2021 Composite Ranking (Defense) | Page 7 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

2021 Composite Ranking (Defense)

ckparrothead

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Also Patrick Kerney, another super lengthy, lanky sort of guy.

Forget I said anything about Gunheim. Although Gunheim's issue definitely was flexibility.
 

j-off-her-doll

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He's got that really intriguing basketballer body and look to him where you don't really realize that he's as heavy as he is. I just wish he was a little bit more bendy, but I also think I wouldn't be surprised if he got into an NFL program and it started to look a little bit different that way.

If Elerson Smith is not successful because he doesn't start showing more flexibility, I think the name that comes to mind is Greyson Gunheim. Though I guess it's worth noting Gunheim wasn't nearly so tall.

But when I watch him I see a lot of Jason Taylor.

EDIT: MKRISTO BRUCE! That's the guy I've been trying to think of for weeks. Not Greyson Gunheim.

Makes sense to me. He's exceptional at redirecting without losing forward momentum, and his burst puts it over the top. I don't see a huge drop between the top guys and Smith. In general, I'm not in love with any particular Edge, but I like a lot of them, so I'd target 2a or even 2b.

The caveat? I'm not sure Miami will like the OLB Edges as fits - with the possible exception of Ossai, but even he might not be linebackery enough for their taste. Parsons and Collins are the obvious fits, because they're linebackers first who can rush some off the edge.

I'd be really surprised if Miami, for example, took Ojulari at 18. I see it mocked kinda often since Miami cut Van Noy and moved on from Lawson, but guys like Ojulari, Smith, and even Ossai are between the two as fits imo, and that might mean Miami doesn't see them as great fits at all.

I think Oweh has the frame to grow into a true DE in this D, and he's really good vs the run with upside as a pass rusher, so I could see them liking him. Of the guys Miami might be able to get after 2a, Payton Turner stands out as an ideal fit at DE. It's also possible they don't see the need as especially pressing, so they'll look to add developmental bodies in the 3rd or later - as there is a sizable group of big, long DE's who are varying degrees of good.

Looking at media and even Dolphins-specific media (present company excluded), they don't seem to understand the types of players the D likes at DE and OLB or how the D typically values those positions. One of the benefits of running a D that uses a lot of tweeners is that they don't fit as well in most D's, so you expect to get those positions at a discount.
 

ckparrothead

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I think Jayson Oweh is already a very good football player who is under-appreciated for what he's doing from a football standpoint that helps you win games, and I see that only getting better because obviously he's also a ridiculous, ridiculous specimen.

Overall, I am actually a bit wary on the edge class, and I think the NFL are as well.

They showed it in the free agency contracts of Leonard Williams, Shaq Barrett, Bud Dupree, Leonard Floyd, Trey Hendrickson, Carl Lawson, Matt Judon, Romeo Okwara, J.J. Watt, and Yannick Ngakoue. These guys got PAID while the wide receivers got SQUEEZED. Why? It's because of how much better the NFL are viewing the wide receiver class than the edge class. They don't want to have to rely on one of these draft prospects in the late-1st or Day 2.

But I do think if there's a guy that I'm willing to carve out an exception for in my overall thesis of a weak edge class, it's probably Jayson Oweh.

And yes I also really like Azeez Ojulari, Elerson Smith, and Cam Sample. I'd be fine rolling the dice on Greg Rousseau, high upside potential.

I think Jaelan Phillips, Kwity Paye, Carlos Basham, and Joseph Ossai look like solid players. You're gonna get what you're gonna get. But I'm not so sure it's all that dissimilar from what you're going to get from Dayo Odeyingbo, Joshua Kaindoh, or Payton Turner at a far cheaper price. And I'm not sure you couldn't hit paydirt real cheap with guys like Quincy Roche, Janarius Robinson, Daelin Hayes, or Rashad Weaver.

So overall...I do see the limitations. But to my thinking right now, the one exception I'm going to pull out of that group and say, this is the guy that does well, while the rest of the class is going to be very hit-or-miss...it's Jayson Oweh.
 

Gatorboy999120

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I think Jayson Oweh is already a very good football player who is under-appreciated for what he's doing from a football standpoint that helps you win games, and I see that only getting better because obviously he's also a ridiculous, ridiculous specimen.

Overall, I am actually a bit wary on the edge class, and I think the NFL are as well.

They showed it in the free agency contracts of Leonard Williams, Shaq Barrett, Bud Dupree, Leonard Floyd, Trey Hendrickson, Carl Lawson, Matt Judon, Romeo Okwara, J.J. Watt, and Yannick Ngakoue. These guys got PAID while the wide receivers got SQUEEZED. Why? It's because of how much better the NFL are viewing the wide receiver class than the edge class. They don't want to have to rely on one of these draft prospects in the late-1st or Day 2.

But I do think if there's a guy that I'm willing to carve out an exception for in my overall thesis of a weak edge class, it's probably Jayson Oweh.

And yes I also really like Azeez Ojulari, Elerson Smith, and Cam Sample. I'd be fine rolling the dice on Greg Rousseau, high upside potential.

I think Jaelan Phillips, Kwity Paye, Carlos Basham, and Joseph Ossai look like solid players. You're gonna get what you're gonna get. But I'm not so sure it's all that dissimilar from what you're going to get from Dayo Odeyingbo, Joshua Kaindoh, or Payton Turner at a far cheaper price. And I'm not sure you couldn't hit paydirt real cheap with guys like Quincy Roche, Janarius Robinson, Daelin Hayes, or Rashad Weaver.

So overall...I do see the limitations. But to my thinking right now, the one exception I'm going to pull out of that group and say, this is the guy that does well, while the rest of the class is going to be very hit-or-miss...it's Jayson Oweh.
100% agreed..edge class is weak!
 

j-off-her-doll

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I think Jayson Oweh is already a very good football player who is under-appreciated for what he's doing from a football standpoint that helps you win games, and I see that only getting better because obviously he's also a ridiculous, ridiculous specimen.

Overall, I am actually a bit wary on the edge class, and I think the NFL are as well.

They showed it in the free agency contracts of Leonard Williams, Shaq Barrett, Bud Dupree, Leonard Floyd, Trey Hendrickson, Carl Lawson, Matt Judon, Romeo Okwara, J.J. Watt, and Yannick Ngakoue. These guys got PAID while the wide receivers got SQUEEZED. Why? It's because of how much better the NFL are viewing the wide receiver class than the edge class. They don't want to have to rely on one of these draft prospects in the late-1st or Day 2.

But I do think if there's a guy that I'm willing to carve out an exception for in my overall thesis of a weak edge class, it's probably Jayson Oweh.

And yes I also really like Azeez Ojulari, Elerson Smith, and Cam Sample. I'd be fine rolling the dice on Greg Rousseau, high upside potential.

I think Jaelan Phillips, Kwity Paye, Carlos Basham, and Joseph Ossai look like solid players. You're gonna get what you're gonna get. But I'm not so sure it's all that dissimilar from what you're going to get from Dayo Odeyingbo, Joshua Kaindoh, or Payton Turner at a far cheaper price. And I'm not sure you couldn't hit paydirt real cheap with guys like Quincy Roche, Janarius Robinson, Daelin Hayes, or Rashad Weaver.

So overall...I do see the limitations. But to my thinking right now, the one exception I'm going to pull out of that group and say, this is the guy that does well, while the rest of the class is going to be very hit-or-miss...it's Jayson Oweh.

Could see it, definitely respect it. The WR class is stacked, so the Edge group looks bad by comparison, and agree that teams definitely factored in the difference when paying FA's, but while it's relatively bad at the top, I think it's thick with guys who will probably be pretty good with some tools that give them a chance to be much more. I have Oweh in that group with the others, but he's at the top.

To your point, though, I think Payton Turner probably gives you more bang for your buck, especially for Miami. I think they can afford to look for value/fits.

Not sure about OL, but WR is going to be rough in 2022, so Miami should load up on weapons like they need to play Kansas City tomorrow. They have the picks to do that and improve the D with value/fit picks. Would love to sneak in guys like Elijah Molden and Eric Stokes, too, but priority #1 has to be building a team that can outscore anyone. Fuller is a fantastic start, and Miami needs to stay with that energy - dynamic weapons/good football players. Any of the Top 3 or Pitts would be huge. Adding 2 of the 4 is a dream scenario - particularly Pitts with Smith or Waddle.

When you traded Tunsil, this is the kind of advantage you were hoping for. The ability to go over the top on the most important aspect of the team - the passing game - while maintaining the resources necessary to build a complete football team is a dream scenario.
 

rickd13

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The more I watch Ossai, the more i like him. As a pure edge rusher he hasn't cemented R1 status, but his work rate vs the run, chasing down QBs, covering RBs and TEs is nothing less than elite. It's exhausting watching him. It's like there's 4 of him out there. I don't know how he doesn't collapse from exhaustion. In a 3-4 he could be a star. I could see NE snap him up. He'd be in play for me at 18.
He is my favorite option out of all the edge guys for Miami. I don't understand why he is projected so low in many mock drafts. What am I missing?
 

jimthefin

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I am not going to change how I feel about Oweh because of a workout. We knew he was an incredible athlete already. We also knew he did not make very many plays when asked to actually play football.

Works out like a 1st Rounder, plays like a 3rd round pick. At best.

As for Ossai I think what people like about him is his incredible attitude and motor to go with his athletic traits.

He looks like the type who will really improve at the NFL level due to his desire and work ethic.

He won't test like Oweh but he will end up being a better player, probably a much better player.

Oweh should have exploded off the TV screen with all that physical talent.

The history of these fly up the charts after working out dudes is pretty poor, but he does win the Mike Mamula Award so far this year.
 

j-off-her-doll

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I am not going to change how I feel about Oweh because of a workout. We knew he was an incredible athlete already. We also knew he did not make very many plays when asked to actually play football.

Works out like a 1st Rounder, plays like a 3rd round pick. At best.

As for Ossai I think what people like about him is his incredible attitude and motor to go with his athletic traits.

He looks like the type who will really improve at the NFL level due to his desire and work ethic.

He won't test like Oweh but he will end up being a better player, probably a much better player.

Oweh should have exploded off the TV screen with all that physical talent.

The history of these fly up the charts after working out dudes is pretty poor, but he does win the Mike Mamula Award so far this year.

How high are people moving him? To me, he's always been a Top 40 prospect. There's no risk of Oweh being a liability for you D. He won't be bad. He's not going to be Charles Harris. At worst, you get a solid player with freakish athleticism. There's value in that floor.

He might never develop into a good pass rusher, but if he does, his athleticism increases his ceiling, and there's value in that. He also shares a lot of similarities with other guys who received similar criticism - Ziggy Ansah, Danielle Hunter, Frank Clark. He's physical, excellent against the run, and very active. Like those players, his role didn't do him any favors (in terms of piling up sacks).

So, while I think there's a real chance he never cashes in on all that physical potential, people pushing him out of the Top 40 are underestimating him as a value proposition - as well as a player.
 

ckparrothead

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In 2019, Jayson Oweh's pass rush win rate was elite at 20.3%. But he was bad against the run, only 5 run stops on 123 run snaps.

So in 2020, he focused on becoming a more complete player. As a result his run stop rate (21 run stops on 167 run snaps) was elite (3rd among all edge players in the country)...and his pass rush win rate fell a bit from 20.3% to a still very good 16.6%.

He also did heavy lifting designed to free up other pass rushers, because of the attention he drew from blockers.

People who actually study him on tape have a sense of these things already. Those who watch the games casually and then check the stat sheet, probably don't.
 

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In 2019 his run stop was 4.1%. And 12.6% in 2020. Bad then elite. So is it safe to assume 6% to 9% is average? That's a lot of eval in a small percentage. Either way I like him.
 

ckparrothead

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In 2019 his run stop was 4.1%. And 12.6% in 2020. Bad then elite. So is it safe to assume 6% to 9% is average? That's a lot of eval in a small percentage. Either way I like him.

If what you're getting at is sample size then that's fair.

But that's also like saying that a guy who got 5 sacks one year and then 21 sacks the next year didn't necessarily take a step up in his pass rush. Well, he probably did and the film probably bears that out. In this case with Oweh, I think it does.
 

Da 'Fins

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In 2019, Jayson Oweh's pass rush win rate was elite at 20.3%. But he was bad against the run, only 5 run stops on 123 run snaps.

So in 2020, he focused on becoming a more complete player. As a result his run stop rate (21 run stops on 167 run snaps) was elite (3rd among all edge players in the country)...and his pass rush win rate fell a bit from 20.3% to a still very good 16.6%.

He also did heavy lifting designed to free up other pass rushers, because of the attention he drew from blockers.

People who actually study him on tape have a sense of these things already. Those who watch the games casually and then check the stat sheet, probably don't.

When I watched the Ohio St and Michigan games, especially OSU, Oweh was doubled a lot! In both run and pass pro.
 

djphinfan

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jmo, I wouldn’t consider him at #18..I mean I know he got a real late start when it comes to playing this game but the lack of awareness sometimes scares me away from18..
 
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