Signs point to trading a 3rd or 4th round pick

Discussion in 'Miami Dolphins Forum' started by MrEd, Mar 11, 2010.

  1. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/03/11/1524571/how-did-miami-dolphins-lose-out.html

    Jeff Darlington - (The harsh road bump Clark's hasty departure has caused the team is a tough setback, but the Dolphins have since entered into a regrouping phase for several days, nowreevaluating how to address the safety position.
    The team believes the first stage of free agency has concluded, and it is now in the stages of deciding whether to address the position through free agency or the draft. Miami is weighing all factors -- from a select number of restricted players to a thin, ordinary crop of remaining unrestricted players.
    Those decisions are likely to come to light over the course of the next week).

    :ponder:You know based on the fact that Miami is on year 3 of the rebuilding stage and the amount of holes that we still have is pointing me to believe that Miami is be dealing our 3rd and/or 4th round picks. Why?

    Because they need to 'ensure' that they come away with 4 "starters" from our top 4 rounds of the draft, that's why. And its not a probability that your 3rd and 4th round picks start in their rookie years, unless you are lucky.

    History show that the most likely rounds to land your immediate starters are in the first 2 rounds of the draft. So that's why I can see the FO not wanting to give up those high picks. But after that, 3rd round and beyone its a lot more luck than the first 2 rounds.

    But with all these holes still to fill at starter level with SOLB not having a starter right now, NT not having a starter (or at least no viable backup for the first 8 games), no starter at FS, no true big play WR in the starting lineup, no pass catching threat at starting TE, question mark at starting RG, no PR, etc. I would think that they are pondering opening up to moving a 3rd and/or 4th round picks or a 2011 pick and negociating with a team(s) for RFAs that can be starters at any of those positions.

    I mean NT, FS, and SOLB absolutely do 'not' have starters currently. And one can argue the same thing with #1 'big play' WR spot and/or TE spot. So one can 'argue' that are roster is lacking 5 starters right now, at least 3 starters most definitely.

    This leads me to believe that I am not going to be the least bit surprised if/when Miami sends the #74 pick or the #108 pick or a pick in 2011 for a RFA at one of the needed positions.
     
  2. Nublar7

    Nublar7 Retired Finheaven VIP

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    It depends on who is out there worth trading for. This front office is not going to just trade a pick for a veteran just for the sake it. They love their draft picks, and they love building through the draft. Which is a VERY smart philosophy.

    Last year, Ireland really wanted to trade for McDaniel and he did by sending Jacksonville a 7th round pick. Parcells was OK with the move but he told Jeff that since he lost a draft pick, he must find a way to recoup it. A few days later, Satele was traded for a 6th round pick.

    They may make a trade for a player, but I wouldn't say it is a certainty. This front office doesn't like to move picks for veterans very often unless they get tremendous value. Like the 6th round pick for Ferguson or the two for one trade when they sent a 4th round pick to Dallas for Ayodele and Fasano.
     
  3. pacresjt

    pacresjt Well-Known Member

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    Hope they do, what we need is proven talent to shore up this team and avoid the Pat Whites and Patrick Turners of last years draft and the Gibril and Greens of FA. And thank god they have stayed away from overpriced guys like Rolle, Bryant and Boldin who are getting Ed Reed money and more than Randy Moss and other top receivers in the NFL. It looks like they have learned from their mistakes.
     
  4. DearbornDolfan

    DearbornDolfan Seasoned Veteran

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    I would go the opposite direction, actually. This draft is so deep that a 3rd or 4th rounder might very well be good enough to start. I would say don't be surprised if Ginn and Camarillo are dealt for 3rd and 4th round picks respectively. Al Davis would snap up Ginn for a 3rd in a heartbeat. The problem is Camarillo and who needs a slot receiver; the only teams I can think of would be Ravens (who no longer have a pick that high) and the Chiefs, which is far more likely given the quid pro quo that this FO and theirs seem to have. Maybe entice them to throw a third in for Fasano and use that pick and a 2011 pick to trade up into the second round.
     
  5. flynryan15

    flynryan15 FinHeaven VIP Finheaven VIP

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    I just have a hard time believing with how this FO loves picks they trade a 3rd or a 4th.
     
  6. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    Yes, this is true. Though this year is a different year and in a different stage of the rebuilding. They are said to be re-evaluating their strategy on filling the FS spot. Meaning that initially, they had made up their minds that FS was not coming from the draft, the #12 pick was going to be used on another player. But now that they were unable to land a FS via FA, they are now re-evaluating their decision and pondering, "Is there another way to obtain a starting FS that is not a rook."

    Only way that is going to happen is by RFAs, if Sharper isn't the guy. Which by their belief that the initial UFA rush is now 'over', that Sharper is not a guy they are thrilled with as the starting FS.

    So I could see them go for Otogwe and be willing to part with a pick in order to influence STL to not match or flat out poison pilling it. Or maybe they can find another team willing to trade a starting FS for a 3rd rounder or something like that.

    Other than that, they are forced to use the #12 pick on Earl Thomas, a rookie. Something that they have shown, not desiring.
     
  7. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    Trading Ginn Jr for a 3rd round pick would be, in my opinion, foolish. Why? Because then you 'force' yourself, just as we have done with the FS spot, to have no choice but to land a starter at that spot, even if their isn't anything desirable left.

    Ginn's starting spot is not the position you want to get rid of without landing his replacement, FIRST. Why? Because Bryant is 'likely' not to be there at #12 to replace him. And if he is, you lose out on landing a starting NT, or at least now put yourself at the russian roulette of hoping Cody or Cam Thomas isn't drafted before #43, which is very likely to happen. You can't risk that, which is why I believe Dan Williams is the choice at #12.

    Then, as is likely, if Bryant goes before #12, are you now forced to draft Benn or Demaryius Thomas at #12? Because they will not be there at #43. So Ginn can't be traded until you see what has happened with the draft, first.

    Yes, I can see Ginn traded before the draft...but only in a trade with another pick for his replacement.
     
  8. X-Pacolypse

    X-Pacolypse A True Fan

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    Ginn sucks.
     
  9. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    Actually, they didn't stay away from Rolle. They pursued him as plan A. Yes, I agree they stayed away from Boldin and Bryant, but they definitely did not stay away from Rolle. They definitely pursued him, just struck out. You probably meant, you are glad they struck out on him because he wasn't worth it, but we definitely did not stay away from him.
     
  10. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    So does trading him first before landing his replacement.
     
  11. DuderinoN703

    DuderinoN703 We? What the **** we? Finheaven VIP Donator

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    So that's how you have over 10,000 posts
     
  12. X-Pacolypse

    X-Pacolypse A True Fan

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    Please. Ryan Grice-Mullen could do Ginn's job, and probably do it better.
     
  13. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    :ponder:
     
  14. SR 7

    SR 7 Banned Hammered

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    1st next year for bethea. If we get Bethea, a SOLB, a #1 WR and a NT we will be in the playoffs at the least so a 25th pick and up for bethea is wel worth it.
     
  15. luduporcu

    luduporcu Banned Hammered

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    No he can't. That's pure stupidity. He's barely as fast as BESS, and has shown himself to be a truly mediocre return man, and an equally mediocre (if not worse) WR. He may not even be around very long.
     
  16. Fin_Frenzy_84

    Fin_Frenzy_84 Starter

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    So trade a third now but not for Boldin...
     
  17. mdolp1

    mdolp1 All Pro

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    They could have already done this by trading for Anquan Bolden! I just don't understand the moves to date! I like the Dansby signing but releasing Wilson who I know did play horribly last year with no replacement in place made no sense, then knowing that ferguson is suspended for eight games and not signing a stop gap guy like Jamal Williams, to the whole Clark fiasco and then not even having any of the top free agent wr come in for a visit makes no sense! Overall for me it has been a very sad start to free agency and the 2010 season!:boohoo:
     
  18. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    Well, I'd try my best to not deal that 3rd rounder, because there's still chance to land a starter or a pass catching TE with that one. I'm more inclined to let go of the 4th round pick for either a SOLB like Cliff Avril or in a throw in to help keep STL from matching our offer to Atogwe.

    But if we had to let go of the 3rd rounder, then keep the 4th.

    Again, as far as I'm concerned the #12 and #43 pick belong to NT and SOLB or vice-versa. So that #74 pick or #108 pick is a pass catching TE or a trade for Atogwe.

    If we are able to trade for Cliff Avril, then we can open up a scenario of a FS at #12 with NT at #43, though Im nervous about not drafting Dan Williams at #12 because chances are getting bigger that both Cody and Cam Thomas may be gone by #43.
     
  19. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    Yeah but as Darlington reported, the FO is 'reevaluating jts strategy on finding Wilson's replacement at FS..." since striking out on both FS targets. Again, they obviously don't want a rookie FS. That's clear. Now they are realizing that in order to avoid a rookie FS, they are going to have to target an RFA and give up a draft pick somehow doing it.
     
  20. Tigers2003

    Tigers2003 FinHeaven VIP

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    I agree that this draft is deep. On D I see SOLB or ILB (move Dansby to outside and draft ILB being a possiblity), FS, and NT as big needs. To get young guys who could walk in or challenge to be starters at those many positions they may have to make ONE trade. What I don't want is too much trading of picks; the type of crap that went on when Spielman/Wanny was calling shots.

    As far as Ginn for a 3rd I could see the senile one out west pulling that due to his love for WRs with measurables to stretch the field. Some clubs out there may see value in Fasano too.
     
  21. NRA

    NRA Roll Gypsy Roll

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    MR.ED: why would the fins, who are in need of a starting wr, a safety and a NT
    pic a 4-3 DT? we dont need a dt. and i am probably the only guy here that
    wouldnt snivel at cody with our first choice as he is the ONLY real nt in this
    draft. a few prospects, yes, but experianced, dominant nt's? maybe 2. cody
    being the run away choice.

    why would you draft a dt at #12? we dont run a 4-3. and even that is iffy as
    he doesnt have real good strength [only 22 reps at the combine on the bench.]

    did you mean some one else?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 12, 2010
  22. NRA

    NRA Roll Gypsy Roll

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    .

    WE DONT HAVE wanny calling the shots anymore. that is what the problem was,
    not the giving of pics, but the guy who was deciding on the pics and who to give
    them up for.

    speilman is just doing to good of a job in minny to put much blame there. remember,
    wanny had FULL personel control and last word for just about ALL of his time in
    miami.

    we dont have him anymore. in this age of the nfl, free agency is VITAL to a teams
    growth and longevity. you just have to have people in your organization who know
    what talent is.

    you dont chop down the fruit tree because the workers brought in only rotten fruit.

    you fire the workers and bring in ones who know how to recognise rotten fruit and not
    to pic it!! you dont quit harvesting fruit!

    wanny really fugged up the heads of fin fans. not only did he put the team 10 years back with bad moves, bad drafts and lousy assistants, but he has fans not wanting
    to make a single move anymore other than picking at there given spot in the draft.
     
  23. Roman529

    Roman529 Moon Runner / The 3 AM Crew

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    Wouldn't it make a lot more sense trading down our first round pick to pick up an extra 2nd rounder and then using one of them to get a Safety or whatever are biggest need is as that time? Trading a 3rd or 4th rounder isn't likely to bring us anything of quality or a starter so why do it?
     
  24. Hellweed

    Hellweed Indomitable Survivor

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    I'd take a 3rd for Ginn in a heartbeat. Talk about finding his replacement? Don't read into it that lofty elusive "potential". Replacing what he's actually producing could be done by accident.
     
  25. Krush

    Krush Finaholic Donator

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    The way I see thing is everybody have a knee jerk reaction when other teams sign players, brodney pool! are you kiddin' he wasn't mentioned in the first wave of free agency, so you bring in the 6th or 7th rated player at posisistion because you couldn't get #1 or # 2, I believe that if you're really sold on a guy then go get him or wait for your # or 2 In the draft, if they need a FS then go get him with your 2nd or 3rd round selection, and paying top dollars for a scrub who had 2ints last season.
     
  26. emeraldfin

    emeraldfin Gary Speed RIP Donator

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    Ok, just say the FO are looking towards moving a 3rd or 4th rounder for either a Safety or WR, then who would you go for?

    Since you are more reluctant to move the 3rd round pick, then I cant see us getting a whole lot sending a 4th rounder. If you want to get starter material, then we will have to move at least a 2nd rounder for someone like Sensabaugh.

    Also I dont see the value in trying to trade away picks when two quality FA's are still out there in Sharper and Atogwe. Until they get signed, then I would keep trying to get them in Miami.
     
  27. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    No, I meant the NT Dan Williams. The one that Mike Mayock affirmed is the #1 "NT" prospect in the draft. That one. Not a 4-3 DT like Suh or McCoy, a 3-4 NT like Dan Williams. Yeah, that one. You know, the one who is 6'2" and weighs 320LBS? The NT one.
     
  28. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    Atogwe is the very one I'm talking about. Right now, his tender doesn't require 'any' compensation. But the whole league plus our great great grandparents know that STL will match any offer.

    So my suggestion is if we aren't going to poison pill the offer, then we need to overpay him and offer ourselves a pick to help convince STL not to match. Thus the 3rd or 4th round pick idea.

    The other idea would be a 4th rounder for Cliff Avril.
     
  29. MrEd

    MrEd Banned Hammered

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    Problem with that is who the heck would want to trade up to #12? Not an easy task. Very slim chance we get anyone to trade up to #12.
     
  30. qmar

    qmar Well-Known Member

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    I'm just not sure where I see Ginn starting. Starting WR's should be Cam and Hartline on the outside with Bess as our slot. Are you saying Ted Ginn is our #1 and a starting WR?

    That being said, there is no way we will get a 3rd round pick for Ginn. The guy is a hit or miss KR and a #4 WR.
     
  31. qmar

    qmar Well-Known Member

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    Highly disagree with this. There is a chance one of Berry, McClain, or Bryant fall to #12 and I think you would have suitors interested in moving up if one of those 3 fall.
     
  32. rev kev

    rev kev THE DEFLATOR

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    If Ginn goes as part of a package with 3rd I'm down with that... Camarillo for a fourth and I'm driving them both to the airport... I think Ginn will be staying but stranger things have happened.. Cam for a fourth...?
     
  33. Avigatorx

    Avigatorx Sec. 107 Row 2

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    I think you guys are underestimating Chris Clemons.

    And with Will Allen coming back we could even move Vontae to FS if we absolutely had to.
     
  34. fgrocker

    fgrocker Starter

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    Terrible post. The FO has stated repeatedly this offseason that while they have high hopes for Clemons, he has not developed enough yet to be a starter. And there is no way we would move a 1st round pick from CB to a position of luxury in only his second year in the league.
     
  35. Avigatorx

    Avigatorx Sec. 107 Row 2

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    Then why cut Wilson?

    They arent going to cut him unless they feel they can play with who they have.

    This regime is all about smokescreens, wouldnt surprise me one bit if they want people to think we are safety hungry going into the draft.

    As for moving Davis, why not? The guy is built like a safety and loves to hit.

    If you are calling FS a position of luxury then what does it matter anyway? Filling it shouldnt be a high priority.
     
  36. Danny

    Danny FinHeaven VIP

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    Every time people on here talks about trading our draft picks it makes me think of Wanny and is not a good feeling.Amazing how soon we forget about the last 3 coaches this team had...for Wanny trading high picks came so natural and it hurt our team so much....please FO, don't listen to anyone saying we should trade our picks.

    Ozzy rules!!
     
  37. Etuoo33

    Etuoo33 Seasoned Veteran

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    This thread started off so good with the first two posts, and then.... IMOH, the front office is trying to increase the odds by filling holes through free agency. You try to improve your chances by filling holes without overpaying to do so making it easier to finish with the draft, allowing you the option of trading then either to pick up choices or players. I don't think you'll see a trade for a 3rd or 4th before draft day, maybe a 6th or 7th. The value of draft choices is twofold, youth and a lower/longer contract (not if you have one of the top picks). You never 'hit' on every choice, but this regime has done better than most.(can you say Vernon Gholston or Pat White?)
     
  38. tcdrover

    tcdrover Pro Bowler

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    "You know based on the fact that Miami is on year 3 of the rebuilding stage and the amount of holes that we still have is pointing me to believe that Miami is be dealing our 3rd and/or 4th round picks. Why?"


    Christ, I wish I could get paid for coming up with such a WEAK, INANE premise.

    Parcells entire MO is based on building a team through the draft, and CONTINUALLY bringing in rookies to compete and improve the roster.

    Every year they consider dealing picks to move up or down or for players. They don't do it more because they've been here for 2 years already.

    They are professionals who have been doing this for MUCH longer than darlington has been posing for photo opportunites. I'm sure the labour agreement & the uncapped year factor MUCH higher than anything that this interior decorator is suggesting.


     
  39. BigJP

    BigJP Rookie

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    The only way I see them doing it is if they have plans of dumping someone like Ronnie, although I could see the 4th kind of like year 1 when they traded for fasano and akin, but like I said if they do you better believe there's someone right behind it getting the ax to get the picks back.
     
  40. pfcomics

    pfcomics Comic Shop Owner Extraordinaire

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    I figure this is as good a post as any to respond to seeing as how it consolidates a lot of the conversations all over this board... So, here are my two cents:

    NT - Personally, I wouldn't be shocked to see the Trifecta go for someone in the 4th rnd or later to fill our need. When you look at Fergy, it reminds you that Parcells likes to grab guys for the position much later on average. I serioulsy doubt we use an earlier pick to fill this spot.

    FS - So far, the Dolphins look like they have every interest in filling this spot through free agency. NOT the draft unless (once again) it's someone late into the draft like Clemons was. The attitude seems to be they want a veteran for leadership and talent both though I am perplexed as to why they keep going for run-stuffers as opposed to ball-hawkers. Doesn't make a lot sense to me but oh well. I expect them to start looking really hard at RFAs and maybe even throw out some sort of trade on Draft Day/Weekend for someone. Bethea would be fantastic imho but way to costly as it stands right now.

    WR - I wouldnt be shocked about a 1st or 2nd rnd pick being used to fill our big gaping hole. I would be a bit shocked with Bryant as the whole character thing is a major concern but maybe the regime thinks differently.

    OLB - This is where I think we go hog-wild in the draft. I think CK hit the mark when he suggested the Dolphins would use 3 picks on this position this year in the draft. It's a robust position this particular draft AND we arguably need 2 starters (assuming we dont bring Taylor back in as a stop gap). I really believe that 2 out of our first 3 draft picks are going to be used for this position.

    All of this is purely based off of opinion and previous history with Parcells and his drafts with the Dolphins and all of the other teams he has been involved with over the years so take it with a grain of salt.
     

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