Blitzing/Norv Turner.

[Merman]

Re: IT HAS TO CHANGE A LITTLE

Originally posted by Muck
This is a very good defense. And Jim Bates has probably done a better job than we give him credit for. But it can be better. And it starts with Jim Bates making adjustments (his GLARING weakness) and ends with players executing.

Nice to get back to some reality. I definitely don't agree with the word GLARING. If you didn't like the adjustments or think there were not enough that's fine everyone is entitled to their opinion. But don't make it sound like the absolute truth.

Originally posted by Muck
You can look at rankings all you want. But the fact is that Barbarian is right. Every team that CAN go down the field DID. This team CRACKED when the division and the playoffs were on the line. Sometimes it was the players' fault. Sometimes it was the coach's fault. But in this case, change starts at the top, because I don't feel that mental toughness/shapness was the problem. We've got all the talent in the world on this side of the ball. Championship talent. Talent that can execute.

Barbarian is right????? I don't think you read his posts. Ranking defenses on total yards is what is done. Now if every team racked up the yards on the Fins that's fine. BUT it had to happen to all the other teams too considering its a total yards ranking. Some played the run better and some played the pass better. You cannot discount it altogether. The Dolphin's D beating up on their weak opponents??? The Dolphins usually have one of the more difficult schedules in the league. How about setting up the players for failure. You agree with that and think Barbarian is right???
You say the team cracked at the end which was much too early this year and that's true. It also has to be considered that every team cracks at the end of the season as there is only one Super Bowl winner. All 31 teams cracked and we all have to fix it. This is not an excuse to not change but trying to bring some back to reality. This is a league where any one team at any time can beat another team. That's why IMO self-motivation, momentum and home field is so important. Some on this board never give the other team any credit. The Dolphins have to beat them all, hold the offense to less than 17 points or the sky is falling.

Originally posted by Muck
And if we learned ANYTHING from the Tom Olivadotti era, wouldn't it be that the Prevent Defense PREVENTS you from WINNING?? Apprently this defensive coordinator doesn't subscribe to that theory.

The Prevent Defense hurt us the last two games in the 4th quarter (watch the tape and you'll see that God-forsaken thing show it's ugly head). It's not that Brady didn't have the arm to beat us deep (his arm is better than most give him credit for). The problem was that the Prevent allowed him to dink and dunk us underneath.

Now I don't necessarily disagree with you but it does seem like most of the defensive coordinators in the NFL do disagree. It is seen all the time at games' end in the playoffs where we all get to see some of the better teams in the league showcased. I could defend it or tear it apart but it's a mute point. As you said we have seen it for the last 20 years.

Originally posted by Muck
Our team plays lights out for 3 quarters and then collapses in the 4th. Just as we play awesome for 12 weeks and collapse the last 4. The common thinking here is, "We have to continue to be aggressive and strong-willed down the stretch.". Wouldn't that include being aggressive and not going into a shell down the stretch in an individual game (Prevent/letting up)??

This team won't succeed in the 4th quarter/December until it's defensive coordinator decides to challenge an offense for 4 quarters. After that, it's up the the players to execute.

Sounds like a decent enough opinion but we all know this is not a new phenomena. Until a D.C. is hired that sees the light the way you do maybe the players should just execute???

Originally posted by Muck
Finally, in regards to Surtain letting Coles get behind him in the Jets game, you might want to read into Surtain's statements after the game......where, when questioned about what happened on that play, he replied, "I play the defense that's called".

Now I don't remember discussing this but what does Surtain's quote have to do with anything??? Bates told him to play zone and Coles made the play??? The Dolphin's made an adjustment that wasn't successful ???? Bates tried to change up the D to be unpredictable or give a different look and got burned for it??? Or is this a case where Bates set up his players for failure???

 

[Surferosa]

man this is a great football discussion. And were only in May. We may not be able to beat teams in December on the road, but this Fin board definitely kicks the ass of any competing football forum on the web!

 

[Muck]

Very true. We've got a lot of good guys here. Guys who really care about the team. :up:

 

[Merman]

You are both right. :bravo:

 

[dolfan06]

Originally posted by Merman
You are both right. :bravo:

no, they may be right!:D

 

[Muck]

Re: Re: IT HAS TO CHANGE A LITTLE

Originally posted by Merman
Nice to get back to some reality. I definitely don't agree with the word GLARING. If you didn't like the adjustments or think there were not enough that's fine everyone is entitled to their opinion. But don't make it sound like the absolute truth.

I think it is an absolute truth. We've all seen it. And we've all heard analysys and opposing coaches talk about how this defense does not change. We allow teams to attack us at will. And rarely to we adjust. And when we do attempt to adjust, it's usually not in the right way (one of Zach's complaints). And it usually involves going into a Prevent Defense.

It's not a bad scheme. It's a very good one. And we usually succeed because it's sound and the players are so darn talented. But it's just that, like anything, it needs a little variation from time to time. Look no further than the defensive team captains for testimonials. An opposing coach is not going to dis our defense because doing so makes no sense. You want your opponent to be simple and "stationary" per say.

Originally posted by Merman
Barbarian is right????? I don't think you read his posts. Ranking defenses on total yards is what is done. Now if every team racked up the yards on the Fins that's fine. BUT it had to happen to all the other teams too considering its a total yards ranking. Some played the run better and some played the pass better. You cannot discount it altogether. The Dolphin's D beating up on their weak opponents??? The Dolphins usually have one of the more difficult schedules in the league. How about setting up the players for failure. You agree with that and think Barbarian is right???
You say the team cracked at the end which was much too early this year and that's true. It also has to be considered that every team cracks at the end of the season as there is only one Super Bowl winner. All 31 teams cracked and we all have to fix it. This is not an excuse to not change but trying to bring some back to reality. This is a league where any one team at any time can beat another team. That's why IMO self-motivation, momentum and home field is so important. Some on this board never give the other team any credit. The Dolphins have to beat them all, hold the offense to less than 17 points or the sky is falling.

Again, stats have nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make. This team cracked when it counted. Ok, other teams didn't cut the mustard either (I won't say 31 because I don't agree with that rational). But most other teams weren't nearly as talented as we were. Most other teams didn't lead the division for 16 weeks, 58 minutes and 44 seconds and then miss the playoffs. Most other teams didn't have an 18.5 sack DE, a CB who had his finest season and made All-Pro in 14 games, a MLB who had 180 tackles once again, on a defense...as a whole...that stayed VERY healthy.

How can a defense that ranked #3 overall (4/10 of a point from #2) miss the playoffs?? Maybe because there offense sucked (Carolina). Wait, the Phins had a RB with the 8th greatest season of all time. So that's not an excuse either.

Yes, Barbarian was right. I don't care about rankings and stats. It's irrelevant in this discussion. Stats don't mean jack if you don't back up that ranking when it really counts....like when the season is on the line. And teams DID go deep on us. Buffalo, NY, Minnesota, Kansas City....they successfully went deep on us. And like I said, sometimes it was Bates fault.....sometimes the players' fault.

Originally posted by Merman
Now I don't necessarily disagree with you but it does seem like most of the defensive coordinators in the NFL do disagree. It is seen all the time at games' end in the playoffs where we all get to see some of the better teams in the league showcased. I could defend it or tear it apart but it's a mute point. As you said we have seen it for the last 20 years.

Well, it's a stupid philosophy (the Prevent). It's one thing to be way up in the 4th in garbage time. But when the game is on the line and you need a stop, it is absolutely ridiculous. And if DC's around the league disagree, then I guess that doesn't say much for the mindstate of DC's around the league.

Originally posted by Merman
Sounds like a decent enough opinion but we all know this is not a new phenomena. Until a D.C. is hired that sees the light the way you do maybe the players should just execute???

The players can execute the Prevent D until their heads turn blue. You're still going to get the same results. Why not just stay aggressive for four quarters?? This is what Huizenga and Wanny are talking about in the papers the last few months.

Originally posted by Merman
Now I don't remember discussing this but what does Surtain's quote have to do with anything??? Bates told him to play zone and Coles made the play??? The Dolphin's made an adjustment that wasn't successful ???? Bates tried to change up the D to be unpredictable or give a different look and got burned for it??? Or is this a case where Bates set up his players for failure???

Wahwee mentioned on page 3 that he felt we lost the Jets game because Surtain let Coles get behind him and Marion was late getting over (Bates made a call and our Pro Bowlers failed to execute). This was a case of BROCK MARION biting on play-action (in an obvious passing down IMHO) when he had deep responsibility. Surtain took a lot of heat unjustly for the play.

 

[XoPhinsoX]

Yeah, I enjoy watching us play prevent defense and offenses just get 10 yard per play and move down the field.

I just don't understand the reason to change something when it's OBVIOUSLY working throughout the game.

 

[Merman]

Re: Re: Re: IT HAS TO CHANGE A LITTLE

Originally posted by Muck


I think it is an absolute truth. We've all seen it. And we've all heard analysys and opposing coaches talk about how this defense does not change. We allow teams to attack us at will. And rarely to we adjust. And when we do attempt to adjust, it's usually not in the right way (one of Zach's complaints). And it usually involves going into a Prevent Defense.

It's not a bad scheme. It's a very good one. And we usually succeed because it's sound and the players are so darn talented. But it's just that, like anything, it needs a little variation from time to time. Look no further than the defensive team captains for testimonials. An opposing coach is not going to dis our defense because doing so makes no sense. You want your opponent to be simple and "stationary" per say.

First of all the Dolphins press and man coverage is an attacking defense not a passive one. The team had a different plan for every team they played and the ajustments made were very subtle. If not reported in the papers only insiders would know. Do you remember when teams were running on the outside of O-gun?? They moved his stance slightly more to the outside which alleviated the problem.
When things go bad everyone has an opinion and most have some truth to them. That doesn't mean Their comments are absolutely correct.

Originally posted by Muck

Again, stats have nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make. This team cracked when it counted. Ok, other teams didn't cut the mustard either (I won't say 31 because I don't agree with that rational). But most other teams weren't nearly as talented as we were. Most other teams didn't lead the division for 16 weeks, 58 minutes and 44 seconds and then miss the playoffs. Most other teams didn't have an 18.5 sack DE, a CB who had his finest season and made All-Pro in 14 games, a MLB who had 180 tackles once again, on a defense...as a whole...that stayed VERY healthy.

How can a defense that ranked #3 overall (4/10 of a point from #2) miss the playoffs?? Maybe because there offense sucked (Carolina). Wait, the Phins had a RB with the 8th greatest season of all time. So that's not an excuse either.

Yes, Barbarian was right. I don't care about rankings and stats. It's irrelevant in this discussion. Stats don't mean jack if you don't back up that ranking when it really counts....like when the season is on the line. And teams DID go deep on us. Buffalo, NY, Minnesota, Kansas City....they successfully went deep on us. And like I said, sometimes it was Bates fault.....sometimes the players' fault.

I am not relying on stats for any excuse. When it's said that the defense is top ten or worse because we didn't make the playoffs then referring to team defensive standings does make sense. Football is a team game. That's the reason you can have a great defense and not make the playoffs. That's the reason you can have a 1800 yard runner and not make the palyoffs. Not to mention not one player making a play when it really counted. That does not discount a top defense or the league's top rusher. Nor does it make sense that Ricky is not the league's leading rusher because the team didn't make the playoffs and stats don't matter because of it.

If you still think Barbarian is right then you are starting to go way off too because his thoughts are wacky.

 

[Barbarian]

whenever Merman, it's obvious you put more faith on the stats than what actually happens on the field.

Do we have an awsome Defense?

We have awsome personelle and a poor D. Coordinator that drops the ball late in the game because he refuses to adjust to what the offense is doing.

Zach Thomas see's it, Bill Bellicheck Sees it, Mike Tice sees it, the entire cast of NFL Matchup sees it. Most of us in here see it, but keep up your matra of #3 defense, because like I said before, stats don't tell the whole story and those of us tht actually watch the games and understand football a little bit more than opening up the paper and looking at the stats know that you are absolutely 100% wrong about Bates.

 

[Muck]

Re: Re: Re: Re: IT HAS TO CHANGE A LITTLE

Originally posted by Merman
First of all the Dolphins press and man coverage is an attacking defense not a passive one. The team had a different plan for every team they played and the ajustments made were very subtle. If not reported in the papers only insiders would know. Do you remember when teams were running on the outside of O-gun?? They moved his stance slightly more to the outside which alleviated the problem.
When things go bad everyone has an opinion and most have some truth to them. That doesn't mean Their comments are absolutely correct.

It goes without saying that the team makes subtle adjustments from week to week. I don't think anyone believes differently. And who said the Phins regular defense was passive?? That's crazy. I've repeatedly stated that we need to stay aggressive (which means not going to the Prevent). What I'm talking about is making the proper adjustments during a game and overall in philosophy. These changes would hardly be considered drastic.

Originally posted by Merman
If you still think Barbarian is right then you are starting to go way off too because his thoughts are wacky.

I don't subscribe to one person's way of thinking. I picked a few relevant points of interest from one of Barbarian's post. And he was correct in the areas I chose.