US Disqualyfied Because Of Oguchi Onyewu | Page 6 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

US Disqualyfied Because Of Oguchi Onyewu

ckb2001 said:
I think you guys are mixing up the words "athlete" and "athleticism" (these don't always go together). To say athleticism isn't as important in soccer as in football may be accurate, but that IS NOT a counter-argument to: If the best athletes in the US chose to play soccer professionally instead of other sports, the US would produce top class soccer players.

The US produces a wealth of youth soccer talent, but one thing (more than anything else) keeps us from producing top senior level talent: MONEY. Young athletes in the US know they can get rich playing baseball or football, but few kids who play soccer in the US know this (trust me, even if we here do, those kids in the inner cities generally don't - they don't see these stars on television, in the press, etc...)

So, our best athletes (this DOESN'T mean the most athletic) choose the sports where they see the most money being made. Some things seem to have changed after MLS, but nowhere near where it could be. How else do you explain the composition of the US team? In 1998, most of our players were from white middle-class families!! Today, about half are. After MLS, we see more blacks (Beasely, Onyewu, Pope, etc..) and occasional transplants from other sports (Bocanegra), but where are the Hispanics (Reyna came from outside US soccer, so only Mastroeni - another Argentinian - is the only example)??? And where are the inner-city blacks???

So, it's very likely that if our best athletes (remember this does NOT mean most athletic) chose soccer, we would be a Brazil of this sport. If you think otherwise, you're arguing something in the genetic pool of Americans could never produce top-class soccer talent (and that argument is laughable).
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Money?, go to play to Spain, England, Italy, Germany..., even to Mexico..., and I bet you money wont be a problem..., the best payed soccer players in Spain win more than A-Rod!
 
postermaster said:
Money?, go to play to Spain, England, Italy, Germany..., even to Mexico..., and I bet you money wont be a problem..., the best payed soccer players in Spain win more than A-Rod!
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Dude, read the post carefully before you respond like that. I never said there wasn't money to be made in soccer did I??

I said (with regards to JUST the money point):

1) Many American youth are usually unaware they can make that kind of money playing soccer.
2) Even if they are aware of this, these soccer stars aren't constantly being extolled in the press etc.. so they are not in the public's eye.

So, what's then the motivation for our best athletes to pursue a pro career in soccer? That's what was generally stated in my post with regards to money.
 
Arena stated that he believes our Youth needs to head over to Europe at a younger age for us to develop better. He said the obvious, but it is true, and glad someone finally came out and said it.
 
Prime Time said:
Arena stated that he believes our Youth needs to head over to Europe at a younger age for us to develop better. He said the obvious, but it is true, and glad someone finally came out and said it.
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Can you show us a link where he stated this? Arena has a history of supporting MLS as a youth development tool, saying MLS should do more for youth development. I googled this and immediately came up with one link that summarizes what he usually says (Nov 29, '05):

http://www.americansoccernews.net/usmen/05112arena.shtml

Here's some quotes:

“MLS is probably been the most important factor in our team’s development,†he said, citing DaMarcus Beasley and Landon Donovan as prime examples. “While not at the top of world leagues, it’s somewhere for our players to grow professionally, but MLS needs to be more involved in developing youth players.

“To show how backward we are in development at this point, we bring forty of our finest 15- and 16-year-old players into Bradenton from a country of 350 million people. I don’t know how many play soccer, but how many are we missing out on giving them the same kind of opportunity? Forty players have a fantastic opportunity to be come soccer players, but we are really missing out on thousands of others.â€Â



So, please post a link with Arena saying our youth need to head over to Europe at a younger age. I find this hard to believe actually, since it would contradict what he normally says.
 
ckb2001 said:
Can you show us a link where he stated this? Arena has a history of supporting MLS as a youth development tool, saying MLS should do more for youth development. I googled this and immediately came up with one link that summarizes what he usually says (Nov 29, '05):

http://www.americansoccernews.net/usmen/05112arena.shtml

Here's some quotes:

“MLS is probably been the most important factor in our team’s development,†he said, citing DaMarcus Beasley and Landon Donovan as prime examples. “While not at the top of world leagues, it’s somewhere for our players to grow professionally, but MLS needs to be more involved in developing youth players.

“To show how backward we are in development at this point, we bring forty of our finest 15- and 16-year-old players into Bradenton from a country of 350 million people. I don’t know how many play soccer, but how many are we missing out on giving them the same kind of opportunity? Forty players have a fantastic opportunity to be come soccer players, but we are really missing out on thousands of others.â€Â



So, please post a link with Arena saying our youth need to head over to Europe at a younger age. I find this hard to believe actually, since it would contradict what he normally says.
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Don't know If I can...it was something he said at a Press Conference yesterday...they showed it on the Outside the Lines Nightly segment they had last night all on US Soccer. I remember he said that because they asked Alexi Lalas If he supported the statement (and Lalas...such a homer that he is, he even admitted he was biased) said that it is not true.
 
If Donovan wants to continue to ignore his critics, he should listen to his own national team coach and the player he is slated to replace as national team captain. Bruce Arena and Reyna spoke candidly about the rewards Donovan could reap from giving up comfort and accepting the challenge of pushing himself in Europe.

"He's in a real soccer environment every day, year-round pressure," Arena said about what Donovan would gain from going back to Europe. "He'd deal with all the tough games. Even though it looks glorious from a distance, playing in Europe is a grind.

"On a daily basis, there's competition within your team. There's pressure to win games. There's promotion and relegation. It's the real thing, and in the end, the cream rises and you see the top players prevail and it positions you to be much more successful at the international level."
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There...
 
Didn't Donovan quit overseas?

My take on the failure of the US national team is simple.

In pre-Cup interviews you could sense some arrogance. Sentences like "we are as good as Brasil", "we should go at least to the semis" etc do not bold well. Not even Brasil (as pre-Cup favorite) was that arrogant.

Secondly, wrong tactics. It is no surprise that the US only scored one goal on their own. Against the Czechs the US team played back, almost scared. Guess what, the Czechs ain't that good. Against Italy they fought admirably. It was a good result with one man down. Against Ghana, the US team played to withdrawn for a team who has to win against a first time participant. Sure, the PK was not deserved and came at an inopportune time, but if you want to advance you must score more than just one goal against an african nation who was a newbee on the worldcup stage.

Essentially, it was a failure from coaching down to the players.

The US National team needs a shake up as well as MSL. You can not grow talent at home in a league which is controlled by a handfull of owners, has a centralized trading system and adopts ridiculous names like the Houston Dynamo. BTW, Dynamo is the name for soccer teams which were police and secret police clubs and military clubs in the former eastern block countries i.e. Dynamo Dresden, Dynamo Berlin, Dynamo Moscow etc.

The MSL and US Soccer have to look at the rest of the world. The best soccer is played on the copacobana and the slums of Brazil, in the court yards of Berlin, Munich, London and Rome etc. Open the market for top notch players which can be important to the development of young players in the US. As long as US Soccer puts itself in handcuffs the team will not go anywhere, any time soon.

Too bad: I rooted for two teams (my native Germany and the USA). I got only one team left.
 
You do realize we were in the hardest group in the WC?
 
Prime Time said:
There...
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OK, I guess we're talking a bit at cross-purposes. First of all, in this thread, you said you didn't agree with my post #71. But, I think you would agree nothing in that quote from Arena supports or refutes my post #71. So, I'm not sure what you're actually disagreeing with.

If we change the subject to purely what Arena thinks is most important for youth development, Arena has been a champion of MLS as the PRIMARY strategy for doing this (as the link in post #79 show), but repeatedly states the one remaining problem with MLS is the lack of competitiveness due to the small number of games.

In a different thread - US vs Ghana thread post #467 - I stated as much:

"So, what could be improved with MLS in the future? Today, most observers of MLS say it is lacking in one major component - there aren't enough games, meaning there isn't this constant pressure to compete. This relative lack of competition (the number of games), not the lack of occasional top level competition (you only play a Chelsea or Man U occasionally in the EPL), is cited by many as the biggest problem remaining in US soccer (this has been said by Arena and Klinsmann among others)."

So, when you say "Arena stated that he believes our Youth needs to head over to Europe at a younger age for us to develop better.", it's misleading. That statement sounds like Arena thinks the best strategy for improving our National Team is to send our best YOUTH players over to Europe for development and not let them first develop in MLS. Remember, Donovan is NOT youth.

Let's look at what Arena stated when Donovan = Youth (back in 2002):

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/soccer/world/2002/world_cup/news/2002/03/25/germany_us_ap/

Back then, the question was should Donovan go to Leverkusen or not.
Arena gives the example of Frankie Hejduk (who also went to Leverkusen) as an example:

"Arena also noted that defender Frankie Hejduk joined Leverkusen after a strong showing at the 1998 World Cup."

"Frankie's development has stagnated. He's not getting much playing time. It's difficult for Frankie.."

About Donovan he says:
"MLS has been great for his development,"


Also, we see Arena's thinking in Adu's decision (made only after consultation with Arena) to sign with MLS and not immediately go to Europe (he will once he is 18):
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2003/writers/grant_wahl/11/18/adu.mls/?cnn=yes

One reason was so that Adu could:
"play first-team professional soccer as a minor in the U.S., a practice forbidden in Europe to non-EU citizens by FIFA, soccer's governing body"

So, for guys like Touborg who say their own best youth players immediately go to the top clubs, legal restrictions make the situation totally different for Americans, which is one reason why almost all of our YOUTH are first developed here (either Brandenton or MLS) before testing the waters in Europe. And remember, Arena has been in charge of our youth program.
 
FFiB said:
The US National team needs a shake up as well as MSL. You can not grow talent at home in a league which is controlled by a handfull of owners, has a centralized trading system and adopts ridiculous names like the Houston Dynamo. BTW, Dynamo is the name for soccer teams which were police and secret police clubs and military clubs in the former eastern block countries i.e. Dynamo Dresden, Dynamo Berlin, Dynamo Moscow etc.
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I agree with the rest of your post, so I only quoted this part. What you say sounds good, UNTIL you look at the history of US soccer.

See, we used to have exactly the same kind of ownership structure you say we should implement now in the NASL. The primary reasons that league went bankrupt were overexpansion, spending policies (some owners outspent others by too much) and over-reliance on foreign players (had basically no home-grown talent).

Once you let clubs spend as much as they want, it's not clear first of all if the league will survive (it didn't the last time we tried this because selling soccer is not as easy as selling established sports), and more importantly, few Americans will get into the league.

So, if you want to develop American soccer players - this was the primary purpose of MLS - you can't have that kind of a structure until the league is more established (maybe in a decade it will change). MLS has so far accomplished what no other pro soccer league in the US has: it has survived, and is more or less guaranteed to do so for at least 5 years (based on the commitment of the sponsors). In order for this to have happened, we NEED single-entity (for now).

By the way, Houston Dynamo is a good name for US fans; none know the history of the name, and Houston is the energy capital of the US, hence Dynamo.
 
ckb2001 said:
I agree with the rest of your post, so I only quoted this part. What you say sounds good, UNTIL you look at the history of US soccer.

See, we used to have exactly the same kind of ownership structure you say we should implement now in the NASL. The primary reasons that league went bankrupt were overexpansion, spending policies (some owners outspent others by too much) and over-reliance on foreign players (had basically no home-grown talent).

Once you let clubs spend as much as they want, it's not clear first of all if the league will survive (it didn't the last time we tried this because selling soccer is not as easy as selling established sports), and more importantly, few Americans will get into the league.

So, if you want to develop American soccer players - this was the primary purpose of MLS - you can't have that kind of a structure until the league is more established (maybe in a decade it will change). MLS has so far accomplished what no other pro soccer league in the US has: it has survived, and is more or less guaranteed to do so for at least 5 years (based on the commitment of the sponsors). In order for this to have happened, we NEED single-entity (for now).

By the way, Houston Dynamo is a good name for US fans; none know the history of the name, and Houston is the energy capital of the US, hence Dynamo.
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NASL? Isn't that the league with Cosmos NY and the Strikers. Heck, those foreign players were washed out stars. That league was more set up to be a show and play league.

Of course over expansion is never good. And changes have to be done over time. At this stage, the only way that I see that US Soccer will internationally grow is sending players overseas, at a very young age. Send them to a camp in Europe for a couple years. Form partnerships with Clubs in Europe. They have to learn different styles of soccer.

Changes will not and can not happen overnight.

BTW, the reason why I named Houston is because the owner is also owner of a hockey team in my home town Berlin. They used to be called Dynamo Berlin..now Eisbaers Berlin. I hate them....

:sidelol:
 
FFiB said:
At this stage, the only way that I see that US Soccer will internationally grow is sending players overseas, at a very young age. Send them to a camp in Europe for a couple years. Form partnerships with Clubs in Europe. They have to learn different styles of soccer.
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Sending our players to Europe is a good idea, but sending our youth to Europe as the primary strategy for player development is not. The response I gave to Prime Time in post #84 summarizes some of the difficulties.

Primarily, the problem is we can't do this in numbers because of legal restrictions against non-Euro players. Our youth are much better served by MLS until they are older (at least over 18), at which time going over to EURO clubs (if they come calling) makes more sense than to stay here.

MLS is necessary for US player development (especially younger players) and no amount of exporting to Europe could replace it. What MLS needs is more games per season to make it more competitive.
 
What's up with Freddy Adu? How is he developing? I don't pay attention to much U.S. soccer.
 
postermaster said:
What a goal by Rafael Marquez, by far a better player than Oguchi Onyewu...
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:lol: Too bad you guys lost..


..in the Round of 16 for the fourth straight WC in a row...
 
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