Why is everyone caught up in Ryan Swope?

[Digital]

Strong hands can be learned. Just like strong arms or legs. Moreso being built than learned but, a weakness can always become a positive if you work on it, when it comes to strength. How has Marshall looked since leaving Miami? Marshall would've been a good WR, ON THE FIELD, for Tannehill. I love Eifert and want him badly. If we only have Eifert in the red zone it's no secret where we want to go. I want Justin Hunter before Austin or Swope. I don't see Swope scoring many TDs in the NFL. Austin will and I'd rather have him than Swope but, I don't want us to use our 1st on him so, we have no chance at getting him, since we'd need to use our 1st to get him. Austin is on anpother level than Swope though. I wouldn't be upset if we drafted him, I just think we need to build foundation first and I view Austin as a luxury. Percy Harvin is going to be a beast in Seattle and he may actually be the tipping point for them. He was just a great player on a Vikings team that would win nothing. He was great last year but, they still won without him when he got hurt. He was a luxury that wasn't going to help them win. Now, Seattle is already a good team. Harvin will put them over the top. We aren't there yet. Austin reminds me a lot of the type of player that Harvin is. He was a luxury that wouldn't help Minn win because they were not set in their foundation. Seattle is and are getting ready to have an explosive season. They are adding this luxury to an already stable team. We ain't them........... yet.

You say strong hands can be learned. OK, that sounds fair. But find me a few examples of WR's who did not have physically strong hands when they left college that developed strong hands in the NFL? Perhaps there are some ... but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Guys like Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, Roddy White and Steve Smith all had strong arms and hands when they left college. Typically, what we see are receivers that were strong-armed vice-grip type receivers in college continue to be that in the pros, and those that got passes broken up by physical play in college tend to continue to have that issue in the pros. They end up relying almost entirely on separation to catch, and if they can't separate, they fall out of the league. Developing a weak armed/handed receiver from college into a strong armed/handed receiver in the NFL is less common than people might initially think.

 

[Digital]

Yeah, that running style will be less effective n the NFL. Records in college mean very little. Doesn't Ryan Leaf still hold a bunch of records at WSU? Andre Ware at Houston? Tebow at Florida? J. Russell at LSU? Those records only meat something in college. They mean nothing now.

Randal Cobb is actually a good comparison but there a few differences that will be exposed in the nfl. Cobb has a better and more fluid running style. His acceleration is much better. Cobb doesn't look like he has to "START" running. He just looks like he is running as soon as he takes off. He has more moves than Swope too. Swope is good in the open field tho and takes a hit better than Cobb. That's where being a former RB comes in but, Cobb runs more smoothly. Also please understand who Nelson has throwing him the ball and remember, in GBs system, no one WR dominates. Nelson is a bad mutha- f*ck* tho(sorry) but, he is much different than Swope. Swope will be inside, Nelson is outside where that speed can be taken advantage of better. I see Swope being somewhere like Cobb but, won't score too many TDs, more like Welker though. Somewhere in between. He'll be good, we just need his good right now. I feel his speed won't get noticed much in the nfl, he will but, his speed won't. The difference between Swope and Austin is this, IMO, Austin can go to a team with bad WRs and still be very effective. Swope will need to go to a team who has a pretty stable set of WRs to be as effective as he can be. Swope or Austin are not #1 WRs(both slot guys) but, Austins' numbers have a chance to be comparable from the slot. I don't think Swope will score many TDs. Will be a very effective WR but, more of a chains mover.

Records reflect production, and in Swope's case they demonstrate production against high level collegiate competition. Also, it highlights how his production declined when he didn't have as good of a passer throwing him the ball. But, when he had a good passer like Tannehill pulling the strings, he was exceptional.

I'm with you on the Randall Cobb comparison, but I'd guess that where Cobb excelled wasn't at acceleration, but rather at initial burst. Obviously, Swope's times bested Cobb's in the 40 so he made up time somewhere, and if it wasn't in the burst then it was either in the acceleration or the top speed ... take your pick, but either is very nice for a receiver. Also, Swope outjumped Cobb in the vertical jump and the broad jump, so it might just be that Swope's burst is better than you think, because that's what those metrics are aimed at measuring. If Cobb had more burst, more acceleration, and a faster top speed, Cobb would be faster than Swope ... but the facts are that Swope was faster than Cobb. Like whichever player you like, but you can't really dispute the metrics as both of them were measured and on all of the meaningful "athletic" metrics Swope beat Cobb. Kinda like a boxer winning every round and then losing the fight ... it just doesn't add up.

Watching Swope's tape you can certainly view his running style as not aesthetically pleasing, but I can't really see how you view it as unexplosive or not-fast. He has the burst to separate, the acceleration to pull away, and the top speed to not be caught from behind. He runs good routes and catches the ball. He's a tad over 6'0 with a 37" vertical, running a 4.34 40, making him one of only like 8 or 10 players at the NFL combine to run a sub-4.4 forty. Unless you think he has a stunt-double, it's really hard to avoid calling him a special athlete. Watching his film you see that the kid simply outplays his competition and he does it effortlessly. He glides when he runs, and on film, that type of smooth athlete doesn't appear to be running as fast as they actually are. Choppy runners like Wes Welker appear to be running faster than they actually are, but Swope is the opposite. Watching him pull away from DB's though, it's easy to see that the kid has the quickness and speed to be special.

 

[mbhcu98]

You say strong hands can be learned. OK, that sounds fair. But find me a few examples of WR's who did not have physically strong hands when they left college that developed strong hands in the NFL? Perhaps there are some ... but I can't think of any off the top of my head. Guys like Anquan Boldin, Larry Fitzgerald, Andre Johnson, Julio Jones, Roddy White and Steve Smith all had strong arms and hands when they left college. Typically, what we see are receivers that were strong-armed vice-grip type receivers in college continue to be that in the pros, and those that got passes broken up by physical play in college tend to continue to have that issue in the pros. They end up relying almost entirely on separation to catch, and if they can't separate, they fall out of the league. Developing a weak armed/handed receiver from college into a strong armed/handed receiver in the NFL is less common than people might initially think.

I haven't heard Hunter has weak hands. I'm hearing he had absolutely no problems with his hands prior to the knee injury. The problems he had this year, many are putting it to a mental thing coming off his knee. I don't hear too often a WR coming out with the distinction of having weak hands as a major concern. Maybe small hands but, weak hands have never been a major concern. Weak hands is not akin to a qb having a noodle arm. The WRs you name are all stars and considering Calvin Johnson, Victor Cruz and Demaryus Thomas are some of the leaders in drops, it's a stat that isn't too much of a concern. Besides, Hunter is being profiled as a WR that can go up and get the ball. He isn't being rated a 1st or 2nd round prospect because he can't catch. There's a reason the dropped passes list changes from year to year so much. They tend to concentrate on it more after dropping a lot of passes.

 

[mbhcu98]

Records reflect production, and in Swope's case they demonstrate production against high level collegiate competition. Also, it highlights how his production declined when he didn't have as good of a passer throwing him the ball. But, when he had a good passer like Tannehill pulling the strings, he was exceptional.

I'm with you on the Randall Cobb comparison, but I'd guess that where Cobb excelled wasn't at acceleration, but rather at initial burst. Obviously, Swope's times bested Cobb's in the 40 so he made up time somewhere, and if it wasn't in the burst then it was either in the acceleration or the top speed ... take your pick, but either is very nice for a receiver. Also, Swope outjumped Cobb in the vertical jump and the broad jump, so it might just be that Swope's burst is better than you think, because that's what those metrics are aimed at measuring. If Cobb had more burst, more acceleration, and a faster top speed, Cobb would be faster than Swope ... but the facts are that Swope was faster than Cobb. Like whichever player you like, but you can't really dispute the metrics as both of them were measured and on all of the meaningful "athletic" metrics Swope beat Cobb. Kinda like a boxer winning every round and then losing the fight ... it just doesn't add up.

Watching Swope's tape you can certainly view his running style as not aesthetically pleasing, but I can't really see how you view it as unexplosive or not-fast. He has the burst to separate, the acceleration to pull away, and the top speed to not be caught from behind. He runs good routes and catches the ball. He's a tad over 6'0 with a 37" vertical, running a 4.34 40, making him one of only like 8 or 10 players at the NFL combine to run a sub-4.4 forty. Unless you think he has a stunt-double, it's really hard to avoid calling him a special athlete. Watching his film you see that the kid simply outplays his competition and he does it effortlessly. He glides when he runs, and on film, that type of smooth athlete doesn't appear to be running as fast as they actually are. Choppy runners like Wes Welker appear to be running faster than they actually are, but Swope is the opposite. Watching him pull away from DB's though, it's easy to see that the kid has the quickness and speed to be special.

I'm saying those records show production at the college level and that production means absolutely nothing. Check the players I named. How correctly did their production forecast future talent?

As far as Cobb is concerned, the off field tests mean very little as well. LOOK AT THEM ON THE FIELD, then get back to me. And again, the tests are studied for. They are not preparing for the field when they do these little tests. They are performing for the test itself. Those numbers mean little. How important do you really feel Manti T;eo's 40 time is to his playing ability? His 40 time will mean extremely little when he is on the field next season.

I never said Swope wasn't fast. He is but, in college he got to showcase his speed because the plays took him all over the field. Inside, outside, both. Swope was everywhere in college. He won't be eberywhere in the nfl. He'll be in that slot, lined up against athletes that can make up his 4.3 speed with press coverages, bumps and proper angles. His vertical is another unimportant test score. He'll need the vert when his qb makes a bad pass or must go high over the middle(you don't want to do that to much considering the concussions) but, how high he jumps will be irrelevant. He isn't a red zone threat and won't play outside much. One of the important things you say is, "Watching his film you see that the kid simply outplays his competition and he does it effortlessly". He will get nothing effortlessly in the NFL. The suggestion being he is such a good athlete he doesn't have to work as hard as others. He isn't that special in the nfl. There is a reason no nfl player ever has a 40 done EVER after the combine.... it doesn't matter. Swope is not a gliding runner. That's just a bad statement. His feet look like they hit the ground very hard and his shoulders move a lot. He does not glide when he runs. He looks like he is working when he runs. The difference in running styles between Austin- who does glide- and swope- who does not- is major. One is smooth and glides, the othe runs hard and fast and that's about it. He doesn't have many moves or "jukes". He's just fast and it is my contention, his speed won't be as big a part of his game as some think it will be. Not in the long run anyway. The longer he plays, the more he will be playing with his head than his speed.

 

[Twitches Brew]

Nice thread going on here. I tend to look at pure talent/draft-projection value rather than need/luxury. My .02...

Swope: a lot to like, but some concerns. Love his frame. Bigger for an inside guy which means he can run routes like the aforementioned Randall Cobb whose deep seam/sideline work is surprisingly good. But I don't think the Cobb comparison goes much past that and the straight speed: Cobb is quicker and is a much much better RAC guy, practically a runningback with the ball. Swope is good with a clear lane, but that's not the RAC stuff I'd look for. Have some trouble seeing Swope win enough on underneath routes in the NFL too; just don't see the quickness or hands to beat safeties regularly in your traditional shallow slot routes, and I think he could handle press better. His frame does make up for that a bit because he can box people out and keep DBs from getting around him on cuts and whenhe squares up (Cobb's very good at apthis too), but I think he could improve in using that size too. What I like most is that the dude looks like he just loves football. He's a gamer, out there creating contact and playing hard. Unfortunately that's gotten him a few concussions, which leads me to say I'd pick him in the 3rd, probably 3b. I'd prefer Stedman Bailey in the 2nd.

Hunter: being overrated, imo. Late-climber, projected as a 2-3 round pick who jumped after the combine at which he weighed 195. His frame is just too slight for me, and his game looks soft. I shudder to think of an NFL safety bearing down on this kid as he stops for a jump for a ball on the sideline. I know it was his first season back from ACL, but he just doesn't look the part for alot of contact: a little shaky over the middle, not aggressive enough beating press or after the catch, struggles to create proper space+throwing windows down the sidelines. I really wish he was better after the catch and think he can be (and was pre-knee)...just didn't show it last season. Also don't see enough wiggle in his routes or much change of speeds, mostly smooth strides (straight line) and decent cuts with great leaping. That lack of wiggle and subpar get-off against press makes me doubt how good he'll actually be in the redzone, whether he can win in tight spaces. The injury thing is tricky though, I could see a small chance of him getting back to pre-knee form when he was really good and just played tougher/more explosive all around. If you take him in the first, you're banking on him getting that old form and mentality back. I just think there's a better chance we keep seeing 2012 Hunter. 2b-3a.

 

[Digital]

I haven't heard Hunter has weak hands. I'm hearing he had absolutely no problems with his hands prior to the knee injury. The problems he had this year, many are putting it to a mental thing coming off his knee. I don't hear too often a WR coming out with the distinction of having weak hands as a major concern. Maybe small hands but, weak hands have never been a major concern. Weak hands is not akin to a qb having a noodle arm. The WRs you name are all stars and considering Calvin Johnson, Victor Cruz and Demaryus Thomas are some of the leaders in drops, it's a stat that isn't too much of a concern. Besides, Hunter is being profiled as a WR that can go up and get the ball. He isn't being rated a 1st or 2nd round prospect because he can't catch. There's a reason the dropped passes list changes from year to year so much. They tend to concentrate on it more after dropping a lot of passes.

Well when you get some time to do a little more research on Justin Hunter, whom I absolutely love as a draft prospect, lack of strength everywhere and inability to come down with the ball in traffic because of weak arms/hands are the two biggest weaknesses that you'll find. All the film shows it and all the analysts mention it if they mention weaknesses. He is a guy who is classically able to create separation in every direction. He has burst (as demonstrated with his fantastic vertical jump and broad jump), speed (as shown by his 4.44 in the 40), length and lift to go up and get the ball over defenders, tremendous ability to stop on a dime to create separation, etc. The guy has it all. But, one of the things you and I really like about the guy is that he has that length and leap to be a scary good red zone threat.

The problem with this isn't being bumped at the LOS, but when he's trying to come down with that catch in the end zone, DB's who rip & rake with strength can separate him from the ball and prevent the catch as he's coming down. That is absolutely an area where he needs to improve. Most think it's the only thing separating him from being a top 10 pick. If you think he can develop that, there's no question you take him very high in this draft.

 

[Digital]

I'm saying those records show production at the college level and that production means absolutely nothing. Check the players I named. How correctly did their production forecast future talent?

As far as Cobb is concerned, the off field tests mean very little as well. LOOK AT THEM ON THE FIELD, then get back to me. And again, the tests are studied for. They are not preparing for the field when they do these little tests. They are performing for the test itself. Those numbers mean little. How important do you really feel Manti T;eo's 40 time is to his playing ability? His 40 time will mean extremely little when he is on the field next season.

I never said Swope wasn't fast. He is but, in college he got to showcase his speed because the plays took him all over the field. Inside, outside, both. Swope was everywhere in college. He won't be eberywhere in the nfl. He'll be in that slot, lined up against athletes that can make up his 4.3 speed with press coverages, bumps and proper angles. His vertical is another unimportant test score. He'll need the vert when his qb makes a bad pass or must go high over the middle(you don't want to do that to much considering the concussions) but, how high he jumps will be irrelevant. He isn't a red zone threat and won't play outside much. One of the important things you say is, "Watching his film you see that the kid simply outplays his competition and he does it effortlessly". He will get nothing effortlessly in the NFL. The suggestion being he is such a good athlete he doesn't have to work as hard as others. He isn't that special in the nfl. There is a reason no nfl player ever has a 40 done EVER after the combine.... it doesn't matter. Swope is not a gliding runner. That's just a bad statement. His feet look like they hit the ground very hard and his shoulders move a lot. He does not glide when he runs. He looks like he is working when he runs. The difference in running styles between Austin- who does glide- and swope- who does not- is major. One is smooth and glides, the othe runs hard and fast and that's about it. He doesn't have many moves or "jukes". He's just fast and it is my contention, his speed won't be as big a part of his game as some think it will be. Not in the long run anyway. The longer he plays, the more he will be playing with his head than his speed.

OK, here's the thing. You want to discount what others see on tape and all the combine metrics. But, almost all of the NFL personnel people and the NFL draft analysts see the film and see a guy who is a special athlete with lots of speed, acceleration and burst. If you don't see that, fair enough, but the burden isn't on everyone else to convince you really ... the burden is on you to convince everybody else. Otherwise, we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is fine.

As for Swope's production, he did it against a lot of teams, including teams like Alabama, Arkansas, Oklahoma, etc. Teams that regularly recruit among the best teams and always have a slew of very fast guys. Those are the sorts of guys speed-wise that he'll face in the NFL. No doubt that the NFL are stronger, better prepared, take better angles, etc., but that's true of every prospect's opponents. What Swope proved was that against some of the best teams and players that the NCAA had to offer, he was explosive, fast, and a playmaker. For you to convince me that isn't the case, it'll take more than you just not seeing it on the tape. Otherwise, it looks like we've reached an impasse. Perhaps we should respectfully agree to disagree on this one?

We can re-visit it this time next year and probably reach consensus, but I'm not sure we can until he plays in the NFL, wherever that ends up being.

 

[finfan54]

ryan swope would be welker dangerous in bunch settings. All I can say is Wallace Hartline Gibson Mathews and Swope all over the place.

Then think Eifert split wide in one package and inline on another with Swope. WR rotations when they get tired. You know damn well with dual rep camp they will work on packages in no-huddle where we move WR packages in and out. imagine.......

Eifert and Swope or........I will take Stedman Bailey as well. Thats it. Thats all you need.

 

[Blake the great]

He isn't the WR for us. He is basically Hartline with a 4.3 40 and 2 inches shorter. We need a red zone threat with some speed. Swope is not that and he isn't the game changer Tavon Austin is at the slot. Swope won't bring anything we don't already have in Bess and Gibson. We already know those 2 can get it done in the NFL. We have no clue what Swope will do and he doesn't give us what we need. I know it feels good for certain people to see a white guy run a 4.3 but, he doesn't give us what we need. The only way I see him on our team is if we remake our WRs AGAIN and trade Bess and Gibson. Even if we do pick up Swope, we still need that 6'4", red zone threat. Swope isn't him.

Swope > Bess

he breaks tackels and is faster than bess