The Heisman

[Dajesus]

I know this isn't about the Dolphins, but it should be here since the presentation is this Saturday.

I have to say I still don't understand why this isn't a land slide. Larry Johnson is the only canidate. I am a Hurricane fan, but I still don't think you can overlook what he has done this season. Only 9 other RBs in the history of College football have ran for 2000 yards. Only nine other people in the history of college football have gained more combined(rec+rush) yards than Johnson. How long has gollege football been around 110-120 years? That means 1 player every 1.2 decades has put up the numbers LJ has eclipsed this year. Add to that 23 tds, 350 yards receiving, and takeing a team that won 4 games last year to 9-3 and a top 15 ranking.

Sure Dorsey had a great career, but this a year award not a career achivement. This isn't the freaking grammys for christ sakes. His stats were very good, but they don't stick out like a soar thumb. I also don't see Florida A&M on Penn St's schedule.

Then you have the Miami arguement that takes alot away from both canidates from Miami. Not just having each other, but having their whole offensive football team. It must be nice to have 1 of the top 5 wrs in college football, 1 of the top 5 TEs in college football, 1 of the top 5 QBs in college football, 1 of the top 5 RBs in college football, and I think the best offensive line in college football for the 2nd straight year. This team is so good from top to bottom they have to take away from what any 1 player does there. If you want to give the Heisman to someone on the Hurricanes give it to Butch Davis.

MaGhee had a great year, but along with the above his stats don't compare to what Johnson did. 330 yards less 4 more TDs, and more talent on his bench than LJ has starting with him. The main thing is college football sees 1600 yards every years. Tehy see 2000 every 12.

Carson Palmer he had a great year, but it just donesn't measure up what has been done by QBs in the past. He also plays in the Pac-10. Who doesn't pass for 30 tds and 3000 yards in the pac-10? The true freshman from AZ st hit 3000 this year didn't he? It wasn't good enough for Harrington why would it be good enough for Palmer.

Brad Banks is the only guy that should be sitting in NYC with LJ. Great year. He took a nothing program, and made them 11-1. He toasted the oppostion with his feet and more so with his arm. Great leader, and the underdog element is huge. If it wasn't the season where a RB did something that has only been done 9 times I would hand you the heisman, but you lose.

I know he is going to lose, but it is sad. I was listening to ESPN radio today, and it seems that the Heisman has turned in to something similar to the presidental race. They were saying how Plamer would win the west, Banks and Johnson will cancel each other out because they will split the big 10 votes, and Willis shuld win because he should get the most 2nd to 3rd place votes. Please this is football, Penn St had the least talent around Larry, but he lead them back to respectability, while putting up stats that only can be compared to 9 other RBs in the history of the game. Can you say that about the others based on this season alone?

 

[Dajesus]

Oh forgot 1 thing. LJ has averaged 8.3 yards per carry thats only the best ypc of any RB that has hit 2000.

 

[aesthetic]

Maybe we should draft him and then trade Ricky for a few first round draft picks.....


I'm sooo kidding...

 

[Cranx]

Carson Palmer he had a great year, but it just donesn't measure up what has been done by QBs in the past. He also plays in the Pac-10. Who doesn't pass for 30 tds and 3000 yards in the pac-10? The true freshman from AZ st hit 3000 this year didn't he? It wasn't good enough for Harrington why would it be good enough for Palmer.

I can't believe I just read that, Palmer hasn't measured up to QB's of the past??? You're right, he hasn't measured up, he's surpassed, and he's done so against the toughest schedule in NCAA Division I football! He had one let down game against Kansas, but otherwise, his numbers have been stellar, and anyone with eyes saw the kind of numbers he put up against the toughest defense in the country against Notre Dame.

Also that bit about "who doesn't pass for 30 TD's and 3000 yards in the Pac-10..." was simply an ill informed comment, with a lack of a viable argument behind it. If you tell me that there's another QB in the conference, or in the country for that matter, who's put up equal or better numbers against THE TOUGHEST SCHEDULE IN DIVISION ONE COLLEGE FOOTBALL I'd say you're dillusional.

As far as I'm concerned, Johnson should finish 6th in the Heisman voting behind Marshall's Byron Leftwich who's a better athelete and meant more to his team. Johnson put up huge numbers against cupcake teams and couldn't break 80 yards against the only three tough teams that Penn State played this year (all losses by the way.) 2000+ yards against that kind of competition can't be considered too amazing- good, but not amazing.

Johnson probably won't even be selected in the first round of the draft next year as he's considered lacking in several areas vital to a running back. I'd say there are at least 5 RB's who are taken ahead of him.

As for the other guys, Dorsey's only there because of all the pub that Miami gets, otherwise he's nowhere near the top of the heap, and McGahee is good but it remains to be seen how good he is without the top offensive line in the country. Brad Banks did exceptionally well in Iowa and will probably finish as the winner or the #2 vote getter.

Again, Larry Johnson barely deserves to be in this thing and is a comparable athelete only to Dorsey- the other three are head and shoulders above and should finish 1-2-3.

 

[Dajesus]

Originally posted by Expo88
I can't believe I just read that, Palmer hasn't measured up to QB's of the past??? You're right, he hasn't measured up, he's surpassed, and he's done so against the toughest schedule in NCAA Division I football! He had one let down game against Kansas, but otherwise, his numbers have been stellar, and anyone with eyes saw the kind of numbers he put up against the toughest defense in the country against Notre Dame.

Also that bit about "who doesn't pass for 30 TD's and 3000 yards in the Pac-10..." was simply an ill informed comment, with a lack of a viable argument behind it. If you tell me that there's another QB in the conference, or in the country for that matter, who's put up equal or better numbers against THE TOUGHEST SCHEDULE IN DIVISION ONE COLLEGE FOOTBALL I'd say you're dillusional.

Unfounded huh? Dillusional? Check this out.

1. Kliff Kingsbury, Texas Tech 447 669 4642 66.8 6.94 42 12 40 142.2
2. Timmy Chang, Hawaii 335 603 4350 55.6 7.21 25 22 17 122.5
3. Cody Pickett, Washington 340 558 4186 60.9 7.50 26 13 35 134.7
4. Byron Leftwich, Marshall 309 447 4019 69.1 8.99 26 9 11 159.8
5. Ryan Schneider, C Florida 265 430 3770 61.6 8.77 31 16 12 151.6
6. Carson Palmer, USC 288 458 3639 62.9 7.95 32 10 21 148.3
7. Andrew Walter, Arizona St 246 426 3584 57.7 8.41 26 14 31 142.0
8. Luke McCown, La Tech 296 505 3539 58.6 7.01 19 19 24 122.4
9. Zack Threadgill, Nevada 275 451 3418 61.0 7.58 26 17 15 136.1
10. Jason Johnson, Arizona 239 410 3327 58.3 8.11 16 13 46 133.0
11. Gino Guidugli, Cincy 239 438 3319 54.6 7.58 21 16 21 126.7
12. Casey Bramlet, Wyoming 277 464 3290 59.7 7.09 24 18 38 128.6
13. Jose Fuentes, Utah St 246 454 3268 54.2 7.20 20 15 30 122.6
14. Adam Hall, SDSU 272 452 3253 60.2 7.20 17 9 33 129.1
15. Scott Rislov, San Jose St 275 449 3251 61.2 7.24 22 14 26 132.0
16. Ben Roethlisberger, Miami (OH) 271 428 3238 63.3 7.57 21 11 30 137.9
17. Jason Gesser, Wash St 219 368 3169 59.5 8.61 27 11 21 150.1

If you notice 4 qbs in the pac-10 passed for 3000. Cody picket actully had 500 more passing yards than Palmer. The kid Walter from AZ st is a freshman I bleave. Only Johnson from AZ wasn't with in 6tds of Plamer. i really don't think 6 tds surpass anyting that has been done in college football. Look at Kingsburry he plays in the Big 12 and has 4000 passing yards and 40 tds.

 

[Dajesus]

You made a good point about LJ struggleing in the big games, but not all true. In only one of those games he didn't have a good ypc, but in all of them he got the ball less than 20 times. His team got behind early in those games stopping the comitment to the run.

What does NFL prospect have to do with the heisman? It is best college football player. LJ plays in a major conference, and put up numbers that rival any RB that has ever played college football. Can you say the same about Palmer?

 

[Dajesus]

upon further investigtion we find more out about your boy. He started the year with 3 ranked opponets. Combined in those 3 games he had 3 tds and 3 ints. He only surpassed 300 yards in the first of the 3 against Auburn, but also threw 2 pics that game to only 1 td. 200 yards against Coll in game 2, and only 1 td. Game 3 against K st had 180 yards 1 td 1 int. He didn't put up any good numbers against a ranked team besides Notre Dame who almost lost to Navy 2 weeks before. BC also tore up Notre Dame's pass D. He didn't start putting up good numbers until the meat of his schedule was over. Lets look at the games he had huge numbers in.

October 19 Washington W 41-21 5-2 (3-1 Pac-10)
October 26 at Oregon W 44-33 6-2 (4-1 Pac-10)
November 9 at Stanford W 49-17 7-2 (5-1 Pac-10)
November 16 Arizona State W 34-13 8-2 (6-1 Pac-10)
November 23 at UCLA W 52-21 9-2 (7-1 Pac-10)
November 30 No. 12 Notre Dame

Wow those teams really have some mean defenses. 23 of his 32 TDs came against these giants. 2300 of his 3600 yards came against these monsters. so that is 3/4 of his stats vrs the cup cake part of his schedule(ND not included even though their D struggled in their last 3 games.)

Please EXPO. I am not saying he didn't have a great year, but his numbers don't stick out against what other QB have done in the past. If you are going to say my coments were unfounded and dillusional you better have something to back it up.

 

[Chubby]

UNFORTUNATELY LJ will win, the media gives dorsey to much bad hype to overcome. But thats just going to piss of this team a little more and everyone knows what happens when miami has a little more incentive to play better

 

[Boomer]

As long as it ain't Dorsey. Totally undeserving this year. It's the best college player THIS YEAR and that is certainly not the ol' duck chucker from the Orange Bowl.

 

[minus]

I don't know how can you say LJ won't be a first round pick....:confused:

Another thing that no one mention about LJ season is that he stayed in games that were blowouts to keep racking up yards to achieve 2,000 yards.I think Brad Banks deserve it more than any of the other players mention because:

Highest rated qb.
Iowa was suppost to be finish last in the Big 10 not #3 in the nation.
One of the most dyanamic players to watch this year.

 

[BSQX4]

I'm not at all sure that Larry Johnson is better than Willis McGahee. Say all you want about the Canes line being exceptional, they are, but they were great when we had Edge at the U of M. Edge went on to be a great pro, maybe the best back in the game when healthy. Portis is another example. These guys are great runners, period , end of story. It is not the blockers up front that makes them great, it's simply the fact that they are GREAT. McGahee may be the best of them all, take it from a guy who's watched Uof M football for many years. His combination of power and speed make him the #1 game changer in the nation. He's not a senior so I don't see him getting it. Palmer is a West Coast guy so I don't see him getting it. I feel based on leadership, his undefeated record this year combined with some very good numbers should swing the vote to Ken Dorsey.

 

[fin-atic]

Okay I disagree with ALL of you.

Dorsey should win and here is why:

1. What qualities do you grade for the BEST this year? You mean he has to throw for 5,000 yrds? If you had McGahee to hand the ball to would you throw it all over the place? Kenny spent much of the second half of each game handing off to sit on top of a lead and then sitting the 4th while backups got some work.

2. When sports fans are asked "who is the greatest QB of all time? They always respond "Montana". When you say "but his numbers are nowhere near the top". The answer is "Oh, but he won Super Bowls, and he found ways to win, and he was a great field general and he was a leader". Okay. Then why is all of that not the same criteria for Dorsey? Think about it.

3. He has beaten every UM passing record including two former Heisman winners. Their numbers were impressive enough to win.

4. When Eric Crouch, and Chris Wienke won. That makes the staement that it is a career achievment award. There is no way they were the best athletes playing.

5. The term best player is where I feel we get seperated. It is not limited to just physical ability which is often the stats. Its how well you play all aspects of your position. No one plays the position better than Dorsey.

And here are the reasons he won't win:

1. The Media is influenced by the North Eastern mega centers for the press, NY, Boston, etc, where they hate all that is Miami. They also are sick of Miami and feel the National Titles are enough. They are very biased against Maimi and have been on a campaign for them to lose, and to promote any candidate other than a UM player. At first it was Grossman, then it was Leftwich, then Brown out of Colorado, ANYONE but Miami. Now here late season they have thrown themselves on the LJ bandwagon and Carson Palmer bandwagon. Funny how the only preseason candidate is Dorsey and all he has done is win. But still will lose.

2. The remaining old guard of college football media hate Miami too. In a world that was dominated by the old sweep and the wishbone, Miami has toppled their favorites. Miami burst on to the scene with a pro style offense and those old school USC, Michigan, Ohio St. teams have been trying to catch up every since.

3. Most will say Dorsey is the product of a good team. Well he does have a good team. But at what point do you start acknowledging the quality of the team is because of good players. UM turned over much of their starting units on both sides. And they still win. Its not a coincidence that Dorsey is the constant. He has led this team to winning, they have not dragged him along.

So UM and Dorsey will ge the shaft. He will have to know he did all a QB should have to do to win this award. But he will settle for the consolation prize, the National Championship.

 

[RobertHoover]

Here's your Pac-10 Stats Dejesus

Pac-10 Passing Stats for Dejesus.

You had 5 with 3000+ and a 6th with 2994.


NAME CMP ATT YDS CMP% YDS/A TD INT SACK RAT
1. Cody Pickett, Washington 340 558 4186 60.9 7.50 26 13 35 134.7
2. Carson Palmer, USC 288 458 3639 62.9 7.95 32 10 21 148.3
3. Andrew Walter, Arizona St 246 426 3584 57.7 8.41 26 14 31 142.0
4. Jason Johnson, Arizona 239 410 3327 58.3 8.11 16 13 46 133.0
5. Jason Gesser, Wash St 219 368 3169 59.5 8.61 27 11 21 150.1
6. Derek Anderson, Oregon St 190 404 2994 47.0 7.41 24 12 22 122.9
7. Kyle Boller, California 225 421 2815 53.4 6.69 28 10 24 126.8
8. Jason Fife, Oregon 189 357 2748 52.9 7.70 24 10 25 134.2
9. Cory Paus, UCLA 109 184 1647 59.2 8.95 10 6 17 145.8
10. Kyle Matter, Stanford 116 214 1219 54.2 5.70 8 10 28 105.0

 

[fin-atic]

Did I ask for these? Why are you showing me these?

I hope not to make a point. Because my points where that the guy with the most stats isn't alwasy the best and hasn't always won. So those number mean nothing to me. What matters to me is this 37-1 as a starter. The most important stat of all, winning.

I am amazed that everyone thinks Miami is such a good team but none of the media saw fit to reward one player last night, Weird huh? So someone tell me again there is no biased against Miami!

 

[RobertHoover]

Those were for Dejesus there kid. He was trying to prove another point and these numbers will help.

This season the trophy is so up in the air I really don't care who wins. The one issue I have with Dorsey is he isn't even the best player on his team, that makes it hard for me to think he's the best in the country.