Brady suspended 4 games, Patriots lose first round pick in 2016 | Page 39 | FinHeaven - Miami Dolphins Forums

Brady suspended 4 games, Patriots lose first round pick in 2016

Patriot fans' defense:
1. No way did we do anything. That happened naturally
2. Everyone around the league does it, so what's the big deal. Why are we being punished for what everyone does?
If one is true, then two isn't. If two is, correct, then one isn't. Pick your poison.
 
Who is allowed to put a pin in the footballs after the referee has approved them for game play? I'm not talking just about a bare pin but
any pin weather it is a pressure gauge or a deflation pin?
 
Who is allowed to put a pin in the footballs after the referee has approved them for game play? I'm not talking just about a bare pin but
any pin weather it is a pressure gauge or a deflation pin?

whether*

Apparently this guy.

getimage.aspx
 
It appears to be part of Rule 2, Section 1 of the NFL rulebook

Once the game starts, neither team is allowed to gauge the footballs, pump them, or the like. That is solely the province of the referee, who is to be the "sole judge" of whether footballs comply.
 
I believe this....if you check the balls at pregame inspection and all balls are either set or already at 12.5 psi with a specific pressure gauge then you recheck them at half time or post game with that same pressure gauge. To me that would be the most accurate way to compare the pressure drop.

I agree. But since they checked them with both gauges at halftime, it doesn't matter.


As to the .3 to .45 variation between the 2 different pressure gauges no where did the wells report state which gauge was accurate.

The whole argument for why they believe Anderson used the non logo gauge at halftime has to be based on it being the accurate one. It is a known fact that the Patriots inflate their footballs to the bottom end at 12.5PSI. Why in the world would Exponent come to the conclusion that Anderson used the non logo gauge (The hypothetical non accurate gauge which reads .4 less) if Anderson reported reading the Patriots ball pressure at 12.5PSI? That makes no sense! If the non logo gauge is not the accurate gauge, then Exponent based their entire argument on something they knew could easily be disproved. I find that highly unlikely.

I have read the wells report and also have seen how the team and Brady is not letting this drop. The wells report
is 95% rubbish. I believe that Brady asked for 12.5 psi and nothing less than 12.5.

“But when Gronk scores – it was like his eighth touchdown of the year – he spikes the ball and he deflates the ball. I love that, because I like the deflated ball. But I feel bad for that football, because he puts everything he can into those spikes,” Brady said at the time.

Then I guess you also believe that the "Deflator" is reference to weight loss? :lol: What does Brady or the Patriots have to lose by not letting this go? They have taken another hit to their reputation, and can't be punished any more. By not letting it go, at least they have people like you thinking that they must be innocent if they are throwing such a stink about it.

I hope they continue to fight this, and I hope it goes to court. I want them to subpena Brady's phone records. That would go a long way in proving guilt or innocence.


Regarding the ideal gas law you can read this link or google search it for your self.


http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/20...ooler-place/2KfFPHn9dARXXCwMgBMSkO/story.html

HeadSmart Labs, a Pittsburgh research company working on preventing head injuries from sports, said that it conducted a study that found weather and field conditions alone could have lowered the pressure by as much as 1.95 psi. “We took 12 brand-new authentic NFL footballs and exposed them to the different elements they would have experienced throughout the game,” said Thomas Healy, founder of HeadSmart Labs, in a press release. “Out of the 12 footballs we tested, we found that, on average, footballs dropped 1.8 psi when being exposed to dropping temperatures and wet conditions.”

There are too many variables that are in play to come to a conclusion based on the ideal gas law alone. Most of those scientist claimed a max of 1.5PSI drop in pressure, which would not explain one of the Patriots footballs that was 1.6PSI under. And that 1.6PSI drop is assuming that Anderson used the gauge that reads .4 higher for pregame, which is not likely.

Headsmart Labs comes up with 1.8PSI drop, but they don't know all the factors that took place like Exponent does. Exponent has access to all the information to produce a far more reliable experiment. I trust them more than I trust a Lab running a random experiment before knowing any of the key factors.
 
I agree. But since they checked them with both gauges at halftime, it doesn't matter.

Of course it matters. If Walt Anderson checked those balls with the logo gauge and approved them at 12.5 psi then using the non logo gage
at half time would give readings .3 to .45 psi lower as it did compared to the no logo gauge. Another interesting fact is the non logo gauge showed
3 of the 4 colts balls to be below 12.5 also but the league chose to take the logo readings for the colts balls and the non logo readings for the patriots
balls. If you're going to use one gauge as law for one team then shouldn't those reading from that same gauge also be the ones you take as law for the other team? Not according the wells report.




The whole argument for why they believe Anderson used the non logo gauge at halftime has to be based on it being the accurate one. It is a known fact that the Patriots inflate their footballs to the bottom end at 12.5PSI. Why in the world would Exponent come to the conclusion that Anderson used the non logo gauge (The hypothetical non accurate gauge which reads .4 less) if Anderson reported reading the Patriots ball pressure at 12.5PSI? That makes no sense! If the non logo gauge is not the accurate gauge, then Exponent based their entire argument on something they knew could easily be disproved. I find that highly unlikely.

It doesn't matter which one is the accurate one. The accurate way to gauge the drop in pressure is to use the same gauge used for pregame inspection/approval that way you haven't introduced an obvious .3 to .45 added pressure drop. You have to ask yourself why did Wells
accept all of Andersons recollections regarding pregame pressures and procedures except for 1 and that was the gauge he used. He recollected using the logo gauge just as he did everything else he kept no written record of. Why was wells so insistent to get Anderson to change his mind to say it could have possibly used the non logo gauge? if nothing else you have to admit it is a little fishy.
I think originally the reason for the two gauges at half time was due to the time constraints nothing to due with which of the two was accurate but upon recording readings they discovered the two gauges didn't match.
You need to do a little google search of exponent, they aren't as trust worthy as you seem to think. Did you know according to exponent
second hand cigarette smoke doesn't cause cancer and asbestos doesn't cause mesothelioma (sp) and the list goes on and on with that company.
They are a hired gun by large corps being sued to make a conclusion in favor of their clients. Don't believe me look them up.





Then I guess you also believe that the "Deflator" is reference to weight loss? :lol: What does Brady or the Patriots have to lose by not letting this go? They have taken another hit to their reputation, and can't be punished any more. By not letting it go, at least they have people like you thinking that they must be innocent if they are throwing such a stink about it.

I hope they continue to fight this, and I hope it goes to court. I want them to subpena Brady's phone records. That would go a long way in proving guilt or innocence.

If you were accused by your employer of wrong doing would you admit to it and take a punishment to make it go away if you were innocent? I certainly wouldn't. Also if I were Brady and especially after all the leaks and witch hunt proceedings he'd seen I wouldn't have turned over my personal cell phone either, and most if not all legal experts would have given the same advice. What did wells need it for anyway, he already had the other two phones so had Brady texted either of them asking to deflate balls
after pregame approval Wells would have already had it on those phones. It is a fact that what Wells had from those two phones was that an nfl official had over inflated the pats balls to almost 16lbs at the jets game earlier in the season and that Brady wanted the equipment guy to bring a copy
of rule 2 with him to show to the refs so they wouldn't over inflate them. Rule 2 states 12.5 - 13.5 psi. Nothing illegal that I saw in those text.
How come the league isn't investigating its own officials for approving balls that were obviously not legal for game play vs. the jets. Here's another
one for the integrity of the shield

Rule 2, Section 1 of the NFL rulebook

Once the game starts, neither team is allowed to gauge the footballs, pump them, or the like. That is solely the province of the referee, who is to be the "sole judge" of whether footballs comply.

The colts equipment guy stuck an air pressure gauge into the intercepted ball on the sideline not once but three times during the second quarter. Under rule 2 section 1 that was illegal but as of this time has the league fined them for breaking a league rule? This Whole wells report was a witch hunt
from the get go and if you believe Wells was impartial and independent then I have a bridge you might be interested in buying. I too hope this goes to court






There are too many variables that are in play to come to a conclusion based on the ideal gas law alone. Most of those scientist claimed a max of 1.5PSI drop in pressure, which would not explain one of the Patriots footballs that was 1.6PSI under. And that 1.6PSI drop is assuming that Anderson used the gauge that reads .4 higher for pregame, which is not likely.

Headsmart Labs comes up with 1.8PSI drop, but they don't know all the factors that took place like Exponent does. Exponent has access to all the information to produce a far more reliable experiment. I trust them more than I trust a Lab running a random experiment before knowing any of the key factors.


You really need to do a little research on Exponent. They were paid by wells and the nfl to support a predetermined conclusion. Unless those tested balls were subjected to identical game conditions i.e. temps, rain, humidity, amount of playing time along with being subjected to actual use by players then Exponents results would be no more accurate than any research lab.

The rumors I'm hearing is that Brady wants his name cleared and all suspensions removed and penalties remove or he is going to take the league
court and I hope he does just that. There was no smoking gun here and most probably at least generally aware doesn't wash for me. Ted Wells
must be laughing his A$$ off all the way to the bank with his 5 mil fee for producing 243 pgs of toilet paper.
 
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Of course it matters. If Walt Anderson checked those balls with the logo gauge and approved them at 12.5 psi then using the non logo gage
at half time would give readings .3 to .45 psi lower as it did compared to the no logo gauge. Another interesting fact is the non logo gauge showed
3 of the 4 colts balls to be below 12.5 also but the league chose to take the logo readings for the colts balls and the non logo readings for the patriots
balls. If you're going to use one gauge as law for one team then shouldn't those reading from that same gauge also be the ones you take as law for the other team? Not according the wells report.

No, it doesn't. They took readings from both gauges at halftime. With either gauge used, the Patriots balls were more deflated than the Colts.

I agree with the last part of your statement. He should have used the non logo gauge for measuring the Colts footballs. Yes, they were under but barely.



It doesn't matter which one is the accurate one. The accurate way to gauge the drop in pressure is to use the same gauge used for pregame inspection/approval that way you haven't introduced an obvious .3 to .45 added pressure drop. You have to ask yourself why did Wells
accept all of Andersons recollections regarding pregame pressures and procedures except for 1 and that was the gauge he used. He recollected using the logo gauge just as he did everything else he kept no written record of. Why was wells so insistent to get Anderson to change his mind to say it could have possibly used the non logo gauge? if nothing else you have to admit it is a little fishy.
I think originally the reason for the two gauges at half time was due to the time constraints nothing to due with which of the two was accurate but upon recording readings they discovered the two gauges didn't match.
You need to do a little google search of exponent, they aren't as trust worthy as you seem to think. Did you know according to exponent
second hand cigarette smoke doesn't cause cancer and asbestos doesn't cause mesothelioma (sp) and the list goes on and on with that company.
They are a hired gun by large corps being sued to make a conclusion in favor of their clients. Don't believe me look them up.

Sure it matters. If you don't know which gauge is accurate then you can't come to a conclusion in regards to which gauge was used for the pregame inspection. That is important. Anderson said the Patriots balls were 12.5PSI when he checked them pregame. Since it is widely known that the Patriots like the footballs at 12.5PSI, then obviously Anderson used an accurate gauge when he came up with a 12.5 PSI reading.

I believe that they accepted all of Anderson's recollections except which gauge he used because he thought he used a faulty calibrated gauge that reads .4 higher. That wouldn't make sense when the readings came in at 12.5PSI for the Patriots balls which would be accurate according to the Patriots. You keep saying that Wells was insistent that Anderson changed his mind. Based on what? Has Anderson come out and said that he is certain that he used the logo gauge but Wells pressured him into saying otherwise? The report said that Anderson thought that he used the logo gauge, but wasn't sure.

I believe that Wells / Exponent isn't foolish enough to base their entire arguments on deflation based on a non accurate gauge that reads .4 less than the pressure really is. They know the non logo gauge is accurate which is why they say Anderson used it pregame. Regardless, Exponent went to ludicrous measures to test all possible variations including using the data from the logo gauge pregame and the non logo gauge pregame. They could not find a set of realistic conditions that replicated the amount of deflation the Patriots footballs had.

In regards to trying to discredit Exponent: They are a consulting firm. They have 900 scientists, physicians, engineers, and regulatory consultants. I don't know which one of them said 2nd hand smoke doesn't cause cancer, and I don't know what they base that on. What I do know if that the credentials of the scientist / engineers they got for this task is ridiculous.


If you were accused by your employer of wrong doing would you admit to it and take a punishment to make it go away if you were innocent? I certainly wouldn't. Also if I were Brady and especially after all the leaks and witch hunt proceedings he'd seen I wouldn't have turned over my personal cell phone either, and most if not all legal experts would have given the same advice. What did wells need it for anyway, he already had the other two phones so had Brady texted either of them asking to deflate balls
after pregame approval Wells would have already had it on those phones. It is a fact that what Wells had from those two phones was that an nfl official had over inflated the pats balls to almost 16lbs at the jets game earlier in the season and that Brady wanted the equipment guy to bring a copy
of rule 2 with him to show to the refs so they wouldn't over inflate them. Rule 2 states 12.5 - 13.5 psi. Nothing illegal that I saw in those text.
How come the league isn't investigating its own officials for approving balls that were obviously not legal for game play vs. the jets. Here's another
one for the integrity of the shield

Rule 2, Section 1 of the NFL rulebook

Once the game starts, neither team is allowed to gauge the footballs, pump them, or the like. That is solely the province of the referee, who is to be the "sole judge" of whether footballs comply.

The colts equipment guy stuck an air pressure gauge into the intercepted ball on the sideline not once but three times during the second quarter. Under rule 2 section 1 that was illegal but as of this time has the league fined them for breaking a league rule? This Whole wells report was a witch hunt
from the get go and if you believe Wells was impartial and independent then I have a bridge you might be interested in buying. I too hope this goes to court

If I was innocent, I would cooperate and wouldn't have lied during the investigation. I would have given them my text and phone records. I wouldn't refuse followup interviews and wouldn't have left out important details like going to the bathroom with the footballs that were later found to be deflated.

Aaron Hernandez has Legal experts. Their job is to keep you from being found guilty. They don't want anyone to find things that can and will be used against you. In regards to why they need Brady's records; Who says that Brady only communicated with those two guys? With the amount of concessions offered to Brady to protect private information, it certainly doesn't look good when he still refused to release them. The real question is why not release them?

You really think the NFL should go after the Colts for checking to see if the Patriots were really cheating? It may be against the rules, but they did it to prove what they had been tipped off to, which was the Patriots deflating footballs.


You really need to do a little research on Exponent. They were paid by wells and the nfl to support a predetermined conclusion. Unless those tested balls were subjected to identical game conditions i.e. temps, rain, humidity, amount of playing time along with being subjected to actual use by players then Exponents results would be no more accurate than any research lab.

The rumors I'm hearing is that Brady wants his name cleared and all suspensions removed and penalties remove or he is going to take the league
court and I hope he does just that. There was no smoking gun here and most probably at least generally aware doesn't wash for me. Ted Wells
must be laughing his A$$ off all the way to the bank with his 5 mil fee for producing 243 pgs of toilet paper.

So the same commissioner that burned tapes in the last cheating scandal paid a guy to come up with a predetermined conclusion of guilt? For what? How does NE being found guilty of cheating again help the NFL?

You need to do more research on the individuals who were part of the investigation and not Exponent as a whole. Read through the report again. The amount of testing they conducted of all possible details is crazy, which is why their results are far more accurate than any research lab.

You and Kraft must be forgetting that the NFL doesn't need a smoking gun. There is enough in the report. I too hope this goes to court. I seriously doubt it happens becasue Brady knows that his phone records could be subpenaed, and I don't think he wants to make those public. I wonder why? :ponder:
 
No, it doesn't. They took readings from both gauges at halftime. With either gauge used, the Patriots balls were more deflated than the Colts.

I agree with the last part of your statement. He should have used the non logo gauge for measuring the Colts footballs. Yes, they were under but barely.

It doesn't matter if you don't believe temp has no effect on air pressure but it does. That's 8th grade science. If you use the logo gauge reading then all but 1 ball falls into the predicted range of the IGL. Barely or not they are still illegal under rule 2. You are more than willing to split hairs when it comes to the colts balls being under but remember those same colts balls supposedly started out at 13 psi.





Sure it matters. If you don't know which gauge is accurate then you can't come to a conclusion in regards to which gauge was used for the pregame inspection. That is important. Anderson said the Patriots balls were 12.5PSI when he checked them pregame. Since it is widely known that the Patriots like the footballs at 12.5PSI, then obviously Anderson used an accurate gauge when he came up with a 12.5 PSI reading.

No where in the wells report did he state which gauge was accurate or whether either was accurate or even if they cared. The claim made was the patriots deflated balls after they were checked and approved by referee Anderson. The only accurate way
to access that claim is to check them with the same gauge used at pregame inspection, the one Anderson claims he set or checked all the balls with. 12.5 psi for the pats and 13 psi for the colts. Anderson said to the best of his recollection he used the logo gauge. He didn't relent until wells pressured him by asking him over and over and then suggesting to him but isn't possible he could have used the non logo gauge. Why would he question only that recollection and nothing else?


I believe that they accepted all of Anderson's recollections except which gauge he used because he thought he used a faulty calibrated gauge that reads .4 higher. That wouldn't make sense when the readings came in at 12.5PSI for the Patriots balls which would be accurate according to the Patriots. You keep saying that Wells was insistent that Anderson changed his mind. Based on what? Has Anderson come out and said that he is certain that he used the logo gauge but Wells pressured him into saying otherwise? The report said that Anderson thought that he used the logo gauge, but wasn't sure.

Nothing in the wells report claims or insinuates there was a faulty gauge. I believe you'll find every air pressure gauge is not 100% accurate and again accuracy of gauges wasn't the issue if the pressure readings at the half with the same gauge as pregame inspection. The patriots released the Wells Report in Context http://wellsreportcontext.com/ on their site which answers to the wells report, I know you must have read it by your deflate=wait loss comment. They state how wells talked Anderson into changing his mind about the gauge he used.

I believe that Wells / Exponent isn't foolish enough to base their entire arguments on deflation based on a non accurate gauge that reads .4 less than the pressure really is. They know the non logo gauge is accurate which is why they say Anderson used it pregame. Regardless, Exponent went to ludicrous measures to test all possible variations including using the data from the logo gauge pregame and the non logo gauge pregame. They could not find a set of realistic conditions that replicated the amount of deflation the Patriots footballs had.

Do me a favor read the Wells report and see if you can find in those 243 pgs where either Wells or exponent states which gauge is accurate or if it mattered to them.

In regards to trying to discredit Exponent: They are a consulting firm. They have 900 scientists, physicians, engineers, and regulatory consultants. I don't know which one of them said 2nd hand smoke doesn't cause cancer, and I don't know what they base that on. What I do know if that the credentials of the scientist / engineers they got for this task is ridiculous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exponent_(consulting_firm)
Exponent (consulting firm)

under the heading "Questioned neutrality"

The quality and neutrality of reports produced by the company has been called into question on various controversial topics. Common points of critique include corporate denialism and that, for industrial clients, only favorable reports are seemingly produced. Among other, Exponent has argued for that dioxins and passive smoking do not cause cancer.[SUP][citation needed][/SUP]
According to the Los Angeles Times, "Exponent's research has come under fire from critics, including engineers, attorneys and academics who say the company tends to deliver to clients the reports they need to mount a public defense."[SUP][15][/SUP] Exponent's executive chairman responded that such criticism is a "cheap shot", responding "Do we tell our clients a lot of what they don't want to hear? Absolutely." but that they also often come up with results not favoring their clients. No concrete examples were however provides for the paper. In 2009, the Amazon Defense Coalition criticized an Exponent study commissioned by the energy company Chevron that dumping oil waste didn't cause cancer because Chevron's largest shareholder was a director on Exponent's board.[SUP][16][/SUP] The firm was also criticized for assisting industry efforts to reduce chromium regulation.[SUP][18][/SUP]



if I was innocent, I would cooperate and wouldn't have lied during the investigation. I would have given them my text and phone records. I wouldn't refuse followup interviews and wouldn't have left out important details like going to the bathroom with the footballs that were later found to be deflated.

Aaron Hernandez has Legal experts. Their job is to keep you from being found guilty. They don't want anyone to find things that can and will be used against you. In regards to why they need Brady's records; Who says that Brady only communicated with those two guys? With the amount of concessions offered to Brady to protect private information, it certainly doesn't look good when he still refused to release them. The real question is why not release them?

You really think the NFL should go after the Colts for checking to see if the Patriots were really cheating? It may be against the rules, but they did it to prove what they had been tipped off to, which was the Patriots deflating footballs..


I don't know who lied during the investigation but I'm assuming you mean Brady? What was this lie, that he never told anyone
to deflate balls after they had been approved? That's what Wells charged the NFL to prove but he can't. He thinks Brady is lying but that doesn't make it true and he hasn't got anything to prove that. I believe Brady was telling the truth.

The colts should have taken the suspect ball to the head ref and had him check the pressure but instead they stuck a pressure
gauge into the ball which is a clear violation of nfl rule 2 section1. They should be fined for that,....isn't it all about "integrity" across the league?

So the same commissioner that burned tapes in the last cheating scandal paid a guy to come up with a predetermined conclusion of guilt? For what? How does NE being found guilty of cheating again help the NFL? .

The league mishandled this from the get go. They were asked to assure that the balls would be given special attention and the league treated those concerns with disregard. They went about business as normal and they now over reacted trying to save face. They dropped the ball plain and simple. Their are so many lapses in protocol by the league in the wells report yet Wells has seemed to bury them neatly in footnotes. We can't point any fingers in the face of his goose with the golden eggs he might not get any more eggs.


You need to do more research on the individuals who were part of the investigation and not Exponent as a whole. Read through the report again. The amount of testing they conducted of all possible details is crazy, which is why their results are far more accurate than any research lab.

You and Kraft must be forgetting that the NFL doesn't need a smoking gun. There is enough in the report. I too hope this goes to court. I seriously doubt it happens becasue Brady knows that his phone records could be subpenaed, and I don't think he wants to make those public. I wonder why? :ponder:


We'll see how well Exponent and the Wells report holds up in court cause thats where this is headed.
 
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