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A Griese thread that may get me in trouble

DOLFANMIKE

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Ok.......
Let me start this off by saying that I have no preference about who our QB is in Miami. I like what 've seen in Jay Fiedler when he is healthy for the most part, but I also do not believe he has played so well that it is a certainty that he will remain our starter (all season). I've said before that my biggest concern with Jay is that he has not shown the durability to play all season. Maybe Dan Marino spoiled me, but I think if a QB misses 4-6 games per season that has a major effect on a teams ability to score point and move the ball. That said, If Jay is going to get his big contract payday a big part of it is not only playing well (IMO), but also staying healthy this season. His age isn't helping him, and if he misses 4 games this year it will be the 3rd or 4th time in as many years that he's missed too many games, and I think that will lead to his departure following the year. On the other hand, if he plays well, and leads us deep into the playoffs, or to a SB victory, he'll likely get his payday and remain our guy.
However, I'm going to go on record and say I think he is likely to miss another 4 or so games this year, likely mid or end of season.
To me, another injury is unacceptable (I understand nothing he can control), and I do think he'll try to play hurt (He likely wont play well if he does as his talent level isnt such that he could do that) and it will go downhill from there. If he goes down mid or late season, that will give Griese time to learn the system more, and I suspect we'll see alot of Griese this Pre season. Far more than a #2 QB usually gets to go....just a hunch.
I watched our Denver game again today, and I watched alot of Griese rather than just the Fins. I was impressed. His first half in particular left me with a feeling that if all things were even knowledge wise (which they are not) that I'd prefer him as a starter over Jay.
The things that impressed me about him were qualites that our system emphasizes. His play-action fakes were OUTSTANDING. Far better not only than Jay's, but I'd say he has to be the best, or one of the best play action fake QB's in the league. I'd encourage any of you with that game tape to watch for your self and see. He is great there.
I also thought his reads were excellent, and quick. He gave the Broncos players the ball so quickly on those mid and underneath routes that they had big opportunities to do something with the ball. That quality can't be overlooked when evaluating this guy. Making throws so that the guy doesnt have to slow down makes plays Dolfans, and Griese does it well. Joe Montana made the HOF doing just that. It was his mind and accuracy that made him special. Count how many times Brian's throws were perfectly in stride to his receiver or RB in the first half alone. The guy was being harrassed by Taylor and co. all game, and throwing against the best CB tandom in the NFL (IMO) and he looked great. He was also facing the most blitz happy play calling scheme we showed all year. He still shined. I found myself watching slowly saying to myself, If I'm totally honest, and this is how Griese usually plays (Which I do not know for certain, havent watched him enough)...then I'd have to say we're better with Brian (once he knows the system).
I also thought Brian had more zip on the ball (Before Jay was injured) and that he was able to throw those short routes at a masterful level. Far superior to Jay. I think he's just a little stronger armed than Jay, and I also think he's more accurate. Add to that his Play Action ability, and I see an upgrade at QB if he can lead us.
I'm not on the "Start Griese" band wagon, but I call them like I see them. Both QB's make throws they shouldn't, but then again don't they all. Both guys showed the ability to lead a comeback successfully, and the rest I observed I listed here already.
I can't say enough how much I was impressed by his play action fake, and I am surprised not to have read more about it here already. Check it out if you have the game Dolfans and let me know what you think of what I observed.

To finish this, I'll say if Jay goes down this year, I will not be surprised to see a Brady/Bledsoe deal pop up where we play very well with Brian and decide to stay with him. But I do understand Wanny's loyalty to Jay. However, Wanny also brought in Brian, so the guy is also Wanny's Guy......I'm sure Wanny wants a SB more than he wants to make Jay's Xmas list anyhow if he comes to believe Brian gives us an edge.
One wildcard I will add to this though is this : Jay is a competitor. I won't be surprised to see him have his best year this season with Brian on his back waiting......Jay fought hard to make the NFL, and harder to start. He won't back down.

We'll see soon enough.
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I'm impressed. This is the first post I've read that has clearly stated, and used examples of how Griese may be the better QB. I don't know enough about Griese to argue, but I think you're absolutely correct on the Bledsoe/Brady comparison. If Jay does go down again, I think he'll be down for good. A good QB not only has talent, but stays healthy IMO. Jay has the necessary talent, he just needs to do things on the field to prevent himself from getting hurt as often.......
 
Originally posted by Bazinet37
I'm impressed. This is the first post I've read that has clearly stated, and used examples of how Griese may be the better QB. I don't know enough about Griese to argue, but I think you're absolutely correct on the Bledsoe/Brady comparison. If Jay does go down again, I think he'll be down for good. A good QB not only has talent, but stays healthy IMO. Jay has the necessary talent, he just needs to do things on the field to prevent himself from getting hurt as often.......

Thanks. I tend to be overly loyal as a fan, but as I watched that game with an emphasis on watching Brian, rather than just our Defense, I came away very impressed. I kind of went into it thinking "I'd see Jay is the better of the two" and came out surprised the other way.
The other thing I didnt mention is that Brian is also a former Pro Bowler, and I believe National Champion QB at Michigan (Might be wrong on that),....but I know he had a great college career and led Michigan to many big wins. He's also young, but has experience. Seems like a great fit for us......Another issue with him is also related to health though......can Brian stay healthy? He also has injury questions.....
 
Do you think Fiedler's injury problems can be prevented? What I see is Jay working hard for the extra yard, which is great, but he puts his body at risk doing so. For example, the rotator cuff in 2001. He was trying to catch himself with his elbow while being tackled, a huge no-no down here in camp. I think if he was more careful with fundamentals like that, he'd stay healthier......
 
Originally posted by Bazinet37
Do you think Fiedler's injury problems can be prevented? What I see is Jay working hard for the extra yard, which is great, but he puts his body at risk doing so. For example, the rotator cuff in 2001. He was trying to catch himself with his elbow while being tackled, a huge no-no down here in camp. I think if he was more careful with fundamentals like that, he'd stay healthier......

I really don't think there is much that can be done. Take that element out of Jays game and he isn't as good. The fact is some guys are more injury prone than others. I found in both my own playing and coaching experience that sometimes the Big, Fast stud that gets hurt all the time isnt as valuable as the little slow guy that will never come out and plays just as well through his injuries. I think Jay's ability and smarts are NFL level...but I don't think his body is NFL durable. Think about how many injuries the guy has had......its a ton! I'm not trying to put Fiedler down, he's a warrior, but the injury thing is costing us. It cost us a playoff appearance and Division Title last season, and homefield the season before that, and the one before that.
 
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Mike...

Very interesting observations, but you've mistakenly overstated the extent to which Fiedler has missed games. I also doubt Fiedler has a Xmas list.;)

If Jay gets it done, I'm all for his staying in. But if injuries or questionable performance become substantive issues, then what you've noted about Griese sure looks reassuring.
 
Originally posted by DOLFANMIKE
I've said before that my biggest concern with Jay is that he has not shown the durability to play all season.

the guy played in 37 of the first 38 regular season games that he was a phin prior to that fluke broken thumb that could have happened to anybody.

How much more durable do you want the guy to be?
 
I think the fact that Brian Griese has missed more games than Jay because of injury should be brought up as well.

He isn't exactly a guy who never gets hurt either.

87
 
Mike...good post. My sentiments exactly.

As a fan, I'll take a proven over an unknown every time. How can anyone argue with Jays heart and desire? I have become a fan of Jay for those reasons.

I like his competitiveness and unfortunatly that very thing has put him on the sideline with injury.

If Brian can come in and outright win the position then I'm all for it. I hope the competition at QB makes us a better team. May the best man win.
 
The problem with Fiedler, is not his durability, the guy have showed he has a heart, but that when he is not 100% healthy his performance drops, as we have seen with his elbow injury 2 years ago, and when he returned to play after thumb injury last year, but with no proven backup, the phins had no choice but to play Fiedler.
This is where Griese in my opinion gives us an upgrade, the quality between both I think is similar.
 
dolfanmike, you hit it right on the money...i dont care who starts as long as the team wins...i just like the fact that if jay goes down or struggles griese is waiting in the wings...my question to everybody is would we have gone 2-4 last year with griese instead of lucas??? no way!!!!!and we probably make a super bowl run...
 
My sentiments exactly, Mike. I've watched the the Denver game a thousand times. And I came away impressed.

Also, Jay played 37 of 38. But that doesn't mean he's durable. Just tough.

In 2000, he missed training camp with that hip injury, which set him WAY back. Then he tore up those shoulders 3/4 of the way thru the season. He only missed one game, but he was nowhere near 80% most of the season.

2001 was his durable year, playing every game. And he says that a reason for it was that he focused on bulking up that offseason.

Last year he messed up a hip again...missing lots of summer and training camp. Then he tore ligaments in his finger. Kept playing. Then broke the thumb. Then had tendonitis in the elbow the rest of the year.

Everybody gets hurt. But he gets hurt more often. He's one of the toughest QBs out there. But we need him healthy. He has said that he's going to be like the '00/'01 offseason and focus on bulking up again this time around.

Brian isn't the picture of health either. His shoulders get hurt every year with similar injuries.
 
I think raphinmx has it right. Its not so much how Fiedler has the tendancy to miss games due to injury, its his tendancy to get injured period. I understand this is not a gentle sport and everyone is usually playing with SOME kind of injury and pain but Fiedler has had more than his share.

Lets see. He's dislocated both shoulders (in one season), torn his rotator cuff, had to have hip surgery on both hips, and he's broken his thumb. All 6 injuries were significant, because even if they didn't prevent him from playing in games, they either caused him to miss a significant amount of prep time prior to the season, or they CLEARLY (watch the tapes) affected his game play during the season. Mike is right in that Fiedler is not a guy that is so talented that he's going to play through injuries and come off it ok. I seem to remember in 2000 Fiedler having some downright aweful (see Bucs) games after he'd taken one of his injuries.

In the past though, he didn't have to worry because our backup QBs were Damon Huard (who lost the starting job before Fiedler even took a snap) and Ray Lucas. Now, if Fiedler starts missing training camp or preseason time or he gets injured during the season, he's got a guy who is VERY capable waiting in the wings and if he gets in the game and all the sudden the Norv Turner offense starts shaping up to how it should look, Fiedler may not see the field again. Griese gives us the ability to demand good play from our QB regardless of injury.

Ya know, Denver could be a good example of what I'm talkin about. Cuz if Al Wilson had caught that feeble duck instead of popping it up so that Dedric Ward could make that incredibly lucky conversion, we might be singing a different tune about Fiedler continuing to play the game despite having a broken thumb. Just a thought...
 
That's what I've been saying too. I'm glad we have Griese and not Lucas.\


Ozzy rules!!
 
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