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He did a lot of driving the ball during his first two years from what I remember. His touch is what makes him so special. He places the ball so well.
Matt Barkley 6 TD clinic against UCLA
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Pachyderm_Wave
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I didn't really want to get into this one again, but I'll say it again... I have no idea what anyone is looking at when they question Matt Barkley's arm. Secondly, I have no idea how someone can question Matt Barkley's arm, and praise Andrew Luck's in the same breath. There's not a nickel's worth of difference between the two arms. In fact, I'll give the edge to Barkley in terms of fitting throws into tight windows. Weeden has the edge here on both of 'em.
Barkley makes throws from the far hash to the opposite sideline for odd number routes (out breaking routes) with no trouble whatsoever.
He's delivering the ball out of 3, 5, and 7 step drops with no hitch in this offense. The bolded words are significant in that that means is he's not required to hitch at the top of his drop and take a gather step, if he did it would throw off the timing of the offense. Hitching allows a quarterback to get his lower body more involved in the throw in order to muster more velocity by moving towards the intended target.
Barkley's arm is a notch better than Drew Brees' arm was when he came out of Purdue, and also Tom Brady's arm coming out of Michigan. You build arm strength through reps. Thousands of them. It took Brees 5 years to get his arm strength up, and it continues to improve in increments. Tom Brady's arm strength continued to improve in increments every year through reps. It's also why Weeden's ball is little hotter, his arm is more conditioned from throwing reps, including throwing a baseball.
Arm strength matters on a few throws a game where you're going to be forced to throw the ball into tight windows in the NFL... about 4 or 5 times a game in the NFL. It's the willingness and confidence in your arm to do it that matters just as much as the ability to do it.
Matt Barkley's arm is fine, as is his confidence in it.
Barkley makes throws from the far hash to the opposite sideline for odd number routes (out breaking routes) with no trouble whatsoever.
He's delivering the ball out of 3, 5, and 7 step drops with no hitch in this offense. The bolded words are significant in that that means is he's not required to hitch at the top of his drop and take a gather step, if he did it would throw off the timing of the offense. Hitching allows a quarterback to get his lower body more involved in the throw in order to muster more velocity by moving towards the intended target.
Barkley's arm is a notch better than Drew Brees' arm was when he came out of Purdue, and also Tom Brady's arm coming out of Michigan. You build arm strength through reps. Thousands of them. It took Brees 5 years to get his arm strength up, and it continues to improve in increments. Tom Brady's arm strength continued to improve in increments every year through reps. It's also why Weeden's ball is little hotter, his arm is more conditioned from throwing reps, including throwing a baseball.
Arm strength matters on a few throws a game where you're going to be forced to throw the ball into tight windows in the NFL... about 4 or 5 times a game in the NFL. It's the willingness and confidence in your arm to do it that matters just as much as the ability to do it.
Matt Barkley's arm is fine, as is his confidence in it.
Opinions obviously vary on Barkley. The guy makes some pretty darned good throws. Personally, I thought that this review had merit:
Release/arm strength
Luck: (2) He displays good overall mechanics, with a smooth, compact, quick release. He tends to pat the ball before delivering it, a la Drew Bledsoe. He has upper-echelon arm strength, with very good zip on deep balls that he can fit nicely into spots. Against Duke, I saw him throw a 20-yard comeback off his back foot across the field. You don't see a lot of QBs make that throw. Barkley definitely can't make that throw.
Barkley (3): This is Barkley's downfall, where we have him rated the lowest. He has the ability to change release points, but his arm strength is adequate to maybe slightly above average. He doesn't have the prototypical ability to drive the ball downfield, like Joe Flacco or Landry Jones. His deep ball tends to hang up there. He's a guy we believe is a West Coast system-type guy.
Edge: Luck
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/...ord-andrew-luck-vs-usc-matt-barkley-tale-tape
I simply wish that he had a little more zip on the ball. Other than that, the guy is a baller. Simple point, and I don't think that I have much else to say on the subject.
Pachyderm_Wave
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Opinions will always vary. I don't know who Kevin Weidl is, but I couldn't disagree more with this particular assessment he's put forth here comparing their arm strength. It's Luck deep ball that floats, not Barkley's. It's what lead to his first pass of the game being picked off against Washington State. It was under thrown because it was fluttering in the air.
Barkley makes more deep throws downfield to receivers outside the numbers and down the sidelines. Luck doesn't throw a lot of deep balls that aren't down the middle of the field (between the hashmarks) because Stanford doesn't have the skill at WR. They're running a 3-TE set, and the TE's are usually running wide open off play action when Luck completes a deep pass down the seam.
As for his observation on how Luck tends to pat the football... well that's part of playing in an offense where you're taking a hitch step upon completion of your drop. Barkley doesn't pat the football because the ball has to be out when his back foot hits. Luck is allowed to hitch and regather his feet while going through his progressions. Patting the football is a natural aspect of being coached to keep two hands on the football at all times as part of your fundamentals.
I don't find his assessment accurate at all.
Take a look at Barkley's first two TD passes against Oregon. They floated, and his receiveers bailed him out. Not atypical. As to Luck floating the ball more, I disagree. Not sure where you came up with that one. As to your hitch comment, Barkley tends to roll out a lot, and throws well on the run. But there are times when he drops back, sets and fires. And I see the same thing- good passer, accurate, but not great zip.
As to the ball pat- some do, some don't, I don't see the relevance. Elway patted the ball all the time if I recall correctly, even on the run. I don't think that Marino did, and he dropped back with a hitch. For what it's worth as a kid I always patted the ball, still do on the rare ocassion that I throw one. Just a habit.
Pachyderm_Wave
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There is no relevance to patting the football if you're evaluating a quarterback, which was my point. It's a function of the type of fundamentals you're coached up to have depending on who's coaching you. You're not going to see a scrambler who likes to take off holding the football with one hand waist high while he's running patting the football while standing in the pocket going through progressions.
I don't see 'great zip' on Barkley's throws, or Luck's. I've never heard a single analyst, draftnik, announcer, or internet GM site any of Luck's throws as having 'great zip', it's simply not there. You're the first.
Every throw is touch pass with arc, very much like Chad Pennington. Phil Simms barely even touched on it with his "I don't see big time NFL throws with Luck" comments.
Hell, I haven't seen 'great zip' on a quarterback recently other than Ryan Mallett. However, I've seen plenty with enough zip.
I don't see 'great zip' on Barkley's throws, or Luck's. I've never heard a single analyst, draftnik, announcer, or internet GM site any of Luck's throws as having 'great zip', it's simply not there. You're the first.
Every throw is touch pass with arc, very much like Chad Pennington. Phil Simms barely even touched on it with his "I don't see big time NFL throws with Luck" comments.
Hell, I haven't seen 'great zip' on a quarterback recently other than Ryan Mallett. However, I've seen plenty with enough zip.
hoops
Tua time!
graham harrell of texas tech years back??? that's what i call not having an nfl arm...
and i remember that video ck posted of ponder throwing the ball while falling out of bounds pretty much across his body 50 plus yards on a rope...that was a fantastic throw...
and i remember that video ck posted of ponder throwing the ball while falling out of bounds pretty much across his body 50 plus yards on a rope...that was a fantastic throw...
Pachyderm_Wave
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By the way, Barkley's 2nd TD pass against Oregon was a simple 12 yard fade in the endzone against single coverage. That's not a 'zip' throw. It was thrown perfectly by Barkley while the defender still had his back turned.
It's the same throw Weeden and Blackmon execute time and time again in the redzone.
It's the same throw Weeden and Blackmon execute time and time again in the redzone.
Release/arm strength
Luck: (2) He displays good overall mechanics, with a smooth, compact, quick release. He tends to pat the ball before delivering it, a la Drew Bledsoe. He has upper-echelon arm strength, with very good zip on deep balls that he can fit nicely into spots. Against Duke, I saw him throw a 20-yard comeback off his back foot across the field. You don't see a lot of QBs make that throw. Barkley definitely can't make that throw.
Barkley (3): This is Barkley's downfall, where we have him rated the lowest. He has the ability to change release points, but his arm strength is adequate to maybe slightly above average. He doesn't have the prototypical ability to drive the ball downfield, like Joe Flacco or Landry Jones. His deep ball tends to hang up there. He's a guy we believe is a West Coast system-type guy. Edge: Luck
http://espn.go.com/los-angeles/ncf/...ord-andrew-luck-vs-usc-matt-barkley-tale-tape
So at least I'm not the first. Maybe 30 more seconds on google will uncover more, who knows. That's just a guy's opinion, granted.
Watch the film posted on this thread- Luck's arm is fine. Again, I especially like his throws to the flat and deep posts. Focus on the outs- no comparison to Pennington. And to say that he arcs every pass (see the deep posts) is just plain wrong. And if you haven't seen an arm with what seems to be your new favorite word, "zip", since Ryan Mallett, then obvioulsy Brandon Weeden is slipping your mind and yes, Weeden's arm is better than Luck's.
As to Barkley's 1st two TD passes against Oregon, I didn't care for either one and yes, one was shorter than the other. His receiver bailed hiim out on both occasions. If the DB turned, as he had the opportunity to do so with only the red zone to cover, that could have been trouble. I didn't like that throw at all, and due credit for the adjustment and aggressive move should go to the WR.
As to patting the ball, I always patted it, and more relevantly if you want to see a QB that pats the ball on rollouts and in the pcket, revisit some film of John Elway.
Here, this one took about 12 seconds to find:
“Get out of bounds, Andrew.” That’s Harbaugh, offering advice seven months after the fact as Luck runs toward the sideline against Arizona State. Harbaugh stops the video. “Is there anybody open here?” he asks. Obviously not. There seem to be six or eight defenders chasing Luck and another six or eight around each receiver. The smart play for Luck is to keep running out of bounds. Instead, he ****s his arm ... “Nooo!” Harbaugh says ... and whips the ball across his body, across the field right to left, from the 25 to the 5. The ball zips as if on a wire. Receiver Ryan Whalen snatches it ... “Yes! Good job, Andrew!” Harbaugh says.
Read more: http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-fo...luck-the-next-great-quarterback#ixzz1f9nsdA9g
There may not have been a more complete prospect coming out of college football over the last decade than Andrew Luck. He has all the physical tools, the mental makeup, and all the intangibles teams look for in a franchise quarterback. At 6-4 and 240 pounds, he has prototypical size. He possesses sound mechanics, has a strong arm, and can make all the throws with zip on the ball. He is intelligent and decisive in his reads and displays a very quick release. He also has great touch on screens and other passes that require finesse.
http://football.about.com/od/nflplayerprofiles/p/Andrew-Luck.htm
These are all just words, just some guys' opinions, but as you wanted to see them... And Mel Kiper, for what it's worth, questions Barkley's arm strength.
But all of that- whatever. I go by what I see. And I think that your comment that Luck arcs all of his throws is ridiculous. I think that he does throw a commendable ball, with "zip", on his outs. I think that he throws a good deep ball with authority and simply put, has a better arm than Barkley, not as good as Weeden though.
As to Phil Simms- I like him as an analyst quite a bit. His criticism of Luck gave me pause to think, but I call them like I see them, and I think that Luck has a very solid arm. To say that Luck can throw with touch when called for is accurate- for you to compare his arm to Chad Pennington's is curious, to put it kindly.
I looked it up- Harrell went undrafted in 2009, wasn't all that long ago.
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I believe there was a touchdown throw to Robert Woods against Minnesota where Barkley was set at the 50 yardline, on the right side hash marks. He launches it across the field to the left side, about 4 or 5 yards deep into the end zone and it looked easy. That's beautiful arm strength when you take into account the 54 or 55 yards down field, then the amount across the field.
No doubt Barkley has made plenty of good throws. But if you look at the body of work, and I can only speak for the throws of both that I've seen, Luck's arm is clearly better. I go by what I see, imo the right way to do it. But that being said, there was very little analysts' criticism of Luck's arm before Simms laid into him, and quite a bit of criticism/concern as to Barkley's arm strength, especially before his current hot streak. Take it for what it's worth, but I do find that to be curious.
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I just am not seeing what you are. Agree to disagree.
I see a different kind of offense with different kinds of throws, but I won't say that Matt Barkley can't make the same throws that Andrew Luck can. I've watched every game Matt Barkley has played at USC...his throws are constantly impressing me, even during his freshman year.
I see a different kind of offense with different kinds of throws, but I won't say that Matt Barkley can't make the same throws that Andrew Luck can. I've watched every game Matt Barkley has played at USC...his throws are constantly impressing me, even during his freshman year.
I think arm strength is one of the most overrated aspects of playing QB. Plenty of guys who have great zip on the ball coming out of college don't make it in the pros. They rely too much on their arm strength and don't spend enough time in college working on reading coverages and hitting the open guy. Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers, and Tom Brady all had questions about their arm strength coming out of college and they made it work for them in their early years. As they got older and matured more physically, they gained more arm strength and now can put zip on the ball while they mastered the art of reading defenses and learning to put the correct touch on certain throws.
Living in the west coast, I've been able to watch a lot of Luck and Barkley. Luck has the stronger arm, but I don't think it's a huge difference. Barkley's arm reminds me of Brees and Matt Ryan. They won't wow you with just the sheer ability to stand and throw bullets in workouts, but in games they can make all the necessary throws. Weeden has a great arm, but I'm not sold on him at all. I'll admit I've not seen a whole lot of him, but I watched the game against Texas and he looked like a backup NFL QB to me. He's fully developed from a physical standpoint and I don't see him being in the class of Luck,Barkley, and RGIII.
I have Luck above Barkley because of his athleticism and he's physically a little more impressive. He has a 2 inch height advantage on Barkley and has a little more zip on the ball than Barkley, but I think they are REALLY close.
I've a got a question for CK and all the other people who said they have Luck above Barkley for Luck's pre-snap recognition and mental ability though. Do you guys not think that Barkley has the capability? Luck might be able to get to a Peyton Manning level for controlling a game, but what if Barkley can get to a Tom Brady/Aaron Rodgers level? From all accounts Barkley is a very smart kid and a student of the game. He's also been in college one less year than Luck. If he came back to USC next year and displayed more of the pre-snap ability would you guys rate him above Luck since thats what sets them apart in your opinions? I was just curious about this after reading some of your guys posts. Thanks
Living in the west coast, I've been able to watch a lot of Luck and Barkley. Luck has the stronger arm, but I don't think it's a huge difference. Barkley's arm reminds me of Brees and Matt Ryan. They won't wow you with just the sheer ability to stand and throw bullets in workouts, but in games they can make all the necessary throws. Weeden has a great arm, but I'm not sold on him at all. I'll admit I've not seen a whole lot of him, but I watched the game against Texas and he looked like a backup NFL QB to me. He's fully developed from a physical standpoint and I don't see him being in the class of Luck,Barkley, and RGIII.
I have Luck above Barkley because of his athleticism and he's physically a little more impressive. He has a 2 inch height advantage on Barkley and has a little more zip on the ball than Barkley, but I think they are REALLY close.
I've a got a question for CK and all the other people who said they have Luck above Barkley for Luck's pre-snap recognition and mental ability though. Do you guys not think that Barkley has the capability? Luck might be able to get to a Peyton Manning level for controlling a game, but what if Barkley can get to a Tom Brady/Aaron Rodgers level? From all accounts Barkley is a very smart kid and a student of the game. He's also been in college one less year than Luck. If he came back to USC next year and displayed more of the pre-snap ability would you guys rate him above Luck since thats what sets them apart in your opinions? I was just curious about this after reading some of your guys posts. Thanks