed? Of course the speed has to translate to the field. Take a guy like Devin Aromashodu- great triangle numbers but it didn't translate, which is why he lasted until the 7th and has been a journeyman at best. So your point, yet again, is that if a guy is big and fast but plays like s*** then it just doesn't matter? Again, thanks for clarifying. Emmitt Smith was a 4.8 or so RB. Jerry Rice was a 4.7 WR. The are the two best at their position ever production wise. I get it. But every NFL team with a scouting department that meticuloulsy researches and documents size, strength, speed and pays untold millions to guys that measure up in those regards, often reaching based on what they perceive as potential- they must be a collection of *******es, right? They're quantifiable pieces of the puzzle, allow that to sink in for a minute. To paraphrase Lou Holtz, the race doesn't always to to the fastest and the strongest, but that's how I'm betting.

Production, intangibles, physical ability- it all counts. Now I'll state the obvious- NFL players are bigger and faster on average than their college counterparts. What cuts it in college won't necessarily cut it in the pros. So scouts have to project- what were the production numbers? What was the competition? Will the player's physical abilities measure up to the next level of competition and will his production translate to the pro game? A LOT of very productive college players simply get flushed out because of things like size, speed, tenths of a second, etc. No offense, but this stuff is just flat out obvious.

And speaking of Chris Johnson, take a look at a couple of Titans running backs- C Johnson is uber fast and plays like it. Chris Henry was drafted on strength, speed and size in the 2nd rd- God knows he wasn't drafted for his college production, and he flamed out with his raw skills not translating to the pro game. It goes both ways. Drafting is an art, not a science. And that's probably why guys like us are interested in it.

This discussion is boring at this point, my fault as much as yours. Enjoy your Thanksgiving and I'll do the same.

If it were a race I'd bet that way to.....but in the business of acquiring talent....you have to make sure you're getting what translates to the football field first and foremost....

"Big"..."Tall"..."Fast"...etc....doesn't always translate.....

The odds of having "reliable hands, crisp route running, ability to seperate, explosive in and out of breaks, and run after the catch ability".....are more in your favor of translating into productivity on the football field than "big, tall, and fast in a straightline"....

How did I already know you were going to bring up Chris Johnson?

Chris Johnson actually has SUB 4.3 speed (4.24)....and even HE doesn't make a living getting the corner on NFL defenses....although he certainly can more than a 4.4 or 4.5 guy......Johnson has the agility, vision, and patience, and enough tackle breaking ability to let his rare speed work for him......his longest runs don't come from turning the corner on NFL defenses....they come when he finds a crease and gets his shoulders square to the LOS....he can outrun just about anybody from there....

Are you bored again already? Should we go back to the Tebow thread?

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Yeah, he does. Say what you want about his timidness, because I know I've said it all, but the kid can turn it on in a hurry when he wants. Check out some of his pro highlights on Youtube if you don't believe me.

Thanks for making my case for me.....

However, if I were going to take the time to "check out" someone's highlights to be entertained....It probably wouldn't be Ginn's.....but that's just me....

Welcome to this boring discussion...

 

[jim1]

If it were a race I'd bet that way to.....but in the business of acquiring talent....you have to make sure you're getting what translates to the football field first and foremost....

"Big"..."Tall"..."Fast"...etc....doesn't always translate.....

The odds of having "reliable hands, crisp route running, ability to seperate, explosive in and out of breaks, and run after the catch ability".....are more in your favor of translating into productivity on the football field than "big, tall, and fast in a straightline"....

How did I already know you were going to bring up Chris Johnson?

Chris Johnson actually has SUB 4.3 speed (4.24)....and even HE doesn't make a living getting the corner on NFL defenses....although he certainly can more than a 4.4 or 4.5 guy......Johnson has the agility, vision, and patience, and enough tackle breaking ability to let his rare speed work for him......his longest runs don't come from turning the corner on NFL defenses....they come when he finds a crease and gets his shoulders square to the LOS....he can outrun just about anybody from there....

Are you bored again already? Should we go back to the Tebow thread?

Well, first you said:
"The issue is that a 4.4 guy isn't going to turn the corner against NFL defenses any more than a 4.5 guy is so it doesn't really matter."

Which is wrong.

Then you said:
"Chris Johnson actually has SUB 4.3 speed (4.24)....and even HE doesn't make a living getting the corner on NFL defenses."

No one ever mentioned making a living out of turning the corner, we were discussing the issue of speed aiding in turningthe corner. At least be consistent and don't change the issue. Sorry, but the notion that a 4.4 guy won't turn the corner more than a 4.5 guy is stupid.

These last several posts between us emanate from one sentence by you:

"Big"..."Tall"...blah blah etc.....none of that stuff matters to me"

And that is just ridiculous. Big and tall aren't the alpha and omega of scouting and predicting future success of football players, but to deny their importance is ridiculous. And I've never advocated taking players based solely on size and straight line speed.

Take for instance Louis Oliver. I've seen him play in the swamp and JRS-dude was an animal. The guy was like 6-2, 225, must have run about a 4.4, maybe less than that. Impressive today, more impressive 20 years ago. He slipped to #25 in the 1989 draft and was pissed. Thought he got robbed because Steve Atwater was taken ahead of him. Shula was thrilled to land him at #25- he saw a big as hell, fast as hell safety who was going to light it up in the NFL with his hitting and coverage abilities. But there was a problem, and guess who recognized it before the draft- Joel Buschbaum. Buschbaum saw this big, chiseled, fast as hell safety and saw that he had a major flaw- dude had major wheels but pedestrian quicks. And sure enough, for a decade or so I had to watch Oliver get abused by the smaller and vastly quicker Andre Reed every time we played the Buffalo Bills. It was go time for the Bills when Oliver was covering Reed.

The point is that big and tall do count, but as with the tale of Louis Oliver, they are not the only factors that are important, by a longshot. I want Steve Atwaters, not Louis Olivers. I want Miles Austins, not DHBs.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I'm not denying their importance in the overall evaluation process....I'm denying their importance if he can't play football....

In other words....if he doesn't play football to those specs...

Seriously,what about that isn't sinking in for you?

Do you know what the difference between 4.4 and 4.5 is in turning the corner on an NFL defense? The difference in 1/10 of a second is a guy getting both arms around you to bring you down...and a guy getting both arms around you to bring you down....

The difference in 2/10 of a second could mean a guy only getting one arm around you if he were to meet you at the exact same point....

Take John Wendling for example....a 6-1, 222 pound safety that ran 4.4 at the combine....with a 38 1/2" vertical.......the guy took 2 steps and jumped over a 5'6" high bar....which impressed a lot of scouts...

But they weren't fools.....he didn't have any INT's as a senior....they knew that it didn't translate onto the football field....which is why he fell all the way to the 6th round...

Taylor Mays will go to the combine and blow scouts away with his measurables....his height...weight...straightline speed....etc.....but when they pop in the tape....they're going to be wondering where all that is on the football field....

If you ask me...he looks like a guy who knows he's going to be a millionaire in a few months and doesn't want to get hurt.....what's he going to be like when he's already got it in his pocket?

Give me the 5'11", 200 pounder that knows he's going to be a millionaire in a few months too......but plays every down like it's his last......I don't know any other way to put it....

 

[hoops]

yeah...i'm impressed with gilyard...he's silky smooth

reminds me of desean jackson but with better size

b/t why don't college wrs when they turn to the qb have their hands in better receiving the ball position??? way too much hands down at their midsection when they curl back...i don't get it

benn looks like he's a heck of a downfield blocker but it almost looks like he's going half speed...juice williams does him no favors

 

[jim1]

I'm not denying their importance in the overall evaluation process....I'm denying their importance if he can't play football....

In other words....if he doesn't play football to those specs...

Seriously,what about that isn't sinking in for you?

Do you know what the difference between 4.4 and 4.5 is in turning the corner on an NFL defense? The difference in 1/10 of a second is a guy getting both arms around you to bring you down...and a guy getting both arms around you to bring you down....

The difference in 2/10 of a second could mean a guy only getting one arm around you if he were to meet you at the exact same point....

Take John Wendling for example....a 6-1, 222 pound safety that ran 4.4 at the combine....with a 38 1/2" vertical.......the guy took 2 steps and jumped over a 5'6" high bar....which impressed a lot of scouts...

But they weren't fools.....he didn't have any INT's as a senior....they knew that it didn't translate onto the football field....which is why he fell all the way to the 6th round...

Taylor Mays will go to the combine and blow scouts away with his measurables....his height...weight...straightline speed....etc.....but when they pop in the tape....they're going to be wondering where all that is on the football field....

If you ask me...he looks like a guy who knows he's going to be a millionaire in a few months and doesn't want to get hurt.....what's he going to be like when he's already got it in his pocket?

Give me the 5'11", 200 pounder that knows he's going to be a millionaire in a few months too......but plays every down like it's his last......I don't know any other way to put it....

What isn't sinking in with me? Are you kidding? Yeah, your tour de force of the obvious settled in quite some time ago. The flip side is that guys who play hard and are talented but lack the appropriate size are often filtered out. Same as a high school OL who might be 5-9, 230 and plays his guts out and is strong and quick. But he probably played his last down of football in high school. Or he's going to give it a shot at a very small college. Height and weight do matter when the competition bar is raised.

There are always guys that overcome size obstacles- the Bob Sanders, Darren Sproles of the world. But more often than not it doesn't work out that way. And you have to tip your hat to the guys that overcome the size obstacle- Wes Welker and Davon Bess come to mind, too. Also Doug Flutie. You mentioned Wendling- he must be doing something right, he's still in the NFL. What about all of the great college football players over the years who didn't make it in to the pros because they were too short, too light, not fast enough? How does your philosophy mesh with that? And although i agree with you that straight line speed is not all important, why would you say that it's considered so important to a praospects draft rating?

We're both beating this to a pulp. Round one was Tebow, this is round two. Let's save it for round three, because we're not really getting anywhere on this one. And yes, you can have the last word. Fire away.