Am I Missing Something? (Brunell)

[minus]

Originally posted by A.J. Fin


Fiedler our best option? Jeeeshh, it's only February and already we are all out of options? Wow. Here I thought all these rookies in the draft, all these QB's mentioned (Brunnell, Volek, Warner, Kitna, Garcia, etc) were all options.
Sorry, my mistake...I didn't realize it was just down to Jay again.
Of course, if it's not mistake, then I guess I'm glad YOU are not GM...we'd be down to one QB option!
:goof:

What words of drafting Rivers at #20 and keeping Fiedler you didn't undertand(I'm not looking at Fiedler to be a long term answer bu to simply have a proven QB for upcoming year)?Don't tell me you assume any rookie will come in take a team to the superbowl.Right now is looking like Fiedler might our best option.We need to get our priorities straigth and revamp oline.

Volek?Plz

Warner?Chances are that he will be staying put.

Kitna?Forgot about him and I wouldn't mind Kitna but there nothing indicating Kitna will be release or trade it yet.

 

[Cranx]

Originally posted by ckparrothead
Ehem...(Brady)...ehem (Delhomme)...ehech (Wright)...ahhem (Maddox)...AHEM (Pennington)...aaghchfllfhch (Culpepper)...blech (Kitna)...cough cough (Bulger)...

Boy I just seem to be coughing up first year QBs who led their respective teams to the playoffs.

Delhomme: Was on New Orleans' roster for two years, started two games, appeared in four others.

Wright: Started five games with Dallas over a two year period and appeared in three others. Also only started 50% of his first season with the Ravens therefore his leadership over the course of a majority of a season is still highly questionable.

Maddox: Started four games with Denver in 1992, appeared in forty additional games prior to starting for Pittsburgh. Also lead a pro-style offense to a championship in the XFL.

Kitna: Started six games and appeared in three others prior to leading the Seahawks to the playoffs in 1999.

Also, Culpepper, Brady, Pennington, and Bulger all had at least one year to learn behind Pro Bowl QB's (R. Cunningham, Bledsoe, Testaverde, and Warner respectively.)

As you can clearly see, there is not a single rookie QB in that bunch leading his team to the playoffs. Also, of those who had zero starting experience, all were tutored by QB's who were, at one time or another, considered top five NFL QB's; not a single one of the first time starters stepped in from a journeyman or mediocre QB and won anything.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just that the chances of it ocurring are probably into the fractional percentages.

 

[ckparrothead]

We haven't been to the playoffs in 2 years yet everyone is still talking Super Bowl and NO LESS IS ACCEPTABLE. Yeesh. We haven't had a playoff WIN since like 2000.

The problem with this team is we don't concentrate enough on making ourselves a fundamentally sound good football team. Back in 2000 nobody thought we were gonna go to the Super Bowl. We just came off the DISASTROUS 1999 campaign that was supposed to bring us to the promised land, and Dave Wannstedt's only goal for the season was to win the division. We went in with a first year starter at QB, and with a journeyman overachiever at RB. Our WR position was a shambles, and our defense was great. And we won our only playoff game in the last 4 years. Was one of our only 2 appearances in the playoffs. It seems like, the higher our expectations have gotten, the further away from the playoffs we've gotten. You think the Panthers aimed at the Super Bowl when this season started?

Winning comes first, super bowl comes later. We can win with a first year QB. History proves it.

BTW Warner and Brady both led their teams to a Super Bowl title in their first years as starters. I've provided numerous examples of other first years who led their teams to the playoffs, or even far in the playoffs...and I didn't even get all the names. Fiedler was another. Shaun King was another after that, led his team to the NFC Championship where they barely got beat by the Rams...a controversial loss too.

You concentrate on winning, making your team a better football team. Its when you concentrate on putting in the final piece of the puzzle to win a Super Bowl, THAT is when you fall into a trap and start losing...because you're counting on the new acquisition to perform to a level he probably will not perform to, and you're counting on your existing players to reproduce exactly what they've already done. Both have proven to be rare occurrences in the ever-changing NFL.

If the Patriots had operated that way, they would have gone all-out and gotten themselves a RB to replace Antowain Smith. But instead they concentrated on making themselves a better team. We did that last year to an extent, helping out the defense with guys like Seau, Knight, Zgonina, and T-Buck. I would say that worked, cuz we won 1 more game. But it wasn't enough. We counted on an impoverished O-Line to produce the same as they did in 2002 and we paid for it.

 

[A.J. Fin]

Originally posted by ckparrothead
We haven't been to the playoffs in 2 years yet everyone is still talking Super Bowl and NO LESS IS ACCEPTABLE. Yeesh. We haven't had a playoff WIN since like 2000.

The problem with this team is we don't concentrate enough on making ourselves a fundamentally sound good football team. Back in 2000 nobody thought we were gonna go to the Super Bowl. We just came off the DISASTROUS 1999 campaign that was supposed to bring us to the promised land, and Dave Wannstedt's only goal for the season was to win the division. We went in with a first year starter at QB, and with a journeyman overachiever at RB. Our WR position was a shambles, and our defense was great. And we won our only playoff game in the last 4 years. Was one of our only 2 appearances in the playoffs. It seems like, the higher our expectations have gotten, the further away from the playoffs we've gotten. You think the Panthers aimed at the Super Bowl when this season started?

Winning comes first, super bowl comes later. We can win with a first year QB. History proves it.

BTW Warner and Brady both led their teams to a Super Bowl title in their first years as starters. I've provided numerous examples of other first years who led their teams to the playoffs, or even far in the playoffs...and I didn't even get all the names. Fiedler was another. Shaun King was another after that, led his team to the NFC Championship where they barely got beat by the Rams...a controversial loss too.

You concentrate on winning, making your team a better football team. Its when you concentrate on putting in the final piece of the puzzle to win a Super Bowl, THAT is when you fall into a trap and start losing...because you're counting on the new acquisition to perform to a level he probably will not perform to, and you're counting on your existing players to reproduce exactly what they've already done. Both have proven to be rare occurrences in the ever-changing NFL.

If the Patriots had operated that way, they would have gone all-out and gotten themselves a RB to replace Antowain Smith. But instead they concentrated on making themselves a better team. We did that last year to an extent, helping out the defense with guys like Seau, Knight, Zgonina, and T-Buck. I would say that worked, cuz we won 1 more game. But it wasn't enough. We counted on an impoverished O-Line to produce the same as they did in 2002 and we paid for it.

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Can I get the crib notes version of this?
:sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep: :sleep:

 

[ckparrothead]

Cranx you mistake me. I said first year starter QB, not ROOKIE QB. I'm not all about starting Rivers. I'm all about signing Ricky Ray and Sage Rosenfels and letting them battle it out for the start.

Drew Bledsoe was anything but a top 5 QB when Brady got there his rookie year or in the 2nd year when Drew was replaced. And Drew always got to where he got on physical abilities, not necessarily veteran savvy that he could teach.

Jake Delhomme learn from Aaron Brooks? Come on, please. Give me a break. Brooks was only in like his 2nd and 3rd years as starter when Delhomme was there.

Who did Warner learn from?

How much could Chad Pennington have gotten to learn from renowned brainiac Vinny Testeverde? Top 5 QB Vinny Testeverde???? Don't know when THAT happened...

As for Randall Cunningham, he's always been known as a selfish player and he still was in Minnesota. And besides, in Daunte's rookie year Jeff George started the majority of the season, not Randall. Two selfish guys like Jeff George and Randall Cunningham, not likely to teach much to a newcomer like Daunte who they knew was gonna take their place.

I think you're severely overestimating the value of having a veteran teach a younger guy. QB Coaches teach young QBs, or at least thats how its supposed to work. And on top of that you're ignoring the fact that Sage has spent two years in training under Jay Fiedler, with Brian Griese tossed in for one year on top of that. I know those guys aren't "top five" but to say that the other "QB Trainers" you mentioned could have taught their understudies so much more than a Jay Fiedler or Brian Griese, guys who have had to make their way in this league with grit and intangibles rather than physical gifts, is to me, wrong.

When I say get Ricky Ray and let he and Sage compete, I'm assuming that Sage Rosenfels wins this battle. If Ricky Ray surprises us and turns out to be the real deal, that can only be a good thing.

And BTW when I say first year starter I mean first year a guy was declared a starter over everyone else. Coming in for an injured player to me doesn't count. If Ray Lucas would have come to Miami and won the job over Fiedler, he would be a first year starter, even though he played like 8 games for the Jets because of injury situations. If Damon Huard had won the QB competition instead of Jay Fiedler, he would be a first year starter even though he started like 5 games in relief of an injured Marino. I think Wright fits into this group because the original starter heading into the season was Redman and he was healthy when Wright started even if Boller wasn't. And Boller, I think, probably could have played again if they wanted him to but Wright was performing well, so a decision was made.

 

[ckparrothead]

BTW Cranx by your own logic if Anthony Wright doesn't count as a first year starter then neither did Aaron Brooks' 2000 campaign when he started 8 games in place of an initially injured Jeff Blake. So that means Aaron Brooks, who Jake Delhomme was supposedly "learning from" in 2001 and 2002, was himself a first year starter in 2001 and only a 2nd year starter in 2002.

And btw in 2000 if you do count Brooks as a first year starter, then he goes down as yet another "first year starter" that led his team to the playoffs...in fact it was the first playoff win the New Orleans Saints had ever gotten as a franchise, defeating defending super bowl champs and division rivals the St Louis Rams 31-28.

 

[ckparrothead]

I just don't see how you can overestimate so much the value of having a senior quarterback on a squad for a guy to learn under, while at the same time underestimating Jay Fiedler's and Brian Griese's abilities to BE that mentor for young Sage Rosenfels.

It seems like the further you stretch this mentor notion, the more you should have to admit that Sage Rosenfels, if he started the 2004 season and led us to the playoffs does not count as a first year QB who led his team to the playoffs under your own assumptions.

 

[A.J. Fin]

Originally posted by ckparrothead
Cranx you mistake me. I said first year starter QB, not ROOKIE QB. I'm not all about starting Rivers. I'm all about signing Ricky Ray and Sage Rosenfels and letting them battle it out for the start.

Drew Bledsoe was anything but a top 5 QB when Brady got there his rookie year or in the 2nd year when Drew was replaced. And Drew always got to where he got on physical abilities, not necessarily veteran savvy that he could teach.

Jake Delhomme learn from Aaron Brooks? Come on, please. Give me a break. Brooks was only in like his 2nd and 3rd years as starter when Delhomme was there.

Who did Warner learn from?

How much could Chad Pennington have gotten to learn from renowned brainiac Vinny Testeverde? Top 5 QB Vinny Testeverde???? Don't know when THAT happened...

As for Randall Cunningham, he's always been known as a selfish player and he still was in Minnesota. And besides, in Daunte's rookie year Jeff George started the majority of the season, not Randall. Two selfish guys like Jeff George and Randall Cunningham, not likely to teach much to a newcomer like Daunte who they knew was gonna take their place.

I think you're severely overestimating the value of having a veteran teach a younger guy. QB Coaches teach young QBs, or at least thats how its supposed to work. And on top of that you're ignoring the fact that Sage has spent two years in training under Jay Fiedler, with Brian Griese tossed in for one year on top of that. I know those guys aren't "top five" but to say that the other "QB Trainers" you mentioned could have taught their understudies so much more than a Jay Fiedler or Brian Griese, guys who have had to make their way in this league with grit and intangibles rather than physical gifts, is to me, wrong.

When I say get Ricky Ray and let he and Sage compete, I'm assuming that Sage Rosenfels wins this battle. If Ricky Ray surprises us and turns out to be the real deal, that can only be a good thing.

And BTW when I say first year starter I mean first year a guy was declared a starter over everyone else. Coming in for an injured player to me doesn't count. If Ray Lucas would have come to Miami and won the job over Fiedler, he would be a first year starter, even though he played like 8 games for the Jets because of injury situations. If Damon Huard had won the QB competition instead of Jay Fiedler, he would be a first year starter even though he started like 5 games in relief of an injured Marino. I think Wright fits into this group because the original starter heading into the season was Redman and he was healthy when Wright started even if Boller wasn't. And Boller, I think, probably could have played again if they wanted him to but Wright was performing well, so a decision was made.

Okay Okay, you win the talking marathon. Hands down!
Yikes!

 

[phins_4_ever]

Originally posted by A.J. Fin


Dude, you are way behind the times. Fiedler is history as a Fins starter....no one's even debating that anymore. Four years is plenty long enough to prove if you're capable or not. He proved he's not. Give him the best o-line in the world, he still has the accuracy of a bat.
Join us in the present and future. Fiedler is part of the forgettable past.

how many QBs go to the superbowl within 4 years of becoming a starter.....

1? 2? 3? 4?

 

[Phishstix]

Originally posted by ckparrothead
Ehem...(Brady)...ehem (Delhomme)...ehech (Wright)...ahhem (Maddox)...AHEM (Pennington)...aaghchfllfhch (Culpepper)...blech (Kitna)...cough cough (Bulger)...

Boy I just seem to be coughing up first year QBs who led their respective teams to the playoffs.

don't forget fiedler . i want no parts of brunell, imo a stopgap in the twilight of his career. the f.o. needs to secure a future franchis caliber qb, be it rivers/henson/losman, and in the meantime, until the rook is ready, jay can still win games

 

[Bowl_Bound]

With Brunell controlling his own fate I cant see him signing with DC (unless they trade Ramsey ). Same is true for SD. While its more likely they would trade Brees, they also have the first pick and Eli is looming. The cowboys could be tempting but cant and wont offer more than us and we are local. I really think this is much ado about nothing. We will get him.

 

[A.J. Fin]

Originally posted by FFiB


how many QBs go to the superbowl within 4 years of becoming a starter.....

1? 2? 3? 4?

Wow, it can count!

Way more than that by the way. Can you count higher?

 

[phins_4_ever]

Originally posted by A.J. Fin


Wow, it can count!

Way more than that by the way. Can you count higher?

I asked a question....answer me.

You stated: Dude, you are way behind the times. Fiedler is history as a Fins starter....no one's even debating that anymore. Four years is plenty long enough to prove if you're capable or not. He proved he's not. Give him the best o-line in the world, he still has the accuracy of a bat.
Join us in the present and future. Fiedler is part of the forgettable past.

And i asked you a question. BTW I was not counting hence the question mark. So, would you like to answer the question?

 

[Section126]

Originally posted by FFiB


how many QBs go to the superbowl within 4 years of becoming a starter.....

1? 2? 3? 4?

Ask and you shall recieve......

Here are the QB's that reached The Super Bowl within their first 4 years of becoming a starter........

Dawson, Namath, Morrall, Morton, GRIESE, Staubach, Tarkenton, Bradshaw, Ferragamo, Montana, WOODLEY, MARINO, Eason, McMahon, Elway, Esiason, Hostetler, Rypien, Aikman, Humpheries, Bledsoe, Favre, Warner, Dilfer, Collins, Brady, Warner (again), Brady (again), Delhomme.

29 out of the 76 Super Bowl Starting QB's were in their 4th year or less as a Starter. 17 of the 29 won.

 

[A.J. Fin]

Originally posted by Section126


Ask and you shall recieve......

Here are the QB's that reached The Super Bowl within their first 4 years of becoming a starter........

Dawson, Namath, Morrall, Morton, GRIESE, Staubach, Tarkenton, Bradshaw, Ferragamo, Montana, WOODLEY, MARINO, Eason, McMahon, Elway, Esiason, Hostetler, Rypien, Aikman, Humpheries, Bledsoe, Favre, Warner, Dilfer, Collins, Brady, Warner (again), Brady (again), Delhomme.

29 out of the 76 Super Bowl Starting QB's were in their 4th year or less as a Starter. 17 of the 29 won.

Thank you Section126. Perfectly stated.
FFib, there you have it. That's all she wrote for the four year failed experiment known as Jay Fielder.