Brady Poppinga: Gase might have lost the team | Page 10 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Brady Poppinga: Gase might have lost the team

ReppinThe941 said:
Gase has 100% lost this team...

Ross should can him and Tbaum now...
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Lol, just wait until they lose a few more. He will really lose the team. I doubt they win another game. But Ross won’t fire any of these bums.
 
"I know that Harry, but can he do the job, I'm not arguing that with you, I'm not arguing that with you Harry, if I had said that I would have been wrong, I know he can get the job, but can he do the job"

As a public service announcement, Wes Welker did not win a super bowl ring, only was in 3 AFC championships. (Thanks to Mr, you made me look it up)


And who is our Marino or Lewis on this team? There are only a handful of players in the league that get treated that way: a top X (7ish?) QB and that once in a generation transcendent player like a Lewis. Everyone else is one or two bad interactions with a coach / blown big play away from being benched, traded, or cut.

That wasn't my point, my point was to MFan and his "the beatings will continue until moral improves" theory. IF and this is a big IF, Gase thinks that the whole team are insubordinate, and unwilling to "get with the program" then he should dump everyone, no matter the contract or cost, then start over. In this way he can show everyone who is Boss, like a Boss. Then he can hand pick his players, and never have to blame anyone else, never, ever, ever never again.

When nothing is working, as a (business) manager or coach, you look for ways to get peoples attention. We keep blaming Gase for all the problems on the field -- and since he's the head coach, we should. But we don't know how much is bad coaching, reduced playbooks because the players can't handle the playbook as an individual or unit, how many players are freelancing for stats (for future contacts or existing contact play fors) or just trying so hard because they really care that they are blowing their assignments instead, playing hurt (or more hurt than they have told anyone), OR young coaches that still haven't figured out how to coach a team effectively. What we do know is killing us: our team sucks and still has a ton of holes

What we also know is at least one player, one of our most effective, was blowing things up (not the good way) on and off the field enough that they we willing to trade him mid-season for very little. If you think that was just for show or a coach being petulant (and risking a possibly once in a lifetime job), you're delusional.

OK, lets turn this around, your income is based on salary and bonus, but your bonus depends on how well your "group" or "team" leader performs. Your team leader from last year gets sick, takes a leave of absence, and your boss, hires a buddy of his that has been known to be an idiot, moron, and not very capable of capitalizing on his talents. You know for a certainty, that you will not make your big bonuses like you did last year. How would you feel, would you say oh thank you sir may I have another?????

When you are a star or there are so many jobs available, you can walk out on a job. When you are a professional, you find ways to make things work.

If you are a professional the only thing that matters are the Benjamins, loyalty to a corporation or anyone you work for is misplaced, in this world, Darwinian Capitalism is the order of the day. IF Jay Ajayi wins an afc championship with the Ravens, it will be one more than Gase will ever win.

Oh and I am delusional, as Mrs VIPER will attest to, I have this delusion that a football team should progress, not regress, also that if S. Ross gets the right people in the FO, the right coach, and the right team, the fins will win a super bowl, so yeah, I am delusional.

The Ever Deluded VIPER
 
Mrmeeseeks said:
Not Moore. Gase. We're not dealing with Madden players where you can just pick up a player with a better rating and all the players are unaffected. Tannehill went down with Moore as the backup. Moore had been with the team, was respected and played with a lot of heart regardless of how average he was.
So what does Gase do? Throws $10 million at an uninspiring guy who does not play with any fire and isn't enough of an upgrade to justify throwing a great teammate under the bus. Imagine your favorite coworker is passed over for some outsider who isn't much better at the job but is making twice as much now. Would you trust management? Of course not. That's bad leadership. It's nepotism over team.
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The issue with your point is that Moore is terrible. He can't run Gase's offense and call any presnap reads or protections.
 
Trade Viper said:
"I know that Harry, but can he do the job, I'm not arguing that with you, I'm not arguing that with you Harry, if I had said that I would have been wrong, I know he can get the job, but can he do the job"

As a public service announcement, Wes Welker did not win a super bowl ring, only was in 3 AFC championships. (Thanks to Mr, you made me look it up)


And who is our Marino or Lewis on this team? There are only a handful of players in the league that get treated that way: a top X (7ish?) QB and that once in a generation transcendent player like a Lewis. Everyone else is one or two bad interactions with a coach / blown big play away from being benched, traded, or cut.

That wasn't my point, my point was to MFan and his "the beatings will continue until moral improves" theory. IF and this is a big IF, Gase thinks that the whole team are insubordinate, and unwilling to "get with the program" then he should dump everyone, no matter the contract or cost, then start over. In this way he can show everyone who is Boss, like a Boss. Then he can hand pick his players, and never have to blame anyone else, never, ever, ever never again.

When nothing is working, as a (business) manager or coach, you look for ways to get peoples attention. We keep blaming Gase for all the problems on the field -- and since he's the head coach, we should. But we don't know how much is bad coaching, reduced playbooks because the players can't handle the playbook as an individual or unit, how many players are freelancing for stats (for future contacts or existing contact play fors) or just trying so hard because they really care that they are blowing their assignments instead, playing hurt (or more hurt than they have told anyone), OR young coaches that still haven't figured out how to coach a team effectively. What we do know is killing us: our team sucks and still has a ton of holes

What we also know is at least one player, one of our most effective, was blowing things up (not the good way) on and off the field enough that they we willing to trade him mid-season for very little. If you think that was just for show or a coach being petulant (and risking a possibly once in a lifetime job), you're delusional.

OK, lets turn this around, your income is based on salary and bonus, but your bonus depends on how well your "group" or "team" leader performs. Your team leader from last year gets sick, takes a leave of absence, and your boss, hires a buddy of his that has been known to be an idiot, moron, and not very capable of capitalizing on his talents. You know for a certainty, that you will not make your big bonuses like you did last year. How would you feel, would you say oh thank you sir may I have another?????

When you are a star or there are so many jobs available, you can walk out on a job. When you are a professional, you find ways to make things work.

If you are a professional the only thing that matters are the Benjamins, loyalty to a corporation or anyone you work for is misplaced, in this world, Darwinian Capitalism is the order of the day. IF Jay Ajayi wins an afc championship with the Ravens, it will be one more than Gase will ever win.

Oh and I am delusional, as Mrs VIPER will attest to, I have this delusion that a football team should progress, not regress, also that if S. Ross gets the right people in the FO, the right coach, and the right team, the fins will win a super bowl, so yeah, I am delusional.

The Ever Deluded VIPER
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Viper, I think you have a well reasoned response, but I find myself unpersuaded.

I don't believe Gase is unhappy with the entire team. I don't believe he would 'fire the whole lot of them'. I do believe that we're at that place where everyone is just pushing so hard that we're getting the opposite effect and under instead of over achieving. I do believe that everyone is in that 'hair on fire' mode where nothing seems to work. I also believe that Gase isn't all that happy with himself either, but at the end of the day, the guys who put on the pads are the only once who can be on the field.

No matter what you think of the front office, we fielded at 10-6 playoff team (before you scream luck, every team gets some of that every now and then) just a year ago. Not that much changed in personnel (at least with players that we really cared about) or coaches, so you have to look at the impact of a starting QB going down before the start of the season.

I manage large teams of engineers for a living. And while I can't tell you from experience that things map one-to-one with a football team, I can tell you that every now and then, after you've tried all the things you know how to do to get a person/team/project on track, you pull out the big guns to get peoples attention. In the tech world, we have the 'mythical' 10x productivity folks (really more like 2 or 3x in real life, but that's worth a lot) -- and they really do exist -- but much of the time, they have 'special needs' in order to work effectively with others. Sometimes, no matter how much you need their higher productivity or specialized knowledge, they just cause so much extra friction across so many other people that you win with the classic addition by subtraction. Other times, it's that person who flashed so much potential that suddenly tops out, but now that you've done all the things to keep them (e.g., given you can get a new job around here without even having to ride an elevator off your floor, comp flows all too freely to buy a year or two of loyalty), suddenly you have an under performer taking a limited space and/or getting over comp'ed in ways that's bad for the overall budget and you are forced to go in different directions for the health of the team.

You analogy about the boss hiring an "idiot/moron" happens all the time. In our case, Cutler is so under performing expectations, with a team that was so balanced on the edge of average that it all came crashing down. The thing is, Moore has his set of problems too. But while you are correct in pointing out our QB play blows and as result, we're getting the worst out of everyone across the team, what we don't have is any idea of what would/could have been better? Also, without being in the locker room or at team meetings, you (we) don't really know if the entire team feels it's all on our QBs or if they see the fact that everyone is off by 2 or 3 percent and in the NFL, that takes you from the playoffs to thinking about a top 5 draft.

But I do get it. As fans, we're all really ready for this team to turn things around, and for a little longer than just 10 games....

Thanks for the fair and spirited discussion :-)

P.S. If Jay Ajayi wins an AFC championship with the Ravens, it will be something for the record books and he'll go down as one of the worst players in the history of the NFL given that he plays for the Eagles... ;-)
 
RobertHorry said:
The issue with your point is that Moore is terrible. He can't run Gase's offense and call any presnap reads or protections.
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And if that were true, which it isn't, then it is Gase's fault for keeping a backup on the roster at 4 million with a starter coming off a knee injury, and that backup apparently can't play. It always comes back to Gase no matter how you spin it.
 
fin415 said:
I don't think nepotism means what you think it does... (yes, I know the point you were going for and it's somewhat fair, but see my comments) ;-)

1. Very few teams have 2 legit players at QB on their rosters. I would guess thats because A) good DB's are rare with 1/2 the starters in this league not really being that good; B) every #2 thinks they should be the #1; C) eventual cap issues; D) if they are even close to having the possibility of being a #1, see comment 1A -- at least 15 teams would make a run at them every year.
2. So, without a QB on the team that's good enough to really start once RT went down, we have to look at the players available. Since we're not knee deep in draft picks to throw away and because the talent available via draft picks we could use didn't rise to that value in the FO's opinion (one I agree with), we move onto the unemployed.
3. Ignoring all the after-the-fact arm chair GM'ing, I'm going with the reason everyone was unemployed (see 1A) is because the all had some significant flaws.

So, in a world with no good solutions, what kind of risk mitigations are available? The best one out there is working with a player that you know well and who already knows your playbook, someone you felt you could successfully coach up because *you believed you already pulled it off once before*. In theory, you know the players strengths and weaknesses walking in the door at a level far better than watching tape and calling peers for references. Thats as close as you can get to your Madden plug and play player in the real world. What you don't know is how much the time away from the game and/or Father Time will hurt, an interesting year-in and year-out risk in the NFL.

You can say it was a bad decision, and in hindsight, it clearly was. But the Bronco's made it work with an long past anything near his prime Payton Manning with half an arm. For that one year, they are geniuses because it worked and they won the big game. But if it didn't work, we'd be having this conversation. Gase looks bad because we're losing. Moore has proven that he doesn't offer anything better than Cutler, just different kinds of bad, and clearly, some think its actually a worse kind of bad. The $10M cap hit was worth the risk if it had paid off and not so bad because it's a one-and-done contract.

"Throwing a great teammate under the bus" -- so, now you're ok with losing to not hurt a fellow teammates feelings? How does a coach actually coach in that environment? What do you say the all the players who have bonuses tied to performance in their contacts? "I know you could have caught another 10 balls this year, and I know that you would have made an extra $3,000,000, but Matt really worked hard all those years as a backup". I'm starting to wonder if people raising that argument aren't employment/contract lawyers really pushing for a lifetime gig.

A real teammate understands that it's the coaches and GMs job to make the best decisions they can, even if they don't agree with them, and just as it's their job to play their best even when they are losing. They should do this just because that's what professionals do, but if for no other reason to be a *great* teammate and help everyone get to their contact escalators. I've never been a fan of Eli Manning, but my respect for him went up off the chart this last week. He knows what it means to be a great teammate -- he didn't take up the offer to keep starting just to pad his stats, he told the team to get their business done right. And the reports and coming in that he's still in the building early and working with the other QBs to make sure they get all the help he can offer. Now that's a great teammate and a real professional.
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No, I used nepotism correctly. Moore was no less a guarantee failure than Cutler was. You say Gase had worked with Cutler, but he'd worked with Moore just as long. And he won games with Moore at the same clip as Cutler. Then you add in the intagible factors of Cutler coming from the outside, being paid 10 million, and nobody in the league liking him while Moore plays his ass off and players respect it, then you end up with exactly what I mentioned.

So your argument is pretty much void.
 
Mrmeeseeks said:
No, I used nepotism correctly. Moore was no less a guarantee failure than Cutler was. You say Gase had worked with Cutler, but he'd worked with Moore just as long. And he won games with Moore at the same clip as Cutler. Then you add in the intagible factors of Cutler coming from the outside, being paid 10 million, and nobody in the league liking him while Moore plays his *** off and players respect it, then you end up with exactly what I mentioned.

So your argument is pretty much void.
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Nepotism: the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs.

Cutler, as far as anyone knows isn't a relative, and you are confusing having a friendly relationship with the word friend (e.g., unless Gase was calling his friend and asking about the family or inviting him over for dinner, it was a friendly professional relationship) and to quote some posters around here, that would make your argument void.

"He worked with Moore at the same clip as Cutler" is only true if you don't think coaching a player in actual games isn't that important. Moore is a fantastic #2 if all you need is running the second team, a smart guy who can help during practice, works hard to help the #1 in all the ways a NFL #2 needs to in order for the team to be successful. If you add in the requirement of a guy who can come in for a couple of plays, maybe a game or two, he's still pretty good.

But once you look at him as a guy to play for a season, you'd be nuts to count on him. Now you can point out all of Cutlers flaws, how some players didn't like him, etc. But despite all of them, he was a #1 for years -- and as bad as you might think he was as a #1, that makes him better than almost every #2 out there. Of course, based on your tone and response to me, you don't agree and thats fine. I'm going to side with the 31 other teams, who for 11 years with 15 or so teams every year who would upgrade in an instant (didn't someone around here once say "I would play Satin if it would help us win games") if they could, who by their actions say my side of the argument is correct.

Your other argument of Cutler being paid $10m pissing off other players because he's only as/not as good as Moore is 100% hindsightism. If he was winning, that argument would turn into "Gase was a genius and we got a steal at $10m" because starting caliber QBs seem to run $20m these days. A more legitimate argument is that when Cutler decided to retire, no one made a run at him which would strongly suggest that he was done. Unfortunately for us, our guys who are responsible for adding it all up decided that we were well and truly screwed when RT went down, call a Hail Marry. It didn't work.
 
Digital said:
Hey Mr. Poppinga,

It's really a shame that Gase has lost the team. They might have enjoyed celebrating the win with him today. Food for thought for those who carved his tombstone.
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They beat Gase's own understudy who has sank Denver and has lost his own team. Not exactly a "haha told ya so" kind of argument or game. Come back when Gase can beat a winning team.
 
Denver is a great example of what coaching does. Phillips and Kubiak were winning consistently. The roster hasn't fallen off that much. What's new? Coaching.
 
Mrmeeseeks said:
Denver is a great example of what coaching does. Phillips and Kubiak were winning consistently. The roster hasn't fallen off that much. What's new? Coaching.
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That team is awful because Elway is one of the few GMs that drafts worst then the Fins front office.
 
Has nothing to do with beating a team with a losing record. They thrashed Denver and that doesn’t happen if the team has tuned the coach out. The Dolphins have numerous issues but having a coach that lost the locker room isn’t one of them.
 
MadDog 88 said:
Has nothing to do with beating a team with a losing record. They thrashed Denver and that doesn’t happen if the team has tuned the coach out. The Dolphins have numerous issues but having a coach that lost the locker room isn’t one of them.
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Well then I guess Miami should've kept Wannstedt when they whooped the Rams for their first win in 2004.

This is Gase's first win this season, and only 2nd win since Pittsburgh last year, where Miami won by more than one score. Not even Joe Philbin had such trouble beating teams up. His last full season featured a 37-0 beat down of the Chargers and a 22-9 win over the Bills. He must've had that team motivated and prepared, eh?
 
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