Barry Jackson Tidbits before Training Camp

[jim1]

you got a offense built around run after the catch with a top 2 currently at least it seems wr that doesn't like to run after the catch in hartline...i mean he's not ted ginn level avoid contact at all cost but the kid always goes to ground it seems when he catches the ball...i keep hearing about his great balance imo if he had great balance and body control he wouldn't be on the ground all the time after the catch...

but i'm one of those people that thinks hartline in a good wr core is more a #3 or #4 guy...

Yup. And still better than Bess, at least imo.

 

[CattailsrEdible]

I dont think bess will make it! He wouldnt start on most teams, is slow as hell, even moreso now that he has knee problems! I would rather keep a guy with potential, like rishard mathews! There was a thread about his trade value awhile back and the general consensus was he wasnt worth anything, yet people think he should start? Just blows my mind! He was a nice story, but its time to move on!

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[CANDolphan]

you got a offense built around run after the catch with a top 2 currently at least it seems wr that doesn't like to run after the catch in hartline...i mean he's not ted ginn level avoid contact at all cost but the kid always goes to ground it seems when he catches the ball...i keep hearing about his great balance imo if he had great balance and body control he wouldn't be on the ground all the time after the catch...

but i'm one of those people that thinks hartline in a good wr core is more a #3 or #4 guy...

I just flat out do not understand how you can tell me he doesn't have great balance and body control with the sheer amount of sideline grabs he makes. I mean, it's as clear as day watching the kid. This year alone he had 4 ridiculous catches on the sideline that showed tremendous field awareness as well as body control.

 

[13ktownguy]

If we cut Bess he would likely end up a Patriot and catch 85 passes next year....lol

 

[CedarPhin]

I think that Chad Johnson will prove to be a very good acquisition. Bellichick handled him poorly, he should have simplified Johhnson's responsibilities and set him loose to what he does best, play ball. Philbin looks like he's handling him correctly, and I think that Johnson will have a very productive year. I still think that Bess is in danger of getting cut, and I still wish that we had drafted Joe Adams, and as a second option Devon Wylie would have been good for the slot as well.

It says nothing like that in the article, it says he's got a "safe' position on the roster. Pure speculation on your part.

 

[hoops]

I just flat out do not understand how you can tell me he doesn't have great balance and body control with the sheer amount of sideline grabs he makes. I mean, it's as clear as day watching the kid. This year alone he had 4 ridiculous catches on the sideline that showed tremendous field awareness as well as body control.

it probably has to do with 35 catches 4 of which were rediculous ones on the sideline as you've mentioned which i'm pretty sure i know the ones you are talking about and i won't deny but for the total body of work i'm just not all that impressed...what's he average one damn td per year...i'm not a big fan of his ability to win vs coverage consistently don't feel that he offers much of anything after the catch similar in that regard to greg camarillo hartline drops his fair share of balls also and offers nothing in the red zone against man coverage...he's an afterthought in a defensive gameplan never commands more than single man attention no ones ever gonna roll their coverage to brian hartline...i think he makes his hay against 3rd and 4th corners and even then i don't think he's ever gonna be a guy you can just go to on 3rd down to move the chains against top 2 level corner opposition...i just don't...he's quite average to me in every way...not something that i think we have to retain by any means...but you know this roster is chalk full of guys that i put in that same boat...most of em could leave tomorrow if this was the offseason and we could still bring in other guys and i wouldn't bat an eye

the only true legitimate must account for and gameplan for wr from 2011 walked out the door for two 3rd round picks...

 

[jim1]

It says nothing like that in the article, it says he's got a "safe' position on the roster. Pure speculation on your part.

Gee, really, you think? I've been known to engage in speculation, and Bess struggling to make the final 53 is just that. Thank you for recapping the obvious.

 

[CANDolphan]

it probably has to do with 35 catches 4 of which were rediculous ones on the sideline as you've mentioned which i'm pretty sure i know the ones you are talking about and i won't deny but for the total body of work i'm just not all that impressed...what's he average one damn td per year...i'm not a big fan of his ability to win vs coverage consistently don't feel that he offers much of anything after the catch similar in that regard to greg camarillo hartline drops his fair share of balls also and offers nothing in the red zone against man coverage...he's an afterthought in a defensive gameplan never commands more than single man attention no ones ever gonna roll their coverage to brian hartline...i think he makes his hay against 3rd and 4th corners and even then i don't think he's ever gonna be a guy you can just go to on 3rd down to move the chains against top 2 level corner opposition...i just don't...he's quite average to me in every way...not something that i think we have to retain by any means...but you know this roster is chalk full of guys that i put in that same boat...most of em could leave tomorrow if this was the offseason and we could still bring in other guys and i wouldn't bat an eye

the only true legitimate must account for and gameplan for wr from 2011 walked out the door for two 3rd round picks...

I absolutely agree with you that he is FAR from a guy that most defensive coordinators look at and say "oh man we gotta figure out where he is!"
No debate there. You're dead on. I just see value in a strong #2/#3 guy like Hartline. I really do. Hartline and Bess are easily our top 2, and that doesn't say much. Hartline brings genuine separation at the deep level, but I'm concerned, just as you are, that he won't be able to do much against a true #1 CB. I want Miami to hold on to Hartline for when we DO get a true #1, and he can sit comfortable in his role. Sadly, it's tough to get a true #1 WR in this league.

I agree with you about our WR corps. Genuinely, I think everyone is replaceable. It's the truth. The more you and I discuss it, the more it becomes apparent and I just get upset. It's a shame that Cleveland went all in on Gordon, because I saw a genuine #1 WR in him. Is he guaranteed? Hell no. lots of questions about the kid, but if he works to become 75% of what he can, he'll be a playmaker in this league.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

Bess will definitely make the roster. I think the issue is more along the lines of whether or not that's ideal if you choose to look a little further down the road. Opinions will vary like everything else.

There always seems to be a fine line among fans between simply developing an appreciation for an over-achiever who makes the most out of what he has, and going overboard with infatuation for a player who needs to be upgraded in order for the offense to achieve a more desired status and compete for championships.

I've always had a great appreciation for Davone Bess because he has to work for everything. However, I also understand that Miami needs more from the position. Miami should want more from the position, and strive to upgrade the punt return unit in the same manner by killing two birds with one stone, so to speak.

It's hard to get around to it when the team always seems to have a dozen other priorities that need more immediate attention. Miami hasn't even made giving him competition a priority yet.

Davone Bess is essentially the Channing Crowder of the offense. A guy who continues to hang around despite the need for upgrade simply because of other priorities. But rest assured, pretty soon your turn at the stake arrives, and I think it'll come fairly soon with a coach like Philbin.

Bess is probably a top-10 slot receiver in the league, but that's not really saying a whole lot. There's probably 7 or 8 slot receivers in the league I'd take over him right off the top of my head and without giving it much thought. Hypothetically, you could even throw in a few rookies who haven't played a down yet like Joe Adams, T.Y. Hilton, Jarius Wright, Devon Wylie, Lavon Brazill, etc. and I'd give you Bess for any one of them straight up in a trade just to illustrate my point.

I understand a little bit where jim1 is coming from here. It's the effort towards upgrading the slot/punt return units that I would like to see, and expect to see.... with the difference being it would've already been a priority on my list.

 

[PJack]

I by no means think Bess is getting cut this year, but I definitely agree with Jim on his limitations. He's as solid as they come but he's simply a non-threat. We are currently not talented enough at this point where we can drop a solid receiver. I frankly would be disappointed if we did not find a way to upgrade the slot next year with a guy that can be a home run threat receiving that can also translate to kick return duties.

As far as folks not seeing Cunningham or Matthews having 3rd round grades, look no further than NFL.com. 70-84 is 2-3rd round grade. They also had both of ranked higher that a lot of guys I heard hyped on this site including Childs, Streeter, Wylie among others. None of this means much, but no need to jump guys for reciting something they read along the way. I personally liked Mathews a little more (I caught a couple of big games he played on tv) but I think both have a shot at being productive.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/profiles/b.j.-cunningham?id=2532824

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/profiles/rishard-matthews?id=2532903

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2012/tracker#dt-tabs:dt-by-position/dt-by-position-input:wr

 

[insomnia411]

you got a offense built around run after the catch with a top 2 currently at least it seems wr that doesn't like to run after the catch in hartline...i mean he's not ted ginn level avoid contact at all cost but the kid always goes to ground it seems when he catches the ball...i keep hearing about his great balance imo if he had great balance and body control he wouldn't be on the ground all the time after the catch...

but i'm one of those people that thinks hartline in a good wr core is more a #3 or #4 guy...

Two useless Ohio St. products.

 

[Pachyderm_Wave]

I had a 3rd round grade on Rishard Matthews and figured he'd come off the board a lot earlier than he did. I think he might be the safest bet of Miami's entire draft to outperform his draft slot when all is said and done.

He's a well put together receiver with explosive run-after-the-catch ability. He was basically Nevada's entire offense last year after Kaepernick turned pro, doubling as a threat on punt returns to take it the distance.

There were receivers around here far more overhyped that I never subscribed to in the first place (Dwight Jones and Marvin McNutt for example) who went undrafted or came off the board in the 7th round along with Matthews.

 

[ckparrothead]

I think the reason for Dwight Jones' fall through the draft became apparent when he quit football for good a month after the draft. His heart wasn't in it.

 

[CANDolphan]

Oh I see now that I've been outspoken about Matthews recently everyone is hopping on the train, eh?

Just kidding (But seriously, I've been talking about Matthews being the best potential for playmaker this whole time. I think he has to make the roster first). But seriously, I never understood how he lasted as long as he did. The guy has very good speed, he seems to have tremendous balance while running the ball, and seems to be sure handed. Doesn't have the big size whatsoever but I saw him play in the Boise State game (My roommate's friend is a huge BSU homer and was over watching) and I was sold on him immediately.

Knowing that Slimm had a 3rd round grade on him is... pretty reassuring of my opinion.

 

[jason_taylor]

For once I'm not worried about our QB situation. I am however, 100% worried about our WR situation, I just feel like we're in really really bad shape in that department. We'll see, but I have very low expectations for the WR group as a whole.

Maybe the TEs will pick up the slack left with our WRs they said sherman liked running 3 TE sets in college so maybe that works but if not then there are still a few vet WRs still out there in FA maybe we can sign them for year to year contracts so we wont be devoted that much if it so happens they dont play up to there potential T O is still ava and if im not mistaken that WR from Detroit is ava but nomatter i think we can get our wrs upgraded before the season starts if we really need to go in that direction.