McClain vs Spikes | Page 4 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

McClain vs Spikes

I guarantee that no team in the NFL will take Spikes off their board due to the eye gouging incident.

One of the most overblown incidents I've seen this year. And I hate the Gators, for the record.
 
I guarantee that no team in the NFL will take Spikes off their board due to the eye gouging incident.

One of the most overblown incidents I've seen this year. And I hate the Gators, for the record.

LOL get real ,No way you can prove that Spikes is off some teams boards or not.

Their are alot of teams that don't like or draft PUNKS and don't like or draft people with such bad judgement and that would do such a dumb thing when he should of known the world was watching.

We all know you "hate the Gators" but your also a HUGE Spikes fan.
 
LOL get real ,No way you can prove that Spikes is off some teams boards or not.

Their are alot of teams that don't like or draft PUNKS and don't like or draft people with such bad judgement and that would do such a dumb thing when he should of known the world was watching.

That kind of crap happens all the time. He just happened to get caught on video. A lot of coaches even like that stuff. It's just an annoyance, these players aren't necessarily trying to hurt one another. They just get under each others' skin.

I can't prove that teams didn't take him off their board because of the eye gouging thing, but I know with 100% certainty that you will never, ever prove that a single team took him off their board because of that incident. Never. Not one team.

We all know you "hate the Gators" but your also a HUGE Spikes fan.

Which perhaps should tell you just how good Spikes looked to my eyes when you consider that my becoming infatuated with him as a prospect in the first place was less likely due to my dislike for the Gators.
 
That kind of crap happens all the time. He just happened to get caught on video. A lot of coaches even like that stuff. It's just an annoyance, these players aren't necessarily trying to hurt one another. They just get under each others' skin.

I can't prove that teams didn't take him off their board because of the eye gouging thing, but I know with 100% certainty that you will never, ever prove that a single team took him off their board because of that incident. Never. Not one team.



Which perhaps should tell you just how good Spikes looked to my eyes when you consider that my becoming infatuated with him as a prospect in the first place was less likely due to my dislike for the Gators.

At this point were just talking to talk cuzz, i think he's a top 25 player just not top 15.

That may happen alot BUT he's the only player in my 30 years of watching football that was so dumb to do it in the open like that.

Again that shows he's a punk and not very bright and has very bad judgement skills to do that in the open so everyone could see ....................and their are teams that will not draft guys who do that, and that's just common sense, so theirs no need for me to prove it.
 
well,i was doing some thinking last night about both these players,and i'll be honest,i've never watched McClain play...what i know about him is what i've read in here,football mags,and stats i've read on him...now i have watched Spikes play,and the guy's a baller...i've seen him make hard hitting tackles,tackles for losses,i've seen him get sacks,and INT's,which he's returned for TD's...now here's my thing about these 2...i know,or i'm pretty damn certain that McClain can play in a 3-4 Defense,being how he plays in Sabans 3-4 4-3 hybrid,but....if we end up drafting Spikes...can he make the transition to a 3-4? does he have the smarts to do that,or is he better suited for a 4-3? also...who's the more all around complete versatile ILB,and who'd be better suited for us?...just some thoughts i had last night that i wanted to share with my fellow phin fans while they're still fresh in my mind...
 
well,i was doing some thinking last night about both these players,and i'll be honest,i've never watched McClain play...what i know about him is what i've read in here,football mags,and stats i've read on him...now i have watched Spikes play,and the guy's a baller...i've seen him make hard hitting tackles,tackles for losses,i've seen him get sacks,and INT's,which he's returned for TD's...now here's my thing about these 2...i know,or i'm pretty damn certain that McClain can play in a 3-4 Defense,being how he plays in Sabans 3-4 4-3 hybrid,but....if we end up drafting Spikes...can he make the transition to a 3-4? does he have the smarts to do that,or is he better suited for a 4-3? also...who's the more all around complete versatile ILB,and who'd be better suited for us?...just some thoughts i had last night that i wanted to share with my fellow phin fans while they're still fresh in my mind...

the gators played a 3-3-5 on defense so spikes will have no problem playing in a 3-4. not to mention the fact the guy is 6'3" and almost 260 lbs - he's built for the 3-4.
 
I really want McClain but I doubt he's there and if Spikes happens to be it would be real tough for us to pass. I could see if J.Hughes or maybe a top FS is still available that we go in a different direction but I do believe Spikes will be the pick.
 
Well, I was going to wait for a big rollout of some sort for this stuff but I'll just go ahead and link you guys.

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miJwMCgaxKo

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5voTSl9uEI

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

BTW, Universal Draft is the draft evaluation website that myself, Boomer and Conuficus work on.
 
Well, I was going to wait for a big rollout of some sort for this stuff but I'll just go ahead and link you guys.

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miJwMCgaxKo

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5voTSl9uEI

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

BTW, Universal Draft is the draft evaluation website that myself, Boomer and Conuficus work on.


Several things that I have previously mentioned about both linebackers are clearly evident in this footage...

First....I don't see how anyone could watch both of these players in coverage and honestly come away with the observation that Spikes is better than McClain in coverage......McClain is very assignment sound in his responsibilities and has keen awareness....has a knack for tipping passes and/or just being in the right place....and shows good technique in man coverage...

Spikes almost looks to be playing a "spy" type role in mostly in coverage...staying close to the LOS scrimmage and reading the QB's eyes...waiting to jump up in the air and snag/tip the ball in the quarterbacks passing lane.....and was knocked flat on his *** on one play when he tried to knock the TE off his route....

As far as block shedding....McClain disengages from blocks with ease...you cannot block him and keep him blocked...especially at the second level.....which you can with Spikes (see the long screen pass to Ingram,etc.)

Spikes takes on blocks and fights THROUGH them better.....but often neutralizes himself by doing this....likes to take on blocks with his shoulder...but many times uses the wrong shoulder and takes himself out of the play....attitude and physicality are a plus...

Spikes is a very effective blitzer...which is due primarily to the way he fights through blocks at the LOS....McClain would rather go around the block on a blitz as opposed to fighting through it...which in turn keeps him free to remain in the play and chase down a ball carrier....

Spikes is a more aggressive blitzer...McClain is appears more ready to "react".....which IMO can be attributed to playing 2 gaps in Saban's scheme..

McClain is clearly faster and plays better sideline to sideline....and makes more solo tackles...Spikes likes to clean up on an already "tackled" ballcarrier for lack of a better term.....

Malzahn did a good job in the Auburn game against McClain by not only using misdirection to get him flowing in one direction...but also sending a guy on a pass route to "threaten" McClain's zone....and sneaking a guy out of the backfield, etc. on the backside to keep McClain from being able to run and make plays...

Good stuff...
 
wow...that's good stuff ck

watching that mcclain doesn't play as physical as i thought...doesn't play as physical as his measurables would suggest

i like the way he flows down the los though and i agree with slimm when he says mcclain shows better awareness and i think is more effective in coverage than spikes...i also think mcclain sheds/gets off of blockers better than spikes...an awful lot of spikes getting locked up by a lineman and driven out of the play or never getting off the block

i also like mcclains speed but i'd like to see him take on blockers with more physicality...an awful lot of finesse on that footage you posted

spikes is more physical and shows a better motor especially when in pursuit of the ball down field...mcclain at times looks a little bit like he's going half speed when the ball is already by him in pursuit

i think the upside has to go to mcclain though...but now i see why ireland told me spikes was a "physical player" and i do like how spikes attacks the play when it's in front of him...

please keep that kind of stuff coming...
 
And of the two completely differing opinions, hooshoops is the winner.

Spikes is definitely better at reading the QB's eyes. That's not even a question. He's also much, much better as a blitzer. Also not even close to a question. Also the much more physical player. Also has a higher motor. Also Spikes gets off blocks much more consistently. I'm not even sure how anyone could come away watching the two and think otherwise.

And lastly, when you really watch a bunch of Rolondo McClain and a bunch of Brandon Spikes, what really strikes you is the discipline of the players surrounding them. Nick Saban once said about Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor that he would play a defense that is designed to let the two biggest playmakers (Zach and JT) make plays. Everyone else said Zach couldn't cut it in Nick's pseudo 3-4 defense. Then, when they actually played, Zach had statistically two of the finest years he's had in the pros. Afterwards Zach said he found that in Nick's scheme, he was way more protected than he had been in Wannstedt's schemes.

The defense was literally designed to free Zach up to the ball to make plays. What strikes me about the Bama defense is this defense is DEFINITELY designed to free McClain to the ball so he can make a play. You watch his defenders funnel the ball toward him, seal the edge, tie up blockers, etc. It was hard to find footage, at some points, of Rolondo McClain having to get off a block in order to make the play.

On the other hand, watch Florida, and you see a defense that is built much differently. On a defense, some guys are played in positions that are meant to disrupt, and some guys are played in positions that are meant to clean up. Brandon Spikes is definitely a guy that is put in position to disrupt. I think that's a position that is more kin to what Miami currently plays.
 
i don't necessarily think that spikes gets off blockers all that effectively...i agree with slimm that he likes to drive the shoulder into the oncoming blocker but i don't really see him getting off blocks once engaged and in some of those clips i see him getting driven completely out of the play and never disengaging...

but i do agree that there's an awful lot of footage of mcclain roaming freely with no traffic to have to work through and not a whole lot of guys getting to the second level that he has to shed but for my eyes when someone does get to him he seems to get off the block easier and doesn't seem to take himself out of as many plays as spikes...

and i absolutely agree that spikes is the more effective blitzer...

one more thing...i absolutely trust mcclain more to maintain his responsibilities whether it be in coverage or as a run defender...i can see spikes being more of a freelance player but spikes may well be the bigger playmaker of the 2

and we really need a playmaker at ilb
 
I have to fully disagree when it comes to getting off blocks. I watch the two sections side by side and in Rolondo McClain I see a guy that is very inconsistent in dealing with traffic. All too often he either waits for the blocker to deal the first blow, or throttles down and doesn't try and get off the block to make a play on the ball.

You can tell that the guy is just not as comfortable dealing with blockers. He's got a ton of physical ability, and so very often he's got his eyes on the ball instead of on the blockers, and he just feels his way through the blocks, reacting and using his strength, hands and feet to get off the block and get to the ball. The problem? You can't get away with that s much in the pros. You have to be aware of everything, both the ball and the blockers, and you have to have a plan for defeating blocks. You can't just wait for them to get into your body and then use your athleticism to get off the block. I say he's uncomfortable with blockers because on the occasions when he has to look at the blocker and figure out how to deal with him, he's highly indecisive and very uncomfortable.

Now, I'm not saying Brandon Spikes doesn't have his kinks. Against Bama he seemed to care more about dealing the blow to the blocker than about where the ball was, on at least two occasions. The announcer actually praised him on one but I thought Spikes should have ducked for the play on the ball instead of overshooting to hit a blocker.

Here are some examples of what I'm talking about with McClain. Fast forward to about 4:20 in the first McClain video, go High Def, and I'll take you through.

Play 1: If you watch at the end, he's much more absorbed in dealing the final blow to #5 than getting off to make a play on the ball.

Play 2: No blockers actually look for him on this one, he does an OK job fighting through traffic to push the ball. This play probably shouldn't be in here, some of these plays are a little bit filler simply because watching McClain play you don't find all that many instances of him having to fight blocks to the ball.

Play 3: He waits for the blocker to come in on him and make first contact, barely extending his arms in front of him.

Play 4: Again he waits for the OL get completely into his body for a bear hug before disengaging.

Play 5: This time he does an excellent job of moving his feet and extending his arms to prevent the block from ever forming.

Play 6: This is as much a confusing choice as one of the aforementioned Spikes plays, he gets into the hole and opts to hit the guard rather than hit the ball. The guard wasn't aware of him until just before McClain hit him, so he could have gone for the ball.

Play 7: He moved his way into the action instead of waiting, he just got tied up...his plan for getting through the blockers was ineffective.

Play 8: Truly confusing, obviously the receiver is running a pick route, but either he doesn't recognize it or the receiver is his long lost cousin and he really, really, really wanted to give him a bear hug to tell him how much he missed him. Sarcasm aside, another example of letting the blocker get into him instead of having a plan.

Play 9: Another good job of moving his feet into the block and extending his arms to get around it, all while keeping an eye on the ball. Very nice work.

Play 10: He does an good job here, using his feet to make sure the OL doesn't have a clean path on him, and using his hands to disengage.

Play 11: Stays tied up with the blocker for the entire play and then some. Shows good strength throwing the blocker to the ground after the play but what good did that do?

Play 12: An example of what I was talking about happens when he has to look at a blocker and plan how to defeat him. He decides to juke the block, but loses sight of the ball as he decided on his plan. His juke took him out of contention on the play and then he fell down, showing a little discomfort with heavy traffic.

Play 13: This is a perfect example of what he can expect in the pros if he keeps waiting for the blocks to come into him first before doing anything. He's not delivering the first blow, he's barely getting his arms up before the blocker gets into him. As a result, he's tied up indefinitely with the guard while the ball goes god knows where.

Play 14: Another example of waiting for the blockers to deal him blows and just using his size and athleticism to absorb the blows and move on while he keeps his eye on the ball.

Play 15: This is an awareness and negotiation of traffic issue, he isn't aware of the blocker to his side and can't negotiate through the bodies, falls down.

Play 16: He definitely delivers the blow this time, which is good, but in doing so he loses the ball.

Play 17: Mostly he just takes a bad angle to the ball, here...which is a separate issue.

Play 18: Does a pretty good job in this one stepping up to the blow, stoning the blocker and keeping an eye on the ball, an effective bottle cap.

Play 19: Heads into this block completely flat footed. Predictably gets tied up while the ball goes elsewhere.

Play 20: He moved into the block and extended his hands, he covered the outside lane and when Tebow cut inside he had no choice but to try and fight through the block and he fought with strength but just couldn't get by it. My one complaint is he lost sight of the ball while he engaged the blocker and he throttled down, kept his arms engaged while the ball went right under his nose at the end.

Play 21: Not a bad job here, filling the gap and tying up the fullback, forcing the ball elsewhere. Problem is, the fullback got the better of him and eventually knocked him to the ground. Again, not moving his feet enough.

Play 22: Another example of an almost complete non-willingness to use his hands to avoid the block. This block wouldn't look out of place if they were two mountain rams butting horns to fight for dominance, but using your hands avoids getting you tied up like this.

Play 23: Again, very slow to recognize the pick route, hesitating into paralysis while the pick develops. Obviously this is something Houston Nutt identified in his game and decided to use to his advantage in this game as it's happened a few times.

Play 24: While he's still not using his hands and arms adequately, at least on this one he didn't get caught flat-footed by the block and was able to have success bouncing off it toward the ball.

Play 25: How did you get blocked out of making this play Rolondo? I don't know, sir. Where are your hands? Down here at my waist. Is that where they should be? No, sir. End of lesson.

Play 26: No complaints here. He had to fight through a lot of trash to try getting to the ball and he kept his feet moving, his arms extended, and he used his hands to move beyond blockers.

Play 27: Does a good job, again, keeping his arms extended and not giving anything on the blocker. The ball sort of walks into Rolondo, but you can't fault him for that. One does wonder what would have happened if the ball went to McClain's left, would he have gotten off the block?

Play 28: Barely belongs in this section, I'll be honest there weren't that many plays where blockers got a good look at Rolondo and then engaged him, so this play is in here mostly to fill out the section as all he had to do was dodge a speed bump.

Now, I could be JUST as critical of Brandon Spikes...and indeed, I am...but the fact of the matter is when I do the same exercise I find that Spikes more consistently deals the blow, keeps his feet moving, keeps eyes on both the blocker and the ball before the block, etc.
 
Just so you don't think I'm being unfair, here's a critique of Spikes' tape.


Play 1: Has his feet moving and uses his arms before the block, on the move.

Play 2: Same thing as McClain, doesn't get his arms up to keep the blocker off his body. He's got his eyes on the ball, not dealing with the blocker properly.

Play 3: This one still confuses me. He does everything proper from the standpoint of handling the blocker, delivering the blow, using his hands, keeping on the move, etc...and he's effectively setting the edge of the defense. But, at the expense of straight up choosing not to make a play on the ball carrier? This kind of shows his role in the defense a little bit. He's more of a disrupter than a collector of tackles.

Play 4: I didn't fault Rolondo for doing this and I won't fault Brandon for it, either. He moved beyond the block and into a gap, forcing the runner to the inside where there should be more help. But, #40 and #94 didn't really do an adequate job backing him up. There is some question of whether he overran the play, depending on his responsibilities, but I'm not sure I'm comfortable saying for sure.

Play 5: He does a good job of keeping an eye on the ball, recognizing a blocker and delivering the blow. He didn't use his hands as well as he could have in his blow, but he delivered the first strike and that's why he was able to stay free enough to come at the ball.

Play 6: This is really an excellent job dealing with a blocker. There's no hesitation and he keeps his feet moving, uses his hands to get beyond the blocker on the move and give himself the best chance of getting into the play.

Play 7: He tends to strike the first blow on blockers but if there's a complaint, it's that he's not using his hands well enough and relying on shoulders instead.

Play 8: Another fantastic job of moving into the block, extending his arms, making first impact, being aggressive and keeping an eye on the ball. As many have noticed in the past, he plays a little out of control sometimes with his aggression and in this case once he saw the ball go down, he shouldn't have thrown the blocker to the ground so blatantly, and he also has to watch his hands to the facemask.

Play 9: Leans into the block well and gets his arms out before contact, keeping his spot and forcing the ball inside to where there is help (unfortunately the help doesn't do so good a job again). Doesn't do a good enough job disengaging as the ball came through the gap.

Play 10: Another example of him choosing to set the edge instead of making a play on the ball. This has to be schematic. It's so out of sorts. I really do disagree with the notion that he's a freelancer. What you see on this play and the other play isn't the mark of a selfish player. It's the mark of a selfless player, erring on the side of setting up his teammates to make the play. Spikes does more things that are selfless in nature, which basically means accomplishing something so that someone else can make the play on the ball, than Rolondo McClain. No doubt in my mind.

Play 11: Really an excellent job keeping his eye on the ball through a block, disengaging and making a play on the ball. Fine job.

Play 12: This play might not really belong in this section, he only dealt with traffic at the very end of the play as he was making a play on the ball.

Play 13: He found the gap and he ran to it, didn't allow an OL to move him out of it, leaving the blocker looking like a shovel that ran into a rock.

Play 14: Confused as to where the blow was coming from. He thought he had a blocker identified but then someone else got him and Spikes allowed the OL to get right into him. He had to, not unlike McClain, rely on his natural talent to get off the contact but in the pros if you let a guy get into you first, you're often just plain done, regardless of your physical ability.

Play 15: Truly an excellent job. Stays on the balls of his feet, extends his arms, delivers the blow, and then runs by the blocker to make a play on the ball.

Play 16: Negotiating heavy traffic, he ends up leaving himself open for a blocker to get right into him and deliver the first blow. This happened because he had to knife close in on an engaged blocker and defender and he used his arms to swim by the two without losing speed, but he couldn't recover in time to get a good plan going on the next obstacle.

Play 17: Gets his hands up adequately as he moves into the first strike, but most importantly he keeps his arms fully extended, keeping the blocker off his body, and his feet moving, which allows him to dominate the block.

Play 18: Another example of finding the right gap and filling it, then not allowing a blocker to move you out of it, forcing the ball carrier away from where he should be and (hopefully) into help. Problem is his first strike is more of a shoulder blow which only guarantees that you're not going to have much maneuverability out of the block. He gets the blocker on the ground of course but that's just his physical gifts doing the talking.

Play 19: The story here isn't how he dealt with the blocker. That was actually really tremendous work. The story here is about false steps. Try as I might, I can't figure out what he saw that made him take a few steps to the left. He barely missed making a play on the ball but it was a function of his false steps at the beginning of the play, not his dealing with an OL who was aiming to pummel him...he dealt with the OL fantastically but he was already just a little too far out of the play.

Play 20: He lets I believe it's Vlachos get right into him without using his hands, which again is a pet peeve. But, much like McClain, physical gifts will get you out of fully engaged blocks that a lack of technique got you into in the first place.

Play 21: Truly a superb job when you consider he had to deal with two OLs that were separately aimed at him during this play. He really kept his head on a swivel, his feet moving, his arms extended, and he got around both blocks. What's the rest of the defense doing? Two OLs lock onto one LB and someone else can't make a play?

Play 22: Only an adequate job keeping his feet moving before the block and getting his hands up, but excellent use of hands and feet after the initial strike. That's sort of a bad/good overall grade.

Play 23: Much like the play where McClain found the hole and took on the FB in the hole, that is what Spikes does on this play. Except where the FB dominated McClain and eventually got him on the ground, Spikes is physically dominating the lead blocker (which happens to be a TE) in the hole. Unfortunately, he doesn't do a very good job getting his hands extended.

Play 24: A really good job here keeping his left arm extended in traffic to keep everyone off him, allowing him to stay off blocks and get after the ball. He overpursued a little which left his tackle looking a little speed bump-ish, but that's really a separate issue from dealing with blockers.

Play 25: Doesn't do a good job of getting his arms up before this block, but met the blow with an aggressive blow of his own, for sort of a stalemate, which allowed him to keep one hand free to get after the ball. Not a good technique, but not a total fail.

Play 26: I sort of knew someone was going to bite on this one. He actually did a really good job dealing with the blocker on this screen play. He kept his arms extended and his feet moving, had a plan to deal with the blocker, everything you could ask for IMO. Two things you have to keep in mind on this play. One is, he started out on the back side of this play with coverage responsibility on the left side of the field. That's a long way to come over, from the middle of the hash marks to the sideline, to chase a screen, while negotiating an aimed OL on the way. I think he did a good job even threatening the play to begin with. The second thing is, he was blatantly held on the play! The OL has his shoulder grabbed, and turns it from Spikes' side, and then to top it off he dives straight at the back of Spikes' legs and clips him. Should have been a penalty.

Play 27: Again, excellent work here. He's poised on the balls of his feet, leaning into the blow and delivering with his hands and arms extended, keeping his feet moving and this allows him to get off the block and head toward the ball.

Play 28: On this play, he does a little bit more of avoiding traffic and blocks than he does taking them on. He gets to the side of the blocking and lunges at the runner from the side, making the tackle.
 
Well, I was going to wait for a big rollout of some sort for this stuff but I'll just go ahead and link you guys.

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miJwMCgaxKo

Universal Draft Presents LB Rolondo McClain (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Tackling, Coverage, Handling Blockers)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5voTSl9uEI

Universal Draft Presents LB Brandon Spikes (Blitzing, Awareness)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhG6bwopKTc

BTW, Universal Draft is the draft evaluation website that myself, Boomer and Conuficus work on.

Great work. Actually the one guy who really seemed to catch my eye in those clips is Carlos Dunlap. I like the way that he sheds blockers, and he moves around like a big cat. Great movement for a guy of his size, surprising lateral movemnt. He seems to give good effort, I'm surprised that his stats don't reflect that. Seems like a boom or bust type, but the talent is there.
 
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