Mike Mayock says Alex Mack "not" the best Center

[ckparrothead]

I think MrEd is just trying to say that even guys with proven track records are wrong a good amount of the time and so it's perfectly valid to disagree with them on any given issue.

Of course, he could have said it a lot less combatively.

And also, anyone who really thinks Mel Kiper is an idiot, sounds ignorant to me.

 

[jim1]

So far I've heard Tyronne Green, Andy LeVitre, Rashad Johnson, Louis Delmas and Cody Brown.

And yes, absolutely unstoppable. And what kills me about this whole craze with Mack and Unger, etc...is a big part of the reason people want to replace Samson Satele is because of how he did against Haloti Ngata in the playoff game...with only waiver wire players like Ikechuku Ndukwe and Andy Alleman to his left and right to try and help him out.

It's not just Satele's performance against Ngata. It was him getting his lunch handed to him on a rather consistent basis by Wilfork, Jenkins, etc. and seldom showing any power in the pivot. He had a lame year and left major question marks, bottom line. If he needs good Guards to not look crappy- well, that's a problem. His performance against Wilfork in the seocnd game was pathetic, almost embarrassing to watch.

Yes, he'll look better when Smiley and Thomas return. But looking better when better players surround you isn't good enough. It's a power offense now, and he's just not a power player.

 

[hoops]

So far I've heard Tyronne Green, Andy LeVitre, Rashad Johnson, Louis Delmas and Cody Brown.

And yes, absolutely unstoppable. And what kills me about this whole craze with Mack and Unger, etc...is a big part of the reason people want to replace Samson Satele is because of how he did against Haloti Ngata in the playoff game...with only waiver wire players like Ikechuku Ndukwe and Andy Alleman to his left and right to try and help him out.

i thought satele struggled with just about any nose this season. ngata though is a whole different level.

 

[hoops]

It's not just Satele's performance against Ngata. It was him getting his lunch handed to him on a rather consistent basis by Wilfork, Jenkins, etc. and seldom showing any power in the pivot. He had a lame year and left major question marks, bottom line. if he needs good Guards to not look crappy- well, that's a problem. His performance against Wilfork in the seocnd game was pathetic, almost embarrassing to watch.

Yes, he'll look better when Smiley and Thomas return. But looking better when better players surround you isn't good enough. It's a power offese now, and he's just not a power player.

i agree with that

 

[hoops]

cody brown was beating loadholt off the edge like he was standing still in 11 on 11 drills. i saw him one time beat him without even laying a hand on him.

looks like he's gonna have to play olb in a 3-4 to me.

 

[WelcomeBack]

The problem I have with taking Mack in the first is, how do we know he'll do any better against those NT's?

I'd trust in the front office if they made Mack the pick, I just don't see it.

 

[Rev Kev]

it's called versatility. something this regime looks for. why do you think we had vonnie holliday and philip merling getting reps last year in camp at olb???

i wouldn't be so concerned with how some of these centers are looking in one on one other than if they lack the strength to anchor and the ability to recover as in that drill the defenders are working with much more space than you'd see in game situations and the drills are geared towards the defender having all the advantages. these guys want to do work in a phone booth.

both mack and caldwell have displayed those skills to me.

1a. Why would you make that leap the brass wants versatility on the Oline...? We currently don't eevn have depth let alone 5 starters one could count on. You really believe they want to draft a guy they can play all positions over a Pro Bowl talent...?

1b. How games did Merling play OLB and how many downs did Vonnie play OLB

2. If we aren't UPGRADING why bother at all our center is serviceable

 

[ckparrothead]

i thought satele struggled with just about any nose this season. ngata though is a whole different level.

He didn't struggle at all with Vince Wilfork in the first NE game, and I personally did not see him struggling with Vince as much in the second game as I've heard people intimate, either. He didn't struggle at all with Kris Jenkins in Week 17.

Keeping in mind that every Center in the National Football League is supposed to struggle one-on-one with a face-up nose tackle, and if he's not, you need a new nose tackle.

 

[ckparrothead]

It's not just Satele's performance against Ngata. It was him getting his lunch handed to him on a rather consistent basis by Wilfork, Jenkins, etc. and seldom showing any power in the pivot. He had a lame year and left major question marks, bottom line. If he needs good Guards to not look crappy- well, that's a problem. His performance against Wilfork in the seocnd game was pathetic, almost embarrassing to watch.

Yes, he'll look better when Smiley and Thomas return. But looking better when better players surround you isn't good enough. It's a power offense now, and he's just not a power player.

I really disagree with that. I watched him closely against some of the opponents you say he struggled against and I did not see what you are talking about.

I think he has struggled at times this year, he is a second year player and he was bracketed by crap the final third of the season, and the criticisms have just snowballed to where the statements about what he did or did not do are not really reflecting what actually happened.

 

[ckparrothead]

cody brown was beating loadholt off the edge like he was standing still in 11 on 11 drills. i saw him one time beat him without even laying a hand on him.

looks like he's gonna have to play olb in a 3-4 to me.

Which is why we're talking to him. :)

One of my draft partners, Con, really likes Cody Brown.

 

[WelcomeBack]

Team drills, Raji just blew up Mack three yards in the backfield. End of play.

Edit: Twice in a row.

 

[Rev Kev]

Team drills, Raji just blew up Mack three yards in the backfield. End of play.

Edit: Twice in a row.

Raji may not be around at #25 if he doesn't take a few plays off

 

[hoops]

He didn't struggle at all with Vince Wilfork in the first NE game, and I personally did not see him struggling with Vince as much in the second game as I've heard people intimate, either. He didn't struggle at all with Kris Jenkins in Week 17.

Keeping in mind that every Center in the National Football League is supposed to struggle one-on-one with a face-up nose tackle, and if he's not, you need a new nose tackle.

the kris jenkins we saw in the first game and the kris jenkins we saw in the final game were 2 different players. jenkins looked like and had looked like it for some weeks that he had run out of gas and mailed it in for the year.

i think a lot of the success satele had against wilfork in the first game was more a result of the surprise wildcat but that's just my opinion. i agree he had nothing around him the last 3rd of the season. alleman and ndukwe were just bad.

i've also heard that satele had shoulder surgery after the season and played with a minor injury throughout most of the year but i haven't been able to confirm or deny it.

i think we need a more power and physical presence at center for this offense.

 

[Rev Kev]

the kris jenkins we saw in the first game and the kris jenkins we saw in the final game were 2 different players. jenkins looked like and had looked like it for some weeks that he had run out of gas and mailed it in for the year.

i think a lot of the success satele had against wilfork in the first game was more a result of the surprise wildcat but that's just my opinion. i agree he had nothing around him the last 3rd of the season. alleman and ndukwe were just bad.

i've also heard that satele had shoulder surgery after the season and played with a minor injury throughout most of the year but i haven't been able to confirm or deny it.

i think we need a more power and physical presence at center for this offense.[/quote]

Agreed...

 

[JT-forpresident]

I tell you what, while everyone is obsessed with Alex Mack and Max Unger (and now Eric Wood), I see Miami's choices differently.

I think that, ok, if you're going to give up on Samson Satele...then you do it in a big way. You go ahead and get yourself Jason Brown, the hottest Center free agent in the game, a guy that went up against Haloti Ngata (quite possibly the premier NT in football) in practice every day and came out one tough son of a gun. He will expect to be paid the most of any Center in football. That's not difficult, actually. The Bucs made Jeff Faine the highest paid Center in the NFL with a 6 year, $37.5 million contract that included $15 million to sign. The extension Olin Kreutz signed in 2006 pays him roughly 5.8 million a year for three years. The contract Andre Gurode signed in 2007 was six years, $30 million, with $10 million to sign. Nick Hardwick is only being paid $17 million on 6 years.

Just last year we signed Justin Smiley to a 5 year, $25 million deal...and giving Jason Brown what he wants will only cost a little over a million a year more than Justin Smiley? That's not a terrible deal, if you feel that the Center position is SO important, that we already need to write off Samson Satele, a second round investment, and use our #25 overall pick on yet another Center. I say that if you're going to do that, do it right, get a guy that's proven, get Jason Brown.

On the other hand, I don't think we should do that at all. While everyone is obsessed with Alex Mack and Max Unger, personally I'm looking at an A.Q. Shipley. He is someone you can get much cheaper, much lower, that played extremely well at Penn State, is a very smart player, a former Nose Guard that knows leverage and can't be bull rushed. He won the Rimington Award as the nation's top Center. He is an All American. He's knocked because he doesn't have long arms. Big deal. Neither did Nick Mangold.

If you take an A.Q. Shipley much lower in the draft, he can function as depth, like an Al Johnson, and IF he's good enough, THEN you can start to think about putting him in the starting lineup over Samson Satele, and moving Samson out to one of the guard spots as depth (if Donald Thomas pans out) or as a starter (if Thomas gets hurt).

In the mean time, judging from the players that Miami is out there interviewing...I have no reason to believe they're targeting an Alex Mack, Max Unger, Eric Wood, Antoine Caldwell or Johnathan Luigs.

Pay through the nose for Jason Brown, or take an A.Q. Shipley. Those are the choices I would be deciding between.

i don't know that kid from PSU, but i totally agree with you that if you want to replace what you think is an "average" center, don't go look in the draft to replace him, because you just might end up with average v2.0 ... and if you do go in the draft, don't waste such a value pick like #25, go get one in the lower rounds, make him work his way through an already thick depth at center/guard