A Griese thread that may get me in trouble

[phins_4_ever]

Originally posted by DOLFANMIKE
Ok.......
Let me start this off by saying that I have no preference ....


......Jay fought hard to make the NFL, and harder to start. He won't back down.

We'll see soon enough.

I'll bite again...here is my paste and copy as I responded on the other board to your post....

Jay doesn't miss 4-6 games per year. He missed last year a few games because of a broken thumb not some "JJJ syndrome" (where is my hammy).

In 2000 I believe he missed 1 game and none in 2001.

The Bledsoe/Brady comparison would also not apply if Jay wins and gets injured. Bledsoe was losing. I believe his starting record that year was 1-2 or 1-3.The Pats went on a winning streak with Brady. The only way you could compare both situations is if Jay was losing and then gets injured.

You can point out a few games here and there for each QB where you say "oh what a QB". You can also point out a few plays for each QB and you will say "oh what a bonehead". The only thing so far I've seen is that the team is a different team with Jay at QB. You toss all the stats in the world out and point to many games but the fact remains that somehow when Jay is under center the team plays differently - more focused. Jay's ability to forget about a bad play and continue to play focused is one of the biggest positive attributes for this team. On the other hand, even with the sporadic good play by Brian it was obviously not enough for the Broncos to keep Brian - rather replacing him with a 69 career QBR journey man.

Playing QB is much more about passing. It is about leading a team. Until Brian does not display any attributes other than sporadic he will not start - not here not anywhere.

The name Griese gave him the probowl but it won't give him a continous starting spot.

Here is the NFL disclaimer on their QBR page:

It is important to remember that the system is used to rate passers, not quarterbacks. Statistics do not reflect leadership, play-calling, and other intangible factors that go into making a successful professional quarterback.

As long as we win I do not care who the QB is. That has always been my position.

 

[phins_4_ever]

Originally posted by DOLFANMIKE


Thanks. I tend to be overly loyal as a fan, but as I watched that game with an emphasis on watching Brian, rather than just our Defense, I came away very impressed. I kind of went into it thinking "I'd see Jay is the better of the two" and came out surprised the other way.
The other thing I didnt mention is that Brian is also a former Pro Bowler, and I believe National Champion QB at Michigan (Might be wrong on that),....but I know he had a great college career and led Michigan to many big wins. He's also young, but has experience. Seems like a great fit for us......Another issue with him is also related to health though......can Brian stay healthy? He also has injury questions.....

Oh Mike...as a coach you should know that being on a championship team not neccessarly brings success in the NFL ie. Weinke, Ericson, Walsh, Dorsey..should I go on?

Probowler...big fluke. I think it was the first time that any QB made the probowl playing only 10 games. Based on that philosophy I can pick any QB's 10 game stretch at any given time over his career and say "he is probowl caliber".

You of all should know how much football fans wallow in sentiments:
- He carried the last name of a HOFer
- He followed a legend
- He had 10 good games

I bet a lot of Wolverines fans gave him his endorsement as well.

 

[Muck]

Originally posted by ckparrothead
Ya know, Denver could be a good example of what I'm talkin about. Cuz if Al Wilson had caught that feeble duck instead of popping it up so that Dedric Ward could make that incredibly lucky conversion, we might be singing a different tune about Fiedler continuing to play the game despite having a broken thumb. Just a thought...

I don't think it was a duck. It looked like a deliberate tight spiral placed nicely between 4 defenders. Al Wilson almost snagged it. But regardless, it was a tough throw that had to be attempted with 15 seconds left.

 

[PhinPhan1227]

Re: Re: A Griese thread that may get me in trouble

Originally posted by Barbarian


the guy played in 37 of the first 38 regular season games that he was a phin prior to that fluke broken thumb that could have happened to anybody.

How much more durable do you want the guy to be?

He didn't miss games, but that doesn't mean he was healthy. Don't forget that he played the entire 2nd half of his 1st season with busted up shoulders. The guy has a giant pair of brass ones, but he DOES get hurt a lot.

 

[relive1972]

Just a word of caution about Griese, he really struggles on 3rd downs. That's not just sour grapes out of Denver, his stats reflect that. On 3rd downs he's almost a full 30 points below Jay in QBR. Being that we are a running team, and in the 2nd half in particular, mostly throw only on 3rd downs, I'm wondering how he's going to handle it if he's having to fill in? Maybe Norv can teach him something Shanahan couldn't. Let's hope so.

 

[BroncoFox]

I really don't know if Brian is a better QB than Jay, I've not seen Jay play enought games to make that determination. But I CAN say since I've watched every game that Griese has played, that I firmly believe he is NO ones long term answer for the QB position. You've touted ALL his strengths in your post.. all 2 of them.

I never thought of Jake Plummer as a super QB, but I'm thrilled he is starting in Denver, and that's saying something. =)

Brian does throw short passes very quickly, and very accurately, if he has decent protection.

He DOES do a VERY pretty fake.

He also knows the gameplan inside and out. Very smart guy.

Those are his strengths.

His weaknesses? That would be his arm strength, his inability to scramble (I usually compare him to a rock in a stupor =) ), his complete lack of leadership abilities (players have to talk HIM up on the sidelines.. as he sulks on the defensive bench after doing poorly), his inaccuracy on the long ball (short the first year.. now always throws long, only completed one long TD pass in all his years in Denver), his duarability, his off field problems.. etc. etc.

I think if you have the perfect system around him, he could do well. Unforunately, it really has to be perfect, or he suffers. He is NOT a playmaker. He has absolutely no playmaking ability (which is why I got terribly bored watching him play, and am excited about Jake coming into Denver). When a key OL went down last year, he started to fall apart again. He can't handle even one guy getting into the backfield in most cases, and absolutely folds if more than one gets by.

And I was SO on his bandwagon until about the middle of last year. Two years ago, I thought he was 'getting into his own head'. He sets himself up for failure. He doesn't get better when the pressure is on, or if he screws up, he gets worse, and he chokes. I finally gave up on him last year. It seemed we had to have the PERFECT team to make him work. I really don't want to see the entire team dismantled and rebuilt just so one guy can play to his potential. And his total lack of leadership is dismaying. He wasn't even named the offensive captain last year, until about 6 games in. He was playing pretty good to this point (i.e. everyone was healthy, and he was really great at throwing a bajillion 2 to 7 yard passes), but then the olineman got hurt, and he fell apart.

The last game was a great indicator of what happens when the pressure is on. I don't think it has anything to do with Elway, the coach, or anything else. He simply can't handle the pressure, and he folds. The last game of last year I think was pretty much the measuring stone. It was well known to all the fans, the players, and Griese, that the Raider game was the going to be a huge determining factor on Brian's future in Denver. Well, I think he knew this.. and classic Brian, he choked worse than ever before, and was benched. Brrrline, our old, aging QB comes in and almost catches us up with some inspired play.

I think Brian DOES play well from the bench. I think your best bet is that Jay stays healthy (or you find another QB), and Brian can be there if something happens, on a short term basis. But again, I don't know.. Jay may be worse than this? I would find it hard to believe, but if so, you are in a world of hurt. ; )

BroncoFox

 

[ckparrothead]

No matter what Muck it was an ill-conceived throw that could easily have resulted in a loss and everyone questioning why Fiedler would insist on staying in the game despite a broken thumb. I'm sorry, I saw the pass too, and the notion that Fiedler placed a tightly thrown spiral between four defenders in a good spot is just not a fair assessment of that throw.

The difference between Weinke, Ericson, Walsh, and Griese is that unlike the first 3, Brian Griese followed up his National Championship with a pro bowl performance in the NFL.

You do not seem to remember the year that Griese went to the Pro Bowl FFiB. I do. Griese deserved it, there was no doubt. He had one of the best TD/INT ratios in the HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE. I'm sorry but your attempt to disregard that entire episode of his career based on his name alone seems to me a little...well, I'll say "unfair" to prevent a fight. You go ahead and do some research and try and find me some other QBs who had a 10 game stretch where they threw 19 TDs and only 4 picks. Go ahead. Fact of the matter is Griese was doing unbelievable in that season for a very long time and then suffered an injury that ended it but it doesn't change the fact that everyone pegged him as a pro bowler throughout the season based on his production and not his name. I'm sorry but I just dont think names mean all that much in this sport. Hardly anyone thinks of Archie Manning when they think of Peyton Manning. And when I'm sitting here looking at 19 TDs and 4 picks over 10 games, and the name of Griese, if I'm wondering which one played a much much much larger role in Brian being selected to the pro bowl, I'd say it was the 19/4 TD/INT ratio.

 

[K-Rob]

I'm not here to back up either of the two QB's, but I will share the only "inside" information that I have to give. I live in Colorado and worked with the father of an O-Lineman for the Broncos. I asked him about Griese because I was curious what he was like from the team's perspective and also because my high school (Braddock) played against his (Columbus). He pointed out the issue with lack of leadership. At the time G. Ferrotte was the backup and he told me that when Griese went down with an injury that they felt more comfortable with Gus in there instead of Brian. He pointed out that Griese seemed to distance himself from the team and seemed kind of cold to the other players. There was simply no passion when he was in there.

Personally, I can't wait to see what happens this year because the way I see it, it can only bring positive things to the team and the whole "Father/Son - Storybook" factor add a nice twist, but I just don't like that assessment, especially when it comes from within the team.

 

[phins_4_ever]

Originally posted by ckparrothead
No matter what Muck it was an ill-conceived throw that could easily have resulted in a loss and everyone questioning why Fiedler would insist on staying in the game despite a broken thumb. I'm sorry, I saw the pass too, and the notion that Fiedler placed a tightly thrown spiral between four defenders in a good spot is just not a fair assessment of that throw.

The difference between Weinke, Ericson, Walsh, and Griese is that unlike the first 3, Brian Griese followed up his National Championship with a pro bowl performance in the NFL.

You do not seem to remember the year that Griese went to the Pro Bowl FFiB. I do. Griese deserved it, there was no doubt. He had one of the best TD/INT ratios in the HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE. I'm sorry but your attempt to disregard that entire episode of his career based on his name alone seems to me a little...well, I'll say "unfair" to prevent a fight. You go ahead and do some research and try and find me some other QBs who had a 10 game stretch where they threw 19 TDs and only 4 picks. Go ahead. Fact of the matter is Griese was doing unbelievable in that season for a very long time and then suffered an injury that ended it but it doesn't change the fact that everyone pegged him as a pro bowler throughout the season based on his production and not his name. I'm sorry but I just dont think names mean all that much in this sport. Hardly anyone thinks of Archie Manning when they think of Peyton Manning. And when I'm sitting here looking at 19 TDs and 4 picks over 10 games, and the name of Griese, if I'm wondering which one played a much much much larger role in Brian being selected to the pro bowl, I'd say it was the 19/4 TD/INT ratio.

The first paragraph shows that you are biased and all the rest of your opinions on the QB situation rendered obsolete.

15 seconds to go...you are down by 1 point you need 20 or so yards to go to give Mare a chance to kick a FG. The defense falls back knowing that the offense will have to go about 20 yards in one pass play. A QB HAS to throw into double, triple and quadruple coverage. Marino made a living zipping the ball through defender's hands.

The ball was zipped through a defenders arms to D Ward who was sitting in the middle of 4 defenders. That ball was not only zipped but it was zipped with a broken thumb. There was no other play available. Run was not an option ...a shorter pass was not an option, the backs doubled our receivers downfield following step by step..Dedric went where he was suppose to go and Jay delivered with a zip. He throws the ball to high it goes over the receiver as well.....

I am sure you are one fo those "fans" who was actually pissed that this was a completion. You'd rather see an incomplete pass or an INT to have seen Lucas got his chance...well you got that anyways.

 

[DOLFANMIKE]

Originally posted by Phan4Ever
Mike...

Very interesting observations, but you've mistakenly overstated the extent to which Fiedler has missed games. I also doubt Fiedler has a Xmas list.

If Jay gets it done, I'm all for his staying in. But if injuries or questionable performance become substantive issues, then what you've noted about Griese sure looks reassuring.

I failed to mention that in his first season most of the time he missed was Preseason, but I still think that set us back as an Offensive unit. I belieive he missed almsot the entire Preseason and again some time in the Regular season (Huard beat the Colts that year....)
So saying he was healthy in his first year isnt quite true. He played injured most the year and it was one of the reason some of his poor play that year were tolerated.
If I remember, he had two hip injuries, a back injury, and a shoulder injury season 1 alone.

 

[phins_4_ever]

Originally posted by ckparrothead

You go ahead and do some research and try and find me some other QBs who had a 10 game stretch where they threw 19 TDs and only 4 picks. Go ahead.

Quick "research"...9 game stretch...16TDs and 5 INTs....Jay Fiedler

If I make a research I find plenty of QBs who had 10 games stretch a la Griese's 10 game stretch.

Heck, if Fiedler can go 16 TDs with 5 INTs in a 9 game stretch I am sure I find several QBs who can go a 10 game stretch at 19-4.

After all...Jay is the worst QB ever....

Here is a number to ponder for you.

Jay's last 17 full games started:

24 TDs and 12 INTs.,....darn good rate especially when you consider that 7 of those INTs came in 2 games.

That means in 15 out of last 17 he went 23-5 in the TD/INT department....

 

[DOLFANMIKE]

Originally posted by dolfan87
I think the fact that Brian Griese has missed more games than Jay because of injury should be brought up as well.

He isn't exactly a guy who never gets hurt either.

87

Originally posted by DOLFANMIKE


......Another issue with him is also related to health though......can Brian stay healthy? He also has injury questions.....

LOL..I was thinking same thing, this post came a few after the main post.

 

[DOLFANMIKE]

Originally posted by Muck
My sentiments exactly, Mike. I've watched the the Denver game a thousand times. And I came away impressed.

Also, Jay played 37 of 38. But that doesn't mean he's durable. Just tough.

In 2000, he missed training camp with that hip injury, which set him WAY back. Then he tore up those shoulders 3/4 of the way thru the season. He only missed one game, but he was nowhere near 80% most of the season.

2001 was his durable year, playing every game. And he says that a reason for it was that he focused on bulking up that offseason.

Last year he messed up a hip again...missing lots of summer and training camp. Then he tore ligaments in his finger. Kept playing. Then broke the thumb. Then had tendonitis in the elbow the rest of the year.

Everybody gets hurt. But he gets hurt more often. He's one of the toughest QBs out there. But we need him healthy. He has said that he's going to be like the '00/'01 offseason and focus on bulking up again this time around.

Brian isn't the picture of health either. His shoulders get hurt every year with similar injuries.

Muck...thanks. I agree. Seeing his injury history so well put together really was what I was looking for. I agree about Jay, He's tough. But he has had several injuries that effect his time with the team or play on the field. I think that is PART of why we have struggled as an Offense during Wanny's tenure.

 

[DOLFANMIKE]

Re: Re: A Griese thread that may get me in trouble

Originally posted by FFiB


I'll bite again...here is my paste and copy as I responded on the other board to your post....

Jay doesn't miss 4-6 games per year. He missed last year a few games because of a broken thumb not some "JJJ syndrome" (where is my hammy).

In 2000 I believe he missed 1 game and none in 2001.

The Bledsoe/Brady comparison would also not apply if Jay wins and gets injured. Bledsoe was losing. I believe his starting record that year was 1-2 or 1-3.The Pats went on a winning streak with Brady. The only way you could compare both situations is if Jay was losing and then gets injured.

You can point out a few games here and there for each QB where you say "oh what a QB". You can also point out a few plays for each QB and you will say "oh what a bonehead". The only thing so far I've seen is that the team is a different team with Jay at QB. You toss all the stats in the world out and point to many games but the fact remains that somehow when Jay is under center the team plays differently - more focused. Jay's ability to forget about a bad play and continue to play focused is one of the biggest positive attributes for this team. On the other hand, even with the sporadic good play by Brian it was obviously not enough for the Broncos to keep Brian - rather replacing him with a 69 career QBR journey man.

Playing QB is much more about passing. It is about leading a team. Until Brian does not display any attributes other than sporadic he will not start - not here not anywhere.

The name Griese gave him the probowl but it won't give him a continous starting spot.

Here is the NFL disclaimer on their QBR page:

It is important to remember that the system is used to rate passers, not quarterbacks. Statistics do not reflect leadership, play-calling, and other intangible factors that go into making a successful professional quarterback.

As long as we win I do not care who the QB is. That has always been my position.

Originally posted by Muck
My sentiments exactly, Mike. I've watched the the Denver game a thousand times. And I came away impressed.

Also, Jay played 37 of 38. But that doesn't mean he's durable. Just tough.

In 2000, he missed training camp with that hip injury, which set him WAY back. Then he tore up those shoulders 3/4 of the way thru the season. He only missed one game, but he was nowhere near 80% most of the season.

2001 was his durable year, playing every game. And he says that a reason for it was that he focused on bulking up that offseason.

Last year he messed up a hip again...missing lots of summer and training camp. Then he tore ligaments in his finger. Kept playing. Then broke the thumb. Then had tendonitis in the elbow the rest of the year.

Everybody gets hurt. But he gets hurt more often. He's one of the toughest QBs out there. But we need him healthy. He has said that he's going to be like the '00/'01 offseason and focus on bulking up again this time around.

Brian isn't the picture of health either. His shoulders get hurt every year with similar injuries.

His injuries have been many, especially when you talk about it only being in 3 seasons. Season one he missed games in regular season and almost the entire preseason. It's just not accurate to portray him as being injury free season one with the Fins. He played, and was tough as nails, but it effected his play in a negative way and slowed us down as a team. That was the original intent of mentioning his injury situation hurting us as a team.

 

[DOLFANMIKE]

Originally posted by ckparrothead
No matter what Muck it was an ill-conceived throw that could easily have resulted in a loss and everyone questioning why Fiedler would insist on staying in the game despite a broken thumb. I'm sorry, I saw the pass too, and the notion that Fiedler placed a tightly thrown spiral between four defenders in a good spot is just not a fair assessment of that throw.

The difference between Weinke, Ericson, Walsh, and Griese is that unlike the first 3, Brian Griese followed up his National Championship with a pro bowl performance in the NFL.

You do not seem to remember the year that Griese went to the Pro Bowl FFiB. I do. Griese deserved it, there was no doubt. He had one of the best TD/INT ratios in the HISTORY OF THE LEAGUE. I'm sorry but your attempt to disregard that entire episode of his career based on his name alone seems to me a little...well, I'll say "unfair" to prevent a fight. You go ahead and do some research and try and find me some other QBs who had a 10 game stretch where they threw 19 TDs and only 4 picks. Go ahead. Fact of the matter is Griese was doing unbelievable in that season for a very long time and then suffered an injury that ended it but it doesn't change the fact that everyone pegged him as a pro bowler throughout the season based on his production and not his name. I'm sorry but I just dont think names mean all that much in this sport. Hardly anyone thinks of Archie Manning when they think of Peyton Manning. And when I'm sitting here looking at 19 TDs and 4 picks over 10 games, and the name of Griese, if I'm wondering which one played a much much much larger role in Brian being selected to the pro bowl, I'd say it was the 19/4 TD/INT ratio.

If you are'nt going to give Jay credit for making the play against Denver on his deflected pass then we can't give Marino credit for the 1985 bears pass to Clayton. LOL:D

Bottom line is he found a way to get it done. I'll always take some Flutie magic!