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And the screen passes are a product of those weapons. Woods and Lee are dangerous.
Matt Barkley 6 TD clinic against UCLA
- Thread starter LoneyROY7
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ckparrothead
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In this game about 1 in 3 throws were screens but that was more product of the coverage that UCLA was throwing at them. Barkley killed them underneath with hyper accurate passes that allow for run after catch all game, and when UCLA went after him with more aggressive cover three or cover one stuff, he hit them deeper as well. He really put on a clinic. To successfully throw the ball into the end zone 7 times like that (6 TDs, plus a 2 point conversion pass)...against a team that's playing for the Pac-12 title...that's pretty darn good. Especially like the way he moved behind the line of scrimmage and handled pressure.
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UCLA won 5 of 6 games at the Rose Bowl this year too.
I don't know what UCLA was thinking though. You can't give those 2 guys 7-10 yard cushions all game. They'll hit you with those screens all game.
There is no way that he has the same arm as Luck, or Weeden for that matter. I constantly see a wobbly ball that isn't nearly driven as well as Luck or Weeden do. It is not the type arm that I identify with a top 5 pick. Do you need a top of the line arm to succeed in the NFL? No. But to paraphrase Lou Holtz, the swift and the strong don't always win the race, but that's how I'm betting. Maybe he's the next Joe Montana, who knows. Great college QB, great pro, average arm, lasted until the 3rd round of the draft- I'd like to see Montana's scouting report. Nothing about Barkley's arm strikes me as particularly outstanding. I'm more impressed with his decision making and movement skills. I think that he's overrated now, just my opinion.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Brandon Weeden has a much better arm than Andrew Luck but I'd still take Luck.
And no I don't agree with you on your assessment that Barkley "constantly" throws a wobbly ball that "isn't nearly driven as well" as Andrew Luck. You won't find a bigger Luck fan than me out there as I've been talking him up as a #1 overall stud since 2009. But I don't agree with your assessment of Luck's arm being significantly different from Barkley's, and especially don't agree with your insinuation that Luck throws a better ball than Weeden.
I think Barkley has Drew Brees' arm and that's really all you need at the next level. Ask Drew Brees himself. If Barkley's got enough arm to hit the deep ball in stride, to throw the 10 yard out with anticipation and good placement, and to throw the ball 30+ yards while running right or left, then functionally he has everything you need at the next level. Often an arm that is better than that is just window dressing.
---------- Post added at 10:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 AM ----------
Brandon Weeden has a much better arm than Andrew Luck but I'd still take Luck.
And no I don't agree with you on your assessment that Barkley "constantly" throws a wobbly ball that "isn't nearly driven as well" as Andrew Luck. I think you're exaggerating. You won't find a bigger Luck fan than me out there as I've been talking him up as a #1 overall stud since 2009. But I don't agree with your assessment of Luck's arm being significantly different from Barkley's, and especially don't agree with your insinuation that Luck throws a better ball than Weeden.
I think Barkley has Drew Brees' arm and that's really all you need at the next level. Ask Drew Brees himself. If Barkley's got enough arm to hit the deep ball in stride, to throw the 10 yard out with anticipation and good placement, and to throw the ball 30+ yards while running right or left, then functionally he has everything you need at the next level. Often an arm that is better than that is just window dressing.
And no I don't agree with you on your assessment that Barkley "constantly" throws a wobbly ball that "isn't nearly driven as well" as Andrew Luck. You won't find a bigger Luck fan than me out there as I've been talking him up as a #1 overall stud since 2009. But I don't agree with your assessment of Luck's arm being significantly different from Barkley's, and especially don't agree with your insinuation that Luck throws a better ball than Weeden.
I think Barkley has Drew Brees' arm and that's really all you need at the next level. Ask Drew Brees himself. If Barkley's got enough arm to hit the deep ball in stride, to throw the 10 yard out with anticipation and good placement, and to throw the ball 30+ yards while running right or left, then functionally he has everything you need at the next level. Often an arm that is better than that is just window dressing.
---------- Post added at 10:07 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:06 AM ----------
Brandon Weeden has a much better arm than Andrew Luck but I'd still take Luck.
And no I don't agree with you on your assessment that Barkley "constantly" throws a wobbly ball that "isn't nearly driven as well" as Andrew Luck. I think you're exaggerating. You won't find a bigger Luck fan than me out there as I've been talking him up as a #1 overall stud since 2009. But I don't agree with your assessment of Luck's arm being significantly different from Barkley's, and especially don't agree with your insinuation that Luck throws a better ball than Weeden.
I think Barkley has Drew Brees' arm and that's really all you need at the next level. Ask Drew Brees himself. If Barkley's got enough arm to hit the deep ball in stride, to throw the 10 yard out with anticipation and good placement, and to throw the ball 30+ yards while running right or left, then functionally he has everything you need at the next level. Often an arm that is better than that is just window dressing.
I wasn't insinuating that Luck has a better arm than Weeden- Weeden's arm is my favorite in college football. I am saying that I think that Luck has a significantly better arm than Barkley. Every time I see Barkley I see the same thing- a heady, efficient, mobile QB with an average arm. I don't see Barkley's arm as the equal of Brees, at all.
We all have our preferences- I liked Ponder quite a bit last year and I stand by that assessment. I obviously like Weeden quite a bit, and I do like Luck. Even RG III is growing on me, with hesitation. Barkley and Landry Jones just don't do it for me- I look at Barkley throwing the ball and I see a potential difficulty at the next level. Plain and simple, that's what I think. I can't get past Barkley's lack of arm strength/driving ability, and Jones dropping back flat footed and throwing, although statistically effective at the college level, leaves me feeling uninspired. I'd be intrigued with RGIII in rd 2, my preference is Weeden in rounds 1 or 2, and I don't see Luck factoring in the equation. I can live with Barkley, but I'll be less than thrilled. Foles is somewhat intriguing, and as to Tannehill, I haven't seen him play.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
Are there any particular throws you can point to in Andrew Luck that you think show he has a "significantly" better arm? Because I don't see it. I see a little bit better arm, but only marginally so.
hoops
Tua time!
barkleys arm is not an issue...at all
hoops
Tua time!
i think you could make the argument that on some of those 20-25 yard in breaking routes that luck seems to love to throw to whalen so much and luck steps through after he releases the ball the balls got more on it than barkleys...but those throws are more about timing and accuracy than arm strength anyways...timing to throw the ball before the wr comes out of his break etc...
and if you watch enough of barkley you will see that when he needs to he can muscle up and fire the ball...i have seen plenty of evidence of him firing the ball immediately after taking the snap dwn the seam or in the slot and he's got plenty of zip on it...the arms a non issue...he can make every throw required of him at the next level...his arms no worse than christian ponders was on many throws on tape last year...and ponders arm has looked plenty good enough in minnesota
and if you watch enough of barkley you will see that when he needs to he can muscle up and fire the ball...i have seen plenty of evidence of him firing the ball immediately after taking the snap dwn the seam or in the slot and he's got plenty of zip on it...the arms a non issue...he can make every throw required of him at the next level...his arms no worse than christian ponders was on many throws on tape last year...and ponders arm has looked plenty good enough in minnesota
I think that it was against Oregon State, for the purposes of a particular example- a beautiful deep, driven post and some out passes to the flats- driven with force and accuracy. I can't think of any time I've watched him and not thought that he has an excellent arm. It's not that I hate Barkley, the guy has been playing some impressive ball. Ponder for example- that throw on Sunday to Harvin for a TD- that throw tells you something. Weeden- take your pick. Same with Luck. I'm not here to bash on Barkley, but I stand by my view of him- his arm strength gives me pause for concern. It's a good arm- my concern is that it's not a great, top 5 or 10 talent arm. As I've said before, if I'm wrong, all the better. Because there is, of course, a pretty darned good chance that we end up with him.
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All I needed to see to love Barkley's arm was the throw against Colorado where he scrambles out to the right, throws off balance and hits a beautiful pass to Robert Woods. I wanna say it was a 45-yard toss that he threw without having his feet set or shoulders even squared well enough to get that kind of a pass off.
Fair enough. Again, Barkley has made some nice throws. But I think that, when projecting a college QB at the next level, you want to see the ball get there in a hurry. When Barkley is passing against NFL CB's, when his receivers won't be necessarily, significantly better than the CBs they face, as it has been for him in college- that concerns me. All that I can go by is what I see, and kudos to Barkley for picking apart the college defenses that he's faced. But when you look at the top QB's- Rodgers, Brady, Manning, etc.- they drive the ball exceptionally well, get it there in a hurry and accurately- Barkley does seem pretty accurate, I will say that. But I see driving ability in Luck. I see that in Weeden in spades. I see Barkley as a crafty, mobile QB with a good-not great- arm. I'd take him over Landry Jones- I'm warming up to RGIII, but with concerns. I like Luck and especially Weeden markedly more than Barkley, that much is clear. As with most other things, only time will tell how good barkley becomes. And to be more specific about Barkley's arm, the guy has thrown some nice deep balls- but for example the 1st 2 TDs against Oregon I was more impressed with the receivers and their adjustments than Barkley's throws. But at the end of the day, it's the mid range throws that concern me the most with Barkley. Just not driven with authoruty, in my opinion.
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For me, I want someone that can make all the throws, with accuracy and ball placement, preventing turnovers. Matt Barkley has done that on multiple occasions. Even when missing throws, he does so where it won't turn into a mistake. He gives it to either his receiver or nobody at all for the majority. The velocity on the passes to Marqise Lee for 50+ yard touchdowns have been very nice with beautiful ball placement. Marqise Lee is a 'go-getter' at receiver for USC. They love giving him the opportunity to either catch the ball in stride or jump ball for it. That's what a majority of Barkley's throws are.
ckparrothead
Premium Member
What I'm trying to do is get specific. There's enough tape of Luck out there that you should be able to point to specific examples. Take the following game of Andrew Luck's against UCLA:
[video=youtube;vPLNMwv3hHg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPLNMwv3hHg[/video]
I don't see a SINGLE throw on that footage that I have not seen Matt Barkley make with the same pace and accuracy. Do you?
The most impressive throws on that tape happen at 0:07, 0:18, 3:55, 4:05 and 6:25.
The first one he's rolling left and throws a nice little dart up the field accurately. Nice to see when a QB can throw while rolling left. But the throw was certainly nothing amazing, it was only about 9 or 10 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. I've seen Matt Barkley make that throw multiple times, with just as much pace on the ball.
The second one he's rolling to his right and this is a more impressive throw with better pace at about 14 yards beyond the line. But you know what? Seen Matt Barkley make that exact throw, with that exact pace, multiple times.
Some would think the third impressive throw would come at 2:43 but this was really just a simple throw over the middle. There's no special heat on that ball and I've seen even the weaker armed QBs make it and look the same. But at 3:55 you have a throw to the wide side of the field at about 30 yards through the air. Nice flat trajectory, but look where the ball arrives at the receiver's feet, he has to sit down pretty low to catch it. For an impressive throw, it's not really all that impressive.
Then at 4:05, Andrew throws a nice ball at about 33 yards up the middle. This is by no means a 'wow' throw. It really isn't. I've seen Barkley get the same pace on the ball at the same distance.
The fifth and final impressive throw comes at 6:25 on the roll to his right, Andrew throws into a nice tight window at about 20 yards.
But I want you to take a look at some clips from this video:
[video=youtube;jX8PlVYM4GY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX8PlVYM4GY[/video]
The first is at 0:47 in the video. Matt Barkley is rolling to his right, and unloads a 28 yard ball at a dead run into a tight space in coverage. This is a virtually IDENTICAL throw to the one above in Andrew Luck's video at 0:18. Same distance, same leverage, same tight window, exact same pace on the ball. It's actually more impressive than the throw Luck makes at 6:25 for the touchdown.
The next Barkley throw I want you to look at is at 1:44 in the Barkley video above. This time he's rolling left, much like Luck did at 0:07 of his UCLA video. Barkley throws this ball in a zip line about 29 yards through the air. This is a MORE impressive throw than the one Luck had at 0:07 in his UCLA video.
You go to 1:58 in the following video, you get Barkley throwing up the field to an open man in stride, and it's about the same distance as the Luck throw at 4:05, has the exact same pace on the ball.
[video=youtube;_djxg-xSg0Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_djxg-xSg0Q[/video]
On the other hand, go to 3:36 in the Andrew Luck video and take a look at the ball placement on that fade throw to I believe that's Griff Whalen. Look where that ball is placed. The ball was placed in a spot where the defender had the best shot at it, either the defender was going to catch it or nobody was.
Now fast forward to 7:51 of the video quoted by the original poster at the top of the thread, with the close up replay at 8:00. This is the same throw, to the same defense, even to the same side of the field, ball was lined up on the near hash so the play had the same spacing. Look at the ball placement on the two fades. Was the coverage any worse for Barkley than on the pass Luck threw? No. It was tight on both throws. But look where Barkley placed the ball right on that outside shoulder in the ideal spot.
I'm not saying Barkley consistently throws that ball better but this is the same defense, same spacing, same throw, and Luck's throw was inferior to Barkley's in every way imaginable, resulting in a near interception for Luck versus a touchdown for Barkley.
So again, I'm going throw by throw, and not seeing this exaggerated "significantly" better arm that Andrew Luck supposedly has. I think it's maybe just a little better, but I also think that Barkley's release is more versatile, which is a function of arm strength too.
[video=youtube;vPLNMwv3hHg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPLNMwv3hHg[/video]
I don't see a SINGLE throw on that footage that I have not seen Matt Barkley make with the same pace and accuracy. Do you?
The most impressive throws on that tape happen at 0:07, 0:18, 3:55, 4:05 and 6:25.
The first one he's rolling left and throws a nice little dart up the field accurately. Nice to see when a QB can throw while rolling left. But the throw was certainly nothing amazing, it was only about 9 or 10 yards beyond the line of scrimmage. I've seen Matt Barkley make that throw multiple times, with just as much pace on the ball.
The second one he's rolling to his right and this is a more impressive throw with better pace at about 14 yards beyond the line. But you know what? Seen Matt Barkley make that exact throw, with that exact pace, multiple times.
Some would think the third impressive throw would come at 2:43 but this was really just a simple throw over the middle. There's no special heat on that ball and I've seen even the weaker armed QBs make it and look the same. But at 3:55 you have a throw to the wide side of the field at about 30 yards through the air. Nice flat trajectory, but look where the ball arrives at the receiver's feet, he has to sit down pretty low to catch it. For an impressive throw, it's not really all that impressive.
Then at 4:05, Andrew throws a nice ball at about 33 yards up the middle. This is by no means a 'wow' throw. It really isn't. I've seen Barkley get the same pace on the ball at the same distance.
The fifth and final impressive throw comes at 6:25 on the roll to his right, Andrew throws into a nice tight window at about 20 yards.
But I want you to take a look at some clips from this video:
[video=youtube;jX8PlVYM4GY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jX8PlVYM4GY[/video]
The first is at 0:47 in the video. Matt Barkley is rolling to his right, and unloads a 28 yard ball at a dead run into a tight space in coverage. This is a virtually IDENTICAL throw to the one above in Andrew Luck's video at 0:18. Same distance, same leverage, same tight window, exact same pace on the ball. It's actually more impressive than the throw Luck makes at 6:25 for the touchdown.
The next Barkley throw I want you to look at is at 1:44 in the Barkley video above. This time he's rolling left, much like Luck did at 0:07 of his UCLA video. Barkley throws this ball in a zip line about 29 yards through the air. This is a MORE impressive throw than the one Luck had at 0:07 in his UCLA video.
You go to 1:58 in the following video, you get Barkley throwing up the field to an open man in stride, and it's about the same distance as the Luck throw at 4:05, has the exact same pace on the ball.
[video=youtube;_djxg-xSg0Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_djxg-xSg0Q[/video]
On the other hand, go to 3:36 in the Andrew Luck video and take a look at the ball placement on that fade throw to I believe that's Griff Whalen. Look where that ball is placed. The ball was placed in a spot where the defender had the best shot at it, either the defender was going to catch it or nobody was.
Now fast forward to 7:51 of the video quoted by the original poster at the top of the thread, with the close up replay at 8:00. This is the same throw, to the same defense, even to the same side of the field, ball was lined up on the near hash so the play had the same spacing. Look at the ball placement on the two fades. Was the coverage any worse for Barkley than on the pass Luck threw? No. It was tight on both throws. But look where Barkley placed the ball right on that outside shoulder in the ideal spot.
I'm not saying Barkley consistently throws that ball better but this is the same defense, same spacing, same throw, and Luck's throw was inferior to Barkley's in every way imaginable, resulting in a near interception for Luck versus a touchdown for Barkley.
So again, I'm going throw by throw, and not seeing this exaggerated "significantly" better arm that Andrew Luck supposedly has. I think it's maybe just a little better, but I also think that Barkley's release is more versatile, which is a function of arm strength too.
Locke
They looked like strong hands.
Boom. Roasted.