Poll: Fielder Out?

[Catch34]

I voted yes, Jay is a decent Quarterback that suffered last year from a Oline that wasnt just bad but downright horrible. Jay can serve as a very good back up, and if needed can start if Feeley doesnt work out. I thought was funny how last year everyone was crying to get rid of Fiedler and to start Griese, but once Fiedler was gone, they turned around and cried for Fiedler back (i.e. Redskins game).

 

[Jimmy James]

Originally posted by Graythreat


dude, your putting words in peoples mouths.

Perhaps, but I'm not doing it to anybody who hasn't tried to put words into my mouth. It's called arguing persuasively. I restated his proposition in a way that was probably more extreme than he meant it to be. It's a tactic designed to get the other party to step back from that position.

I personally voted no. Sure, he'd be a fine BACKUP. But that's it. And for some reason Wanny has some sick affiliation with the guy. Until he's gone no one else will get a fair shake. Not only that, until he's gone we won't bring in anyone that will challenege him for the starting spot.

Perhaps you missed it, but RS is running the personnel show now. That takes care of the second part of your proposition unless you want to say that RS is in on the "conspiracy".

As to the DW issue, I say fire DW if you think he isn't being objective. I have no problem with that. Blaming Jay for DW's behavior is just juvenile, and it doesn't solve the problem you want to solve. Who is to say that DW won't just get crazy over starting Billy Joe Hobert over anybody else?

Jay has had four years to lead this team. In this time he's been "adequate" period. That's all he's been. He's not the heart of our offense by any means. He's an adequate QB that makes good decisions. Unfortunately he can't make the throws that we need him to make.

We agree here. I'm not aruging that Jay should go into season 5 as the starter unless that is the result of a fair QB competition.

Think back to Denver 2 seasons ago. Jay lead CC over the middle on a floating pass across teh field right into a defender. That throw NEVER should have been made but it was AND it was made badly. The end result was CC getting a concussion and sidelining him for a few weeks.

I'm not going to blame Jay for something Kennedy is responsible for. The improper hit caused the injury. While you can use but-for causation to blame Jay, there isn't any policy reason to ever blame a QB in this situation. I don't care who the QB is.

The ONLY think Jay has is experience on this team. News flash, he's the only one with experience, becasue he "wins" every QB competition. Until he's gone we'll get rehashed 3rd stringers to "compete" with Jay, when what we need is a REAL QB competition. AJ may be it, but I have my doubts, any way you stretch it, he's a long shot, and having Jay around won't make his odds any better. He's an overpaid backup making more than our starting QB. Until he's gone, we can't move on. Period.

I'm going to ask you the question I asked somebody else and didn't get a straight answer to:

Are you willing to live with a 6-10 year (or worse) and quite possibly the retention of DW for yet another year due to woefully inadequate QB play? We know that there is potential for Feeley or another QB to play worse than Jay because we have seen it for ourselves. That is the risk of recklessly getting rid of the one guy who has substantial starting experience with this team, and it's not a risk I'm willing to take. Jay has shown us that he can get this team to the playoffs, and the team at least has a shot once they get there.

If you answer no to the above question, explain to me just exactly why it is impossible for the team to suck in a way it hasn't sucked in a long time if Jay is gone. Are you advocating going after a better QB? Where are you going to get him?

 

[noname72]

good point catch 34

 

[Jimmy James]

Originally posted by Asphyx


Why was Marino scrapped then?
Shouldn't he have been the backup until we had a replacement?

Ask somebody who forced his retirement. I certainly wasn't in that camp, and I doubt most of us were.

#1 What credentials does he have aside from throwing it to a CB as often as he throws one to a WR in the endzone...

He has a rather substantial winning record, and he beat out everybody brought in to challenge him so far. That includes a very popular at the time Brian Griese. He also has a win in a playoff game.

And #2 how many teams pay a backup 6.8 Mil to be a backup?

Answer NONE!

How many teams make idiotic, knee-jerk reactions like the one you're advocating that would cause a substantial cap hit? The dude is signed, and a lot of that money counts against the team if he goes tomorrow, after 6/1, or after camp.

If Jay was going to be the backup we should have made him take a paycut! And he should be practicing with the second stringers while feeley practices with the first teamers...Jay is your starter...but I'm sure your just fine with that!

Jay is rightfully the starter right now because Feeley hasn't done anything with the team. I will be pissed as hell if there isn't an equitable competition with the best QB named starter. I am very open to having another QB start for this team, but he has to show us that he is the answer. You can't really dispute this, plus your opinion is that the bar is set very low. What's the issue here, man?

 

[Asphyx]

He has a rather substantial winning record

No the TEAM has a rather substantial winning record despite his bringing down an offense that should look like Rams and KC because he has help it back with a 26th ranking passing average over 4 years....This team wins DESPITE him not because of him...

he beat out everybody brought in to challenge him so far.

No he didn't He competed with Huard the first year...Huard had one TD and one INT, Jay had one TD and 3 INTS...Only thing he beat Huard in was INTs! He didn't beat Ray in preseason in Ray's second season...Ray blew him away yet Jay was still named Starter....and when all was said and done as Bad as Ray played in his few games during the regular season Jay played just as badly!
As for Griese if Griese didn't get hurt he might have won the starting job...Jay didn't WIN it he just got it by default! Greise came in and played just as good as Jay did yet Jay still got his job back!

He also has a win in a playoff game.

Yeah thanks to a 250 yard performance by a Running back....without that Jay also has three shutouts in the playoffs and a 40 QBR!

How many teams make idiotic, knee-jerk reactions like the one you're advocating that would cause a substantial cap hit?

PLENTY! Look at SF for example...they took a cap hit and got rid of Garcia....How about NE...Once they had a starter they took a major cap hit to get rid of bledsoe...Just so you know you paying MORE money to keep the loser than you would have to cut him! If we had just cut him he would only count 6 Mil to the cap. Now he counts 6.8 mil to the cap and you STILL take a 4+ mil cap hit next year to get rid of him!

Jay is rightfully the starter right now because Feeley hasn't done anything with the team

So is he or is he NOT the backup....we all know the only reason you support keeping him as a backup is because you know DW will start him!
And what has Jay done with the team?
Lets see he had more INTs than TDs last year...
Hasn't finished one season in 4....
Hasn't ever been ranked higher than 26th in passing...
So what has he done that Feeley or any other QB couldn't?

Are you willing to live with a 6-10 year (or worse) and quite possibly the retention of DW for yet another year due to woefully inadequate QB play?

At least with a 6-10 season we draft high enough to get a proper replacement...
Your way we wind up 9-7 and DW stays and so does Jay and we stay on this merry go round saying we don't have enough to get a GOOD QB until the defense sucks and Jay can't win more than 1 game because he doesn't have a to p 5 defense winning it for him!

Look at NE2....
Jay scored more points for NE than NE got off of our defense and more points than he scored for the team he is supposed to be so integral in WINNING GAMES for!

 

[Jimmy James]

Asphyx,

You need to seriously evalulate your hatred for Jay. You really want to say that Ray Lucas played as well as Jay did? While your fantasy league may call Huard's 1/1 performance superior to Jay's 1/3, QB play isn't all about those two little numbers. I stand by my statement, and I have the judgment of the Dolphins organization to back me. Also, you're quite frankly on crack if you think this offense could have looked like KC/STL even with QBs like Green/Warner/Bulger at the helm. Half of the four years featured Lamar Smith as the feature back, and Chris Chambers is the only really decent receiver this team has had.

As to your point about the Niners and the Patriots...The Patriots did what they did after they got some performance out of Brady. I have little problem with getting rid of Fiedler after a season with Feeley at the helm doing well. The Niners quite frankly scare me with their freaky player personnel moves. I would frankly prefer the Dolphins emulate the Bengals FO instead of the Niners FO at this point.

You know, finishing 26th means that there was a 27th, a 28th, a 29th, a 30th, a 31st, and even a 32nd (for the past couple of seasons). That should show you that there is room for inferior QB performance to Jay's.

I'll end by saying that you're dead wrong about my reason for wanting to keep Jay. It will be a tragedy if Feeley doesn't outperform him and win the job, but at least Jay will keep this team in the hunt if that happens. If I'm right about Feeley and he does well, then we just have a nice insurance policy in Fiedler right there on the bench. Don't ever accuse me of being in league with DW...

 

[Phinzone]

Originally posted by Jimmy James


Perhaps, but I'm not doing it to anybody who hasn't tried to put words into my mouth. It's called arguing persuasively. I restated his proposition in a way that was probably more extreme than he meant it to be. It's a tactic designed to get the other party to step back from that position.



Perhaps you missed it, but RS is running the personnel show now. That takes care of the second part of your proposition unless you want to say that RS is in on the "conspiracy".

As to the DW issue, I say fire DW if you think he isn't being objective. I have no problem with that. Blaming Jay for DW's behavior is just juvenile, and it doesn't solve the problem you want to solve. Who is to say that DW won't just get crazy over starting Billy Joe Hobert over anybody else?



We agree here. I'm not aruging that Jay should go into season 5 as the starter unless that is the result of a fair QB competition.



I'm not going to blame Jay for something Kennedy is responsible for. The improper hit caused the injury. While you can use but-for causation to blame Jay, there isn't any policy reason to ever blame a QB in this situation. I don't care who the QB is.



I'm going to ask you the question I asked somebody else and didn't get a straight answer to:

Are you willing to live with a 6-10 year (or worse) and quite possibly the retention of DW for yet another year due to woefully inadequate QB play? We know that there is potential for Feeley or another QB to play worse than Jay because we have seen it for ourselves. That is the risk of recklessly getting rid of the one guy who has substantial starting experience with this team, and it's not a risk I'm willing to take. Jay has shown us that he can get this team to the playoffs, and the team at least has a shot once they get there.

If you answer no to the above question, explain to me just exactly why it is impossible for the team to suck in a way it hasn't sucked in a long time if Jay is gone. Are you advocating going after a better QB? Where are you going to get him?

A few years ago, a Lions playe was severel inujred on a perfectly legal hit across the midde, the QB was to blame there. The point is, the WR is blind, a QB IS responsible for those thrws. CC had no idea what was coming, He did his job, played for the catch teh QB can't make that throw. I'm sorry, but that' taught to every QB in the NFL and I'd wager in most colleges. If a QB leads a player into a hit like that he is responsible. It was an illegal hit, but CC never should have been put in that situation. He'sben rettled twice on passes that never should have been made, as well as Ricky. He tries to make throws he can't make. i'm sorry, but that's how it is.

And asfor the "dave is giving the job to Jay" that wasn't part of the question. You asked if Jay should still be here, I said no he shouldn't be. Not "well if Dave's gone". The fact is, we STILL have people thinking hes an OK starter after 4 years of mediocracy. people stll defend him, and he shouldn't be. His play has not been good enough for 4 years. Even when he had a great line that gave Rick a huge rushing season he was sub par. He's holdling our offense back.

And as for your 6-10 question, yes, under the right circumstances, I am willing ot suffer through a 6-10 season. IMO, we should have let go of Jay,and Kept Griese an Sage while we draft a rookie and groom him for next year. They would be a stop gap, BUT...

it would be a move for the future in drafting the rookie

and

it gives us a "potentially" great QB, where as we KNOW Jay is a flop at QB. I'd rather have Brian or Sage there. Sage hasn't got his fair shake. Brian proved when he had time that he could make great pases and reads (SD), but utterly flopped when under pressure. I wanted sage to get his fair shake, and have him and Brian battle it out. 0-16 is fine with me, as long as we were grooming the future franchise QB.

 

[Jimmy James]

Graythreat,

I don't agree with you on the potential losing season, but I can respect those arguments.

As to defending Jay, I think I have to distinguish defending him from calling for him to start. A big part of defending him has to do with the people on the other side who are just frankly irrational. No matter how you feel about his play, Jay deserves a certain amount of respect from Dolphins fans. That is my real interest...

 

[Asphyx]

While your fantasy league may call Huard's 1/1 performance superior to Jay's 1/3, QB play isn't all about those two little numbers

you mean there is something a guy who threw 3 times as many turnovers could do to make up or it?
Pray tell what?

It is the QBs job to throw the ball to the WRs in the endzone more than he throws it to the CB for an INT...
NOTHING else is as important as that!

I don't waste time evaluating how I feel about a player who does nothing but hold this team back...
Maybe you should re-evaluate your love for Jay and come up with a VALID reason instead of picking out the 3 good things he has done and ignoring the 140 things he has done badly!
I don't hate Jay anymore than I hate any QB who plays half a season and only ranks 26th in passing!
If Jay was going to do anything worth paying for he would have done it in 4 years time!
I'll bet you wanted Lamarb smith gone after ONE bad season despite the fact he had one more GOOD season than Jay has ever had!

but at least Jay will keep this team in the hunt if that happens.

In the hunt for what? 9-7? Is that a good thing?
If Feeley fails and we stick with him at least we are in the hunt to replace him with a great Drafted QB!

You still didn't explain why SF dumped Garcia....

Jay should have been cut...
Instead we gave him a RAISE!!!
Do you support that?

Sure there are 6 teams worse we could be....
But there are 25 teams better than we could be!
They all got ahead of us by not keeping scrubs on the roster and trying out different players and not keeping guys they KNEW were scrubs!

And if you look at those teams that are behind us none of them have a top 5 defense or Running back even a quarter as good as what Jay has!

 

[Dolfan984]

Yeah I really got to rip into this post. It's a really bad one no offense to whomever posted it I'm not looking at the name heh.


"No the TEAM has a rather substantial winning record despite his bringing down an offense that should look like Rams and KC because he has help it back with a 26th ranking passing average over 4 years....This team wins DESPITE him not because of him..."


Rams and KC? Sorry KC has probowlers across their line, and they got a LOT more money spent on their O than D. We are the opposite. Rams o-line wasn't very good, and guess what. Bulger threw a TON of INTs! Oh, and I'll take Bruce and Holt over Chambers and uh....yeah


"No he didn't He competed with Huard the first year...Huard had one TD and one INT, Jay had one TD and 3 INTS...Only thing he beat Huard in was INTs! He didn't beat Ray in preseason in Ray's second season...Ray blew him away yet Jay was still named Starter....and when all was said and done as Bad as Ray played in his few games during the regular season Jay played just as badly!
As for Griese if Griese didn't get hurt he might have won the starting job...Jay didn't WIN it he just got it by default! Greise came in and played just as good as Jay did yet Jay still got his job back!"

Danny's boy "Huard" scored like a total of 1 TD in all the preseason games he had. I think Jay played that last preseason game RIGHT off of an injury. Heh, is Huard even going to have a job this year?

Ray did do better in preseason...against the 2nd stringers. Jay played as bad as Ray? HAHAHAHAHAHA that is FRIGGEN RIDICULOUS! Sorry heh we would have won the division outright in 2002 if we could have had some decent QB play vs the Bills, or the fact that we scored 10 points three games in a row...that after Jay had us in the top 5 in scoring at that point (when we were 5-1) Heh I can't believe 10-6 would have won the division that year...and if we got another shot at the Raiders?? Hmmmmm Oh...and is Lucas still the #3 guy or did he get dumped since Boller is back?

Griese? Oh god I had faith in him in the beginning of the 03 season. Sorry man, save the Chargers game (I was there) he was lousy. Heh you wanna know why Jay got his job back? It's called 23-10.....to 24-23. Griese sucks bad. No way Griese played as good as Jay, heh didn't he have like 8 turnovers in back to back losses?

"Yeah thanks to a 250 yard performance by a Running back....without that Jay also has three shutouts in the playoffs and a 40 QBR!"

I'll give you that. Huard really should have finished that season...though I don't know if we would have gotten any farther. Heh remember the Jets game when Fiedler and Lamar hurt themselves in the 1st Quarter? I think that may be why.

"PLENTY! Look at SF for example...they took a cap hit and got rid of Garcia....How about NE...Once they had a starter they took a major cap hit to get rid of bledsoe...Just so you know you paying MORE money to keep the loser than you would have to cut him! If we had just cut him he would only count 6 Mil to the cap. Now he counts 6.8 mil to the cap and you STILL take a 4+ mil cap hit next year to get rid of him!"

I live in Niner country...I know for a fact that he was going to cost 10 mil on their cap this year, and they had someone who had experience with THEIR team in Rattay. Uh, they got rid of Bledsoe because he was like 8-10 million dollars and they just WON THE SUPERBOWL with Brady. What has Feeley ever done with us besides sign a contract? Fiedler doesn't cost 6 mil this year, we saved a bit by restructuring his contract.

"So is he or is he NOT the backup....we all know the only reason you support keeping him as a backup is because you know DW will start him!
And what has Jay done with the team?
Lets see he had more INTs than TDs last year...
Hasn't finished one season in 4....
Hasn't ever been ranked higher than 26th in passing...
So what has he done that Feeley or any other QB couldn't?"

He started all games in 2001, and nearly all of them in 2000. Todd Wade's helmet collided with his thumb in that Bronco game, not exactly an 'injury prone' type of injury. In 2001 I know he carried the offense....Lamar had like 3.1 YPC I believe. I know it was above 26th can't tell you exactly. We don't know what Feeley can or can't do. That's why we have FIEDLER! We've seen what 'any other QB' could do in Griese or Lucas...both different styles of passing, and both played worse than Jay. Has Jay ever had a good O-line or a real receiver besides Chambers? (Gadsden was decent in 2000)

"At least with a 6-10 season we draft high enough to get a proper replacement...
Your way we wind up 9-7 and DW stays and so does Jay and we stay on this merry go round saying we don't have enough to get a GOOD QB until the defense sucks and Jay can't win more than 1 game because he doesn't have a to p 5 defense winning it for him!"

Heh you want us to go 6-10? Sorry go ask a Bills fan how 6-10 feels. I bet it sucks. At least we can field a competitive team. I think everyone is for an upgrade no matter what any position, but I think AT LEAST Jay should stay as a backup.

"Look at NE2....
Jay scored more points for NE than NE got off of our defense and more points than he scored for the team he is supposed to be so integral in WINNING GAMES for! "

Heh god forbid we lose a game to a team that had a 15 game winning streak including the Superbowl. Brushci made a HELL of a play on that INT. No way any QB sees him hiding behind those linemen.

Sorry, but I can't think of a better backup than Jay right now.

 

[dol_fan_in_tampa]

Are you freaking kidding me? Face it! there are no other Marinos left in this world. I'm sorry, but, in all the games JF played in last year how many bad game swas he actually off? The NE away game? ok so the whole team took a break. The other NE game. Mare gaffed that one. Houston you say? Not quite he threw a bad pick near the end, but the D should have never let it come down to that. The colts game? griese blew that chance buck gave us. Philly? Jay was on that game. Tenn? Griese blew it.


You fiedler bashers out there are full of it. You are all sitting around waiting for the next Dan that you actually think a Third string QB who played good like two years ago during a five game stretch is the answer over a guy who isnt pretty but is a consistent winner over the last few years? Fiedlers bad games have gotten less and less frequent every year. i think he only had one truly bad game last year and that was the NE game up there in the snow when everyone sucked. He did all that while Chambers and Randy were doubled and teams focused on Ricky. Come even the great Marino, who is a god in my household where even my Russian wife now understands Marinology, had bad games.

The bottom line is fiedler is not great but he is not bad either. Gannon became great in later age, and Fiedler is still improving he will get to that level. Have some patience and quit bashing a guy whose team is run by a few people who are afraid to open up and let it fly. Now with Boston you dont think fiedler will be good.

Im not ready to turn this franchise over to aj quite yet. he won some games yeah, but that was a while ago. Besides Griese was supposed to be decent and so was Ray Lucas.

 

[Phinzone]

Originally posted by dol_fan_in_tamp
Are you freaking kidding me? Face it! there are no other Marinos left in this world. I'm sorry, but, in all the games JF played in last year how many bad game swas he actually off? The NE away game? ok so the whole team took a break. The other NE game. Mare gaffed that one. Houston you say? Not quite he threw a bad pick near the end, but the D should have never let it come down to that. The colts game? griese blew that chance buck gave us. Philly? Jay was on that game. Tenn? Griese blew it.


You fiedler bashers out there are full of it. You are all sitting around waiting for the next Dan that you actually think a Third string QB who played good like two years ago during a five game stretch is the answer over a guy who isnt pretty but is a consistent winner over the last few years? Fiedlers bad games have gotten less and less frequent every year. i think he only had one truly bad game last year and that was the NE game up there in the snow when everyone sucked. He did all that while Chambers and Randy were doubled and teams focused on Ricky. Come even the great Marino, who is a god in my household where even my Russian wife now understands Marinology, had bad games.

The bottom line is fiedler is not great but he is not bad either. Gannon became great in later age, and Fiedler is still improving he will get to that level. Have some patience and quit bashing a guy whose team is run by a few people who are afraid to open up and let it fly. Now with Boston you dont think fiedler will be good.

Im not ready to turn this franchise over to aj quite yet. he won some games yeah, but that was a while ago. Besides Griese was supposed to be decent and so was Ray Lucas.

You've got to be kidding me. People are STILL defending him? Come off it, he's NOT good enough to be our QB. I'm sorry, but your beating a dead horse.

What's your excuse for FOUR YEARS of mediocre play? He doesn't have the arm, he doens't have the accuracy, and he's HAD his chance. I'm sorry, but but he's not good enough.

He's constantly injured, and holds our offense back.

 

[dol_fan_in_tampa]

i agree on the injury part but his play was good enough to HELP win games. the injuries are a problem but are you seriously thinking a chnge in qb is called for and take a chance of feeling when the front office guys are having a win now attitude. Come on we lost games when he was hurt over the last few years. the only way he has hurt the team is by not being in the lineup.

 

[Phinzone]

Originally posted by dol_fan_in_tamp
i agree on the injury part but his play was good enough to HELP win games. the injuries are a problem but are you seriously thinking a chnge in qb is called for and take a chance of feeling when the front office guys are having a win now attitude. Come on we lost games when he was hurt over the last few years. the only way he has hurt the team is by not being in the lineup.

And handicapping our offense. We had to build our team around his inability, rather than the offense's ability. He constanly botches throws. To such an extent, that defenses don't respect pass and stacks the box keeping Ricky at bay.

Our offense has become content with not losign games, rather than trying to win games. We can't break games open with Jay at the helm. We need a passing threat. What good are 2 great Receivers, and a great TE if you have no passing game? For years, we had passing, no running. Now, we have running and no passing. We need to get it back, less we stay one dimensional. Jay isn't the answer, I'm willing to try anything, rather than commit to him again.

That's my problem with this AJ thing. I am FINE with AJ at the helm, as long as we draft for the future. If AJ flops we're back to fiedler, and looking for another starting calibre QB. A search that will take at least a year or two to fill IF we get a QB via FA and boat loads of money. Keep AJ and Rosenfels, but don't give Jay a shot at being starter.

 

[4THand10]

Originally posted by Graythreat


You've got to be kidding me. People are STILL defending him? Come off it, he's NOT good enough to be our QB. I'm sorry, but your beating a dead horse.

What's your excuse for FOUR YEARS of mediocre play? He doesn't have the arm, he doens't have the accuracy, and he's HAD his chance. I'm sorry, but but he's not good enough.

He's constantly injured, and holds our offense back.

That is 100% the truth.

Maybe its about time Mr. Huizenga get involved and finally get rid of Fiedler. There is no way the Dolphins will ever win a super bowl with Fiedler as the starter.