The Marlins payroll....

[Ray Finkle]

HOMER!!!

(Had to.)

Anyway, my theory on trades that aren't improving the current team is that you demand ridiculously high and then move down, because then the "compromise" you're making with the other team is still ridiculously good. For instance, in the Delgado deal, the Marlins asked from the Mets for Jacobs, Milledge, and Petit; the Mets responded with "you can have Jacobs and we'll throw in an okay talent in Grant Psomas, but you have choose from Petit and Milledge." We ended up with our starting 1B and a potential 2-3 starter instead of just Jacobs and someone else.

The demand for Willis would be off the charts, so the requests are off the charts. You're hoping to pull a Kazmir-for-Zambrano, a Bagwell-for-Larry Andersen-type deal. You only do that by starting very, very high.

for the homer comment.

The tag on Willis would be higher than normal because he's a young, left handed pitcher who is very very good. I just feel that my team would be better off keeping their prospects than to throw them all in a deal for Willis. It's nothing against the D-Train (who I very much like) it's more to do with the talent these prospects have.

 

[Prime Time]

for the homer comment.

The tag on Willis would be higher than normal because he's a young, left handed pitcher who is very very good. I just feel that my team would be better off keeping their prospects than to throw them all in a deal for Willis. It's nothing against the D-Train (who I very much like) it's more to do with the talent these prospects have.

You are crazy. You'd prefer young players who have the POTENTIAL to be good (could pan out, or might not) instead of a 24 Year Old Left who is already playing at a Cy Young Level?! The age difference isn't much..and a Cy Younger at 24...:eek: You'd be crazy to pass him up...

 

[Ray Finkle]

You are crazy. You'd prefer young players who have the POTENTIAL to be good (could pan out, or might not) instead of a 24 Year Old Left who is already playing at a Cy Young Level?! The age difference isn't much..and a Cy Younger at 24...:eek: You'd be crazy to pass him up...

Normally I would agree with you however I've seen some of these kids play and they are special and could possibly be very good major league players, and that's not the homer in my talking that's the fact. I'd rather keep my prospects (namely Jon Lester) and see what happens then trade them for Willis. Because like RWhitney said you'll have to unload your farm system for Willis.

Realistically to get Willis FLA would ask for two out of: Jon Lester, Craig Hansen, Jonathan Papelbon and possibly one or two of the following: Manny Delcarmen, Jacoby Ellsbury, Dustin Pedroia, Edgar Martinez, Jon Egan, David Murphy and Brandon Moss. That is WAY too costly and not worth it for the Red Sox, in my opinion. I know the Sox traded 4 prospects for Beckett, Lowell and Mota, however like I said before only Hanley really hurt the Sox (although Pedroia is looking like a good replacement for him). Anibal Sanchez was the 4th best pitching prospect in the Sox farm systen so he was expandable. The other 2 guys were A ball pitchers so who knows with them.

Call me crazy but I'd rather stick with my farm system and build towards the future with them, instead of dumping them for a pitcher (Willis) who you might have already had in Lester. Because we all know Papelbon and Hansen are the real deals.

 

[tylerdolphin]

Normally I would agree with you however I've seen some of these kids play and they are special and could possibly be very good major league players, and that's not the homer in my talking that's the fact. I'd rather keep my prospects (namely Jon Lester) and see what happens then trade them for Willis. Because like RWhitney said you'll have to unload your farm system for Willis.

Realistically to get Willis FLA would ask for two out of: Jon Lester, Craig Hansen, Jonathan Papelbon and possibly one or two of the following: Manny Delcarmen, Jacoby Ellsbury, Dustin Pedroia, Edgar Martinez, Jon Egan, David Murphy and Brandon Moss. That is WAY too costly and not worth it for the Red Sox, in my opinion. I know the Sox traded 4 prospects for Beckett, Lowell and Mota, however like I said before only Hanley really hurt the Sox (although Pedroia is looking like a good replacement for him). Anibal Sanchez was the 4th best pitching prospect in the Sox farm systen so he was expandable. The other 2 guys were A ball pitchers so who knows with them.

Call me crazy but I'd rather stick with my farm system and build towards the future with them, instead of dumping them for a pitcher (Willis) who you might have already had in Lester. Because we all know Papelbon and Hansen are the real deals.

OK. Your best case scenario with keeping Papelbon is him being the caliber of Willis. Thats the BEST case scenario. Why not trade Papelbon and a few other guys for a proven Cy Younger?

 

[King Felix]

willis won a cy young??right now id rather have papelbon and red sox farm system over just willis..

 

[phunwin]

Regardless, this is moot. Loria dispelled these rumors the other day, but it's common sense. Why trade a durable, young, left-handed, marketable, popular, intelligent, young, left-handed, star pitcher?

And don't come back and use the "they traded Beckett" argument.

OK, but is the "why on earth should anyone believe a word out of Jeff Loria's mouth" argument still fair game? Loria has no incentive whatsoever to be upfront about this if he's considering moving Willis, as it would just serve to alienate the few dozen remaining Marlins fans.

Not to mention without Willis and Migs, there is nothing to move or sell. You can't expect a city to build a stadium and put up millions/billions for a franchise that has not 1 marketable player and is hanging its hat on a farm system! The marlins are moving out of South Florida, and Migs and Wills will be part of that move since they are the only thing worth anything on any level for a city to want them.

Not true at all. The Expos/Nationals got a $400M stadium from Washington DC with...what? Livan Hernandez? Brad Wilkerson? Jose Vidro? New ownership will never be upset about inheriting a tiny payroll and a ton of young talent. Costs are low, giving them plenty of flexibility to mold the team as they see fit. A trade of Willis and/or Cabrera would not impact the sale of the Marlins in any way.

 

[RWhitney014]

OK, but is the "why on earth should anyone believe a word out of Jeff Loria's mouth" argument still fair game? Loria has no incentive whatsoever to be upfront about this if he's considering moving Willis, as it would just serve to alienate the few dozen remaining Marlins fans.

Yes, it's valid, but at the same time, common sense trumps here. Why do they need to save more money? I think MLB would have to intercede if the payroll goes sub-$10 million.

 

[Ray Finkle]

OK. Your best case scenario with keeping Papelbon is him being the caliber of Willis. Thats the BEST case scenario. Why not trade Papelbon and a few other guys for a proven Cy Younger?

I said the best case would be that Jon Lester would be equal to Willis. In my opinion I think Papelbon is going to be better than Willis.Also if Papelbon is the same caliber of Willis why would I trade him and other prospects for Willis when I have Papelbon who is equal, that doesn't make sense.

Papelbon is untouchable in my opinion. Why would I want to trade a guy in Papelbon who is proving himself to be a very good young pitcher in the short time he's been in the major leagues (both starting and closing) and also Lester who could turn into a very good MLB pitcher himself for 1 guy in Willis. I'd rather take my chances with keeping Papelbon and Lester's potential then to trade both (as well as other players)for Willis? And I love Willis, I'm a big fan of his too.

You guys can call my crazy but I have seen some of these Red Sox prospects that would possibly be involved in the deal and like I said before I think some of these kids are going to be very special and I don't want to risk it for someone we might already have in the farm system.

 

[FIN-IN-RI]

Yes, it's valid, but at the same time, common sense trumps here. Why do they need to save more money? I think MLB would have to intercede if the payroll goes sub-$10 million.

You would think so but I tend to think that there is a method to this scheme and I don't think Selig will interfere. I see him making some noise, but not going over the owners' head.

 

[phunwin]

Yes, it's valid, but at the same time, common sense trumps here. Why do they need to save more money? I think MLB would have to intercede if the payroll goes sub-$10 million.

As I said above, we're not talking about the difference between $14M and $9M, we're talking about the difference from $30-35M to about $12-15M. Florida's payroll will probably double after Cabrera and Willis hit arbitration after this year, not counting other small raises and a minor free agent signing or two. I don't think they'll trade them tomorrow, but at the deadline, I think one of them, maybe both, get moved.

As for MLB interceding, Bud Selig has repeatedly shown himself to be a pawn of the owners. If Selig steps in and essentially vetoes a trade between, say, the Marlins and Red Sox for that reason, I don't think that would go over well at all. What sort of precedent does that set for a team that's trying to improve themselves for the stretch run?

 

[RWhitney014]

As I said above, we're not talking about the difference between $14M and $9M, we're talking about the difference from $30-35M to about $12-15M. Florida's payroll will probably double after Cabrera and Willis hit arbitration after this year, not counting other small raises and a minor free agent signing or two. I don't think they'll trade them tomorrow, but at the deadline, I think one of them, maybe both, get moved.

As for MLB interceding, Bud Selig has repeatedly shown himself to be a pawn of the owners. If Selig steps in and essentially vetoes a trade between, say, the Marlins and Red Sox for that reason, I don't think that would go over well at all. What sort of precedent does that set for a team that's trying to improve themselves for the stretch run?

You all seem to think that Cabrera's going to make $8 million in his first year of arbitration next year. First of all, I think we're going to sign him long-term after this year. Second of all, if we don't, he's not going to jump to that number from $472,000, his salary (I think) for this year. That would be the largest salary ever granted to a player in arbitration. He's likely to get what Willis got this year, around $4-5 million.

 

[phunwin]

You all seem to think that Cabrera's going to make $8 million in his first year of arbitration next year. First of all, I think we're going to sign him long-term after this year. Second of all, if we don't, he's not going to jump to that number from $472,000, his salary (I think) for this year. That would be the largest salary ever granted to a player in arbitration. He's likely to get what Willis got this year, around $4-5 million.

OK, fair enough. Even if he gets $5M and Willis gets $8M, that's still a significant hike in payroll, which I'm not confident they'll pay.

I will note that I'm more confident in Cabrera hanging around than Willis. An ace pitcher has too much value to ignore, and will always fetch a king's ransom at the deadline. Teams are more interested in pitching than hitting at that time of year.

 

[FaninPatsyLand]

OK. Your best case scenario with keeping Papelbon is him being the caliber of Willis. Thats the BEST case scenario. Why not trade Papelbon and a few other guys for a proven Cy Younger?

Best case scenario for the Red Sox would be that both Papelbon and Lester would be better than Willis.

As Ray said, I think at this point both are probably untouchable in the eyes of Red Sox management.

 

[Prime Time]

Loria has actually been very good to his word....I don't think they'll be traded.

 

[MikeO]

Yes, it's valid, but at the same time, common sense trumps here. Why do they need to save more money? I think MLB would have to intercede if the payroll goes sub-$10 million.

This is why before MLB can worry about a salary cap, they need to insert a "salary basement" where owners MUST spend a certain amount on actual players. To prevent teams like the Marlins from doing what they do. And to prevent owners in KC and Cincy from taking money from profit sharing and spending it on expanding the size of the cup holders in the stadium rather on actual on field talent.