Schein thinks the Bills will be this year's Cinderella

[nyjunc]

Good QBs on bad teams can only do so much. Bad QBs can win if the team around them is good enough.

In the majority of the wins you credit Sanchez for, he was not the main reason the Jets won. Yet, in the losses that Sanchez did play a major part in, you blame other parts of the team. If Sanchez gets the team back in a game, you call it bringing his team back (Even if he was major reason they were down in the first place), when other QBs do it, you call it garbage time numbers. Your evaluation of QBs is very biased.

If winning is all that matters to you, then you would probably prefer Tebow over Matt Ryan? I know you prefer Sanchez to Rivers, Romo and just about any QB not named Tom Brady. Vince Young has an excellent regular season record. He must be a better QB then Matthew Stafford.

bad QBs don't win consistently no matter what the talent is like around them.

Tebow has 1 playoff win, a WC win at HOME but in a big game I would take Sanchez over Ryan. If Mark had the talent they have in Atl and playing at home? they would have won the SB last year.

Vince Young hasn't done anything in January and led his team to 6 pts in in his lone playoff app.

 

[The New Guy]

bad QBs don't win consistently no matter what the talent is like around them.

Tebow has 1 playoff win, a WC win at HOME but in a big game I would take Sanchez over Ryan. If Mark had the talent they have in Atl and playing at home? they would have won the SB last year.

Vince Young hasn't done anything in January and led his team to 6 pts in in his lone playoff app.

When "numbers guys" like Ryan have a Super Bowl ring and Mark is out of the league, quotes like that will be even funnier.

Sanchez has won 4 more games than he has lost as a starter in the regular season. He has made the playoffs in 2 of his seasons, and missed the playoffs in his other two seasons. He only made the playoffs in one of those seasons becasue of what another team decided to do at the end of the regular season. According to you, it was the talent around him that caused him to be so bad last year. How does all that translate to him being a consistent winner regardless of the talent around him? He has basically had 1 season out of 4 when he won more games than he has lost.

Tebow has only had the opportunity to start 1 season. In that year, he won games and won a playoff game. How long did it take Ryan to win a playoff game? If I evaluate a QB like you do, I must conclude that Tebow is better than Matt Ryan. You know that is not true. Tebow did make plays that helped the Broncos win games, but without the D and the running game, they wouldn't have stood a chance. On a different level, the same is true with Sanchez. Sanchez was a small part of the Jets wins, and was usually a big part of their losses.

If Sanchez was as good a QB as you think he is, surely he will be starting for some team for many more years, right? I hope so!

 

[nyjunc]

When "numbers guys" like Ryan have a Super Bowl ring and Mark is out of the league, quotes like that will be even funnier.

Sanchez has won 4 more games than he has lost as a starter in the regular season. He has made the playoffs in 2 of his seasons, and missed the playoffs in his other two seasons. He only made the playoffs in one of those seasons becasue of what another team decided to do at the end of the regular season. According to you, it was the talent around him that caused him to be so bad last year. How does all that translate to him being a consistent winner regardless of the talent around him? He has basically had 1 season out of 4 when he won more games than he has lost.

Tebow has only had the opportunity to start 1 season. In that year, he won games and won a playoff game. How long did it take Ryan to win a playoff game? If I evaluate a QB like you do, I must conclude that Tebow is better than Matt Ryan. You know that is not true. Tebow did make plays that helped the Broncos win games, but without the D and the running game, they wouldn't have stood a chance. On a different level, the same is true with Sanchez. Sanchez was a small part of the Jets wins, and was usually a big part of their losses.

If Sanchez was as good a QB as you think he is, surely he will be starting for some team for many more years, right? I hope so!

Maybe someday Ryan wins one but he's had much more talent to work w/ than mark Sanchez and Mark has 4 road wins vs. 1 home playoff win for Ryan.

mark is only 4 games over right now but was 7 games over coming into last season. No QB would have won w/ the healthy talent we had.

make all the excuses you ant, the Jets made the playoffs 2 years and won 2 playoff games each year.

Tebow won a division at 8-8 losing his last 3 reg season games, if he played in any other division he wouldn't have been in the playoffs. he won one home playoff game in OT.

In the same spot as sanchez the year before he got humiliated at NE in the div rd. Where Sanchez threw 3 TDs and 0 INTs leading us to a 28-21 win, Tebow didn't throw a TD and led Den to a 45-10 loss.


Name the games you think he cost us? he was much more valuable than you give him credit for especially in 2010 when he rescued us numerous times late in games.

 

[Vaark]

Aside from being 6-12 over his last 18 games (yes, crapping the bed in '11 when playoffs were stilll a possibility, and an impressive 52 turrnovers over the last 2 complete seasons.....putting "he's shown he can win" into perspective, by comparison

Rex Grossman: 6-11 over last 17 starts (mostly for worse Washington teams)

Conference Championships
Sanchez 0
Grossman 1

SB Appearances
Sanchez 0
Grossman 1

Career Stats
Sanchez: 62Games Played
Grossman 54

Avg Yds/Attmpt
Sanchez 6.48
Grossman: 6.55

Completion Percentage
Sanchez: 55.1
Grossman: 55.3

TDs/Ints/Fumbles
Sanchez: 68-69-26
Grossman: 64-60-22

QBR
Sanchez: 71.7
Grossman: 71.4

Same difference - aside from Grossman not failing to win a Conference and smell a world Championship. And no, IMO, there aren't any NFL teams who would look at either as starting material to build around at this point.

 

[nyjunc]

this is a discussion btw posters that understand the game, your input is not needed.

 

[DuderinoN703]

So now Mark Sanchez is better than Matt Ryan? There isn't one other human being on the planet who knows the NFL that would agree with this.

 

[nyjunc]

So now Mark Sanchez is better than Matt Ryan? There isn't one other human being on the planet who knows the NFL that would agree with this.

I never said that but Mark has shown to be the MUCH better big game QB and he hasn't had half the talent to work with that Ryan has had. Ryan is not a Brady/Rodgers type. he's a good QB made much better w/ the incredible talent around him. If the QBs switched teams the results would be similar.

 

[The New Guy]

Maybe someday Ryan wins one but he's had much more talent to work w/ than mark Sanchez and Mark has 4 road wins vs. 1 home playoff win for Ryan.

Prior to this past year, Ryan never had the kind of help that Sanchez has had in his 4 playoff wins. The Falcons high of rushing in his playoff games was 64 yards. The lowest rushing total the Jets ever had in a Sanchez playoff win was 120 yards. The Falcons defense gave up an average of 34 PPG in Ryan's first 3 playoff games and averaged 56 rushing yards per game. The Jets defense gave up 16 PPG in Mark's 4 playoff wins and averaged 157 rushing yards per game. It is not a coincidence that when Ryan (The guy who could never win a playoff game) finally got some help from the running game, they won a playoff game. A game that his defense still allowed 28 points in.

make all the excuses you ant, the Jets made the playoffs 2 years and won 2 playoff games each year.

2 out of 4 years is not a consistent winner regardless of the talent around him.

Tebow won a division at 8-8 losing his last 3 reg season games, if he played in any other division he wouldn't have been in the playoffs. he won one home playoff game in OT.

Make all the excuses you want, Tebow won his division which is something Sanchez has never done and led his team to a home playoff win. See how that works? You are right to put things in context by pointing out that he played in a weak division, but you also need to put Mark's playoff births and wins into context by recognizing that he qualified in 2009 by the grace of the Colts and that he has been carried by his team in his playoff wins.

Name the games you think he cost us? he was much more valuable than you give him credit for especially in 2010 when he rescued us numerous times late in games.

We already went over bunch of games from 2011 in a different thread. Regardless if Mark threw multiple picks that were returned for TDs or led to points for the other team, or if Mark couldn't convert 3rd downs to close out games, you constantly blame the D. Mark did help the Jets win some regular season games in 2010, but the Jets also got a lot of lucky breaks in several of those games that year. Detroit and Cleveland come to mind. QBs like Mark who need the team around him to be great in order to win will not win consistently. You have seen it first hand the last 2 years. That is why Tebow is not a starter, and why Mark will most likely not be starting in this league much longer.

 

[The New Guy]

I never said that but Mark has shown to be the MUCH better big game QB and he hasn't had half the talent to work with that Ryan has had. Ryan is not a Brady/Rodgers type. he's a good QB made much better w/ the incredible talent around him. If the QBs switched teams the results would be similar.

If Mark had the talent they have in Atl and playing at home? they would have won the SB last year.

:confused:

 

[DuderinoN703]

I'm not getting into this stupid ass debate again. Relive the glory years (all 2 of them) as long as you like while the rest of the NFL World moves on.

 

[nyjunc]

Prior to this past year, Ryan never had the kind of help that Sanchez has had in his 4 playoff wins. The Falcons high of rushing in his playoff games was 64 yards. The lowest rushing total the Jets ever had in a Sanchez playoff win was 120 yards. The Falcons defense gave up an average of 34PPG in Ryan's first 3 playoff games and averaged 64 rushing yards per game. The Jets defense gave up 16PPG in Mark's 4 playoff wins and averaged 157 rushing yards per game. It is not a coincidence that when when Ryan (The guy who could never win a playoff game) finally got some help from the running game, they won a playoff game. A game that his defense still allowed 28 points in.



2 out of 4 years is not a consistent winner regardless of the talent around him.




Make all the excuses you want, Tebow won his division which is something Sanchez has never done and led his team to a home playoff win. See how that works? You are right to put things in context by pointing out that he played in a weak division, but you also need to put Mark's playoff births and wins into context by recognizing that he qualified in 2009 by the grace of the Colts and that he has been carried by his team in his playoff wins.





We already went over bunch of games from 2011 in a different thread. Regardless if Mark threw multiple picks that were returned for TDs or led to points for the other team, or if Mark couldn't convert 3rd downs to close out games, you constantly blame the D. Mark did help the Jets win some regular season games in 2010, but the Jets also got a lot of lucky breaks in several of those games that year. Detroit and Cleveland come to mind. QBs like Mark who need the team around him to be great in order to win will not win consistently. You have seen it first hand the last 2 years. That is why Tebow is not a starter, and why Mark will most likely not be starting in this league much longer.

That first paragraph looks nice but let's look at reality.

Matt Ryan playoff career:

2008 at Ari:
after Atl D forces 3 and out to begin game Ryan throws INT, a few plays later it's 7-0 Ari. Atl has 17-14 lead at half and get the ball to begin 2nd half. 2nd play Ryan fumbles, Ari scoops up for TD and 21-17 lead.(not his fault, the play was blown up but still fumbled). fails next couple of possessions, Ari takes 28-17 lead. Intercepted on next play, 3 and out on next possessions. Gets ball back down 28-17, on 1st down takes a safety for 30-17 deficit. When you are down double digits in the2nd half do you expect to run the ball?

2009 vs. GB:
after KR gives Atl 14-7 lead, GB scores to tie. Next possession on 3rd and long in FG range he throws INT. GB scores to take 21-14 lead, next possession in long FG range throws INT for TD for 28-14 lead at the half and the rout was on. How can you run when down double digits in 2nd half?

2011 at NYG:
He led his O to ZERO points, hard to win doing that. Lowest pt total sanchez led his O to was 17 pts.

The difference in the win was Ryan stepped up. After blowing the lead he ld them to the GW FG through the air. he stepped up and they won, he failed to step up after they blew the lead the next week and they lost.

In 5 playoff games Ryan has:
7 INTs that led to 35 pts
3 fumbles that led to 10 pts
10 TOs that led to 45 pts

In 6 playoff games Sanchez has:
3 INts that led to ZERO pts
1 fumble that led to 7 pts
4 TOs that led to 7 pts

That's a BIG difference from 10 for 45, right? that will put your team behind, make your D look worse and take away your run game.

It's as consistent as ben and the Steelers, more consistent than Eli & the Giants.

Tebow won the worst division in football, lost his last 3 games and still won it at 8-8. He doesn't see the playoffs in the AFC east and Den's D would hold opponents down until late and Tebow would have one drive. There's a reason Sanchez got a contract extension after his playoff wins and Tebow was shown the door.

I blame the correct units, sometimes it was mark's fault, other times the D or run game or STs. mark never cost us a playoff game.

 

[shula_guy]

I'm shocked that the Bills did not court Moore. IMO that would of been a good signing for them. He could of at least been servicable enough to take some of the pressure off of Spiller and he would not of broken the bank to sign him. I agree with everyone else saying that without good QB play they are not going to have too good of a season.

I can however understand why a writer might throw that team out there as a darkhorse pick. Things need to fall into place for them to have sucess but they do have the tools to do it up there with the exception of the QB.

 

[nyjunc]

I'm shocked that the Bills did not court Moore. IMO that would of been a good signing for them. He could of at least been servicable enough to take some of the pressure off of Spiller and he would not of broken the bank to sign him. I agree with everyone else saying that without good QB play they are not going to have too good of a season.

I can however understand why a writer might throw that team out there as a darkhorse pick. Things need to fall into place for them to have sucess but they do have the tools to do it up there with the exception of the QB.

Moore is an excellent backup but I don't think he would have done anything to help Buf as a starter. Moore is in a great spot right now.

 

[The New Guy]

That first paragraph looks nice but let's look at reality.

Matt Ryan playoff career:

2008 at Ari:
after Atl D forces 3 and out to begin game Ryan throws INT, a few plays later it's 7-0 Ari. Atl has 17-14 lead at half and get the ball to begin 2nd half. 2nd play Ryan fumbles, Ari scoops up for TD and 21-17 lead.(not his fault, the play was blown up but still fumbled). fails next couple of possessions, Ari takes 28-17 lead. Intercepted on next play, 3 and out on next possessions. Gets ball back down 28-17, on 1st down takes a safety for 30-17 deficit. When you are down double digits in the2nd half do you expect to run the ball?

The Falcons were not down 28-17 until the end of the 3rd quarter. Where were the rushing yards from the first half when they were up 17-14? Where were the rushing yards when they were only down 4 points for most of the 3rd quarter? You forgot to mention the 76 yard drive the Falcons D allowed which took a 4 point game to an 11 point game. You also forgot to mention the crucial 3rd and 16 with 2:16 left that the Falcon allowed the Cardinals to convert in a 6 point game.

2009 vs. GB:
after KR gives Atl 14-7 lead, GB scores to tie. Next possession on 3rd and long in FG range he throws INT. GB scores to take 21-14 lead, next possession in long FG range throws INT for TD for 28-14 lead at the half and the rout was on. How can you run when down double digits in 2nd half?

The first INT the Packers took over at their own 20 yard line with a tie game. The Falcons D allowed them to go 80 yards to score and take the lead. The Falcons D allowed the Packers to go 70 yards and score again on their first possession of the second half. Ryan's interception that got returned for a TD hurt, but it is not why the Falcons lost that game.

The difference in the win was Ryan stepped up. After blowing the lead he ld them to the GW FG through the air. he stepped up and they won, he failed to step up after they blew the lead the next week and they lost.

Noticing a trend? When has Sanchez ever bailed his D out by "Stepping up" in the playoffs?

In 5 playoff games Ryan has:
7 INTs that led to 35 pts
3 fumbles that led to 10 pts
10 TOs that led to 45 pts

In 6 playoff games Sanchez has:
3 INts that led to ZERO pts
1 fumble that led to 7 pts
4 TOs that led to 7 pts

That's a BIG difference from 10 for 45, right? that will put your team behind, make your D look worse and take away your run game.

In those 3 playoff losses, he threw 2 Ints that were returned for TDs. The other Ints he threw the other team started on their own 20, and 37 yard lines and the D allowed TDs on those drives. Against the Seattle, he threw one and they started on their own 37 and threw another that led to no points. He has thrown 7 Ints that has led to 35 points, but only 2 scores were from pick sixes. The D allowed long drives after his other turnovers. Just becasue the Jets D didn't allow scores off of Mark's turnovers, doesn't make Mark's turnovers any better. Sanchez gets credit for limiting his turnovers in the playoffs, but Sanchez was never in the situations that Ryan was in.

It's as consistent as ben and the Steelers, more consistent than Eli & the Giants.

Not quite! In Ben's first 4 years, the Steelers made the playoffs 3 out of 4 years, won the division 2 out of 4 years and won the Super Bowl. The Giants have not consistently made the playoffs, but have won the Super Bowl 2 times in the last 5 seasons.

Tebow won the worst division in football, lost his last 3 games and still won it at 8-8. He doesn't see the playoffs in the AFC east and Den's D would hold opponents down until late and Tebow would have one drive. There's a reason Sanchez got a contract extension after his playoff wins and Tebow was shown the door.

There is a reason! One team failed to land Peyton Manning and the other didn't. The same GM that gave Sanchez that ridiculous extension also traded for Tebow. Just becasue Elway knows what he is doing and Tanny did not, doesn't prove anything.

I blame the correct units, sometimes it was mark's fault, other times the D or run game or STs. mark never cost us a playoff game.

He played a big part in losing to Indy and Pitt, and has never been the main reason the Jets have won a playoff game. Most QBs could win the same games with the D allowing 16 PPG and the running game averaging 157 yards a game. If you had one of those numbers QBs, the Jets would most likely have won a Super Bowl.

 

[nyjunc]

The Falcons were not down 28-17 until the end of the 3rd quarter. Where were the rushing yards from the first half when they were up 17-14? Where were the rushing yards when they were only down 4 points for most of the 3rd quarter? You forgot to mention the 76 yard drive the Falcons D allowed which took a 4 point game to an 11 point game. You also forgot to mention the crucial 3rd and 16 with 2:16 left that the Falcon allowed the Cardinals to convert in a 6 point game.




The first INT the Packers took over at their own 20 yard line with a tie game. The Falcons D allowed them to go 80 yards to score and take the lead. The Falcons D allowed the Packers to go 70 yards and score again on their first possession of the second half. Ryan's interception that got returned for a TD hurt, but it is not why the Falcons lost that game.





Noticing a trend? When has Sanchez ever bailed his D out by "Stepping up" in the playoffs?



In those 3 playoff losses, he threw 2 Ints that were returned for TDs. The other Ints he threw the other team started on their own 20, and 37 yard lines and the D allowed TDs on those drives. Against the Seattle, he threw one and they started on their own 37 and threw another that led to no points. He has thrown 7 Ints that has led to 35 points, but only 2 scores were from pick sixes. The D allowed long drives after his other turnovers. Just becasue the Jets D didn't allow scores off of Mark's turnovers, doesn't make Mark's turnovers any better. Sanchez gets credit for limiting his turnovers in the playoffs, but Sanchez was never in the situations that Ryan was in.




Not quite! In Ben's first 4 years, the Steelers made the playoffs 3 out of 4 years, won the division 2 out of 4 years and won the Super Bowl. The Giants have not consistently made the playoffs, but have won the Super Bowl 2 times in the last 5 seasons.



There is a reason! One team failed to land Peyton Manning and the other didn't. The same GM that gave Sanchez that ridiculous extension also traded for Tebow. Just becasue Elway knows what he is doing and Tanny did not, doesn't prove anything.



He played a big part in losing to Indy and Pitt, and has never been the main reason the Jets have won a playoff game. Most QBs could win the same games with the D allowing 16 PPG and the running game averaging 157 yards a game. If you had one of those numbers QBs, the Jets would most likely have won a Super Bowl.

Ari got the ball w/ 10 1/2 to play in the 3rd, scored a TD w/ under 3 mins to play. They had two possessions prior to the score changing to 28-17- the fumble for the TD on their 2nd play of the 2nd half and then a drive where they had 2 penalties for 15 yds. where were they supposed to run the ball?

For your reference, while the Jets did run it well overall they didn't have great 1st halves running it outside of 1 play at Cincy '09 and Ind '10.

1st half rush yds:
2009 playoffs:
at Cincy: 15-72, 4.8 avg. Looks great but remove the 39 yd TD and it's 14-33 and a 2.4 YPC. Not exactly churning the yardage out.
at SD: 14-45, 3.2 YPC
at Ind: 17-46, 2.7 YPC

2010 playoffs:
at Ind: 13-74, 5.7
at NE: 14-56, 4 YPC
at Pit: 5-3 yds, .6 YPC

totals: 78-296, 3.8 YPC

It doesn't matter where that first TO was, he gave a great offense the ball back and prevented his team from getting at least 3 pts. Ryan's INTs gave GB the momentum to pull away.

Ummm how about after the D gave up a FG to Peyton manning and Indy Sanchez led us to a chip shot GW FG to win ON THE ROAD at the Colts in the '10 WC game?

10 TOs that led to 45 pts. Spin it any way you want.

I'm talking about the last 4 years not ben's first 4 years.

2 SBs in the last 6 seasons.

The Jets never attempted to get Peyton.

He nearly brought them down from 24-0 down at Pitt. He led us to a double digit lead in Indy. Our defense was the main reason we lost both of those games. mark played well enough to win both if our D stepped up. If our D played like the Giant Ds of '07 and '11 we make the SB both times.