Can we get Seattle's OC?

[nyjunc]

quiet vaark- knowledgeable football fans are trying to have a discussion.

---------- Post added at 02:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 PM ----------

Nah bro, they were god awful. Tannehill was holding onto the ball too long, yes, but even considering that the OL was horrible. Theyve gotten better, but any Dolphin fan will tell you the OL was worse than, "not very good". Too many times this season have we seen the ball get snapped and immediately the defender is in the backfield.

Every fanbase may hate their OC, but we have good reason to. Anyone in their right mind would say that, in any situation, a shotgun run on 3rd and 2 is not just a bad call but a horrible call. Even if it works its a bad call. A RB sweep on 4th and 1 using a slow Daniel thomas instead of a fast Lamar Miller is not only a bad call, its a horrible call and even if it works its still a horrible call.

fair enough, again I'm not saying they are great I just have seen much worse OLs through the years.

I remember when it was all dan henning's fault too and Jet fans thought it was all Brian Schottenheimer's fault.

 

[Vaark]

Let's put this to rest once and for all. Here are two comments made by Mike Westhoff regarding Sanchez:

As for Sanchez, Westoff expressed doubts that he could be the kind of talent who shoulders the burden of an imperfectly designed offense. The first two years of Sanchez's career, when the Jets twice went to the AFC Championship Game, were the result of an all-around good team, Westhoff said.

"[Sanchez was the] manageable part of a good football team," Westhoff said. " ... Then all of a sudden, the burden was thrust on Mark and that's just too much for him, in my opinion. Also, I think the whole offense needs to be designed around Mark, and you can say that it was, but there are just some things he doesn't do as well."

Mike Westhoff, who served as special-teams coach when the Jets reached the A.F.C. championship game during their first two seasons with Mark Sanchez, said of Sanchez’s role: “He was on the bus. I don’t believe he was driving it.”

Links:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/sto...-special-teams-coach-critical-team-management
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/02/s...start-for-a-jets-rookie.html?ref=sports&_r=1&

I'm sure you will disparage the source but the fact remains that his opinion is exactly what I (and numerous others) have been telling you for four years. Sanchez is a fundamentally flawed QB that needs to be protected in an offense and be in an ideal situation to succeed. That is why he is not the starter for the Jets. That is why he will likely never be a starter again.

Don't sweat it, the majority of the TGG posters - they're still mostly his fellow homers, but the more knowledgeable ones, realize that he sucked in that SD game and with the exception of a legitimately good game against the Pats, was basically either a non-factor or liability in the 09 and '10 postseasons. And what's pointed out frequently to junc who tries to blame the defense for giving up too many points to an anemic opposing offense, blaming them in general, blaming the cast of characters, and blaming Sparano who we all told him would suck but he poopoo'ed it is that no matter who the receiver is, if he's open and Buttboy continues to shuffle around on happy feet before again throwing into triple coverage, it means over 4 years, he's learned little to improve himself and has probably plateau'ed in terms of potential.

 

[hoops]

Let's put this to rest once and for all. Here are two comments made by Mike Westhoff regarding Sanchez:

As for Sanchez, Westoff expressed doubts that he could be the kind of talent who shoulders the burden of an imperfectly designed offense. The first two years of Sanchez's career, when the Jets twice went to the AFC Championship Game, were the result of an all-around good team, Westhoff said.

"[Sanchez was the] manageable part of a good football team," Westhoff said. " ... Then all of a sudden, the burden was thrust on Mark and that's just too much for him, in my opinion. Also, I think the whole offense needs to be designed around Mark, and you can say that it was, but there are just some things he doesn't do as well."

Mike Westhoff, who served as special-teams coach when the Jets reached the A.F.C. championship game during their first two seasons with Mark Sanchez, said of Sanchez’s role: “He was on the bus. I don’t believe he was driving it.”

Links:

http://espn.go.com/new-york/nfl/sto...-special-teams-coach-critical-team-management
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/02/s...start-for-a-jets-rookie.html?ref=sports&_r=1&

I'm sure you will disparage the source but the fact remains that his opinion is exactly what I (and numerous others) have been telling you for four years. Sanchez is a fundamentally flawed QB that needs to be protected in an offense and be in an ideal situation to succeed. That is why he is not the starter for the Jets. That is why he will likely never be a starter again.

you could watch the games and tell it also...and when they did try to become a more passing team and spread guys out and make mark the focal point of the offense the year after the playoffs runs he failed miserably...

 

[dolpns13]

quiet vaark- knowledgeable football fans are trying to have a discussion.

---------- Post added at 02:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 PM ----------



fair enough, again I'm not saying they are great I just have seen much worse OLs through the years.

I remember when it was all dan henning's fault too and Jet fans thought it was all Brian Schottenheimer's fault.

I thought Schottenhiemer was a good OC but Im not the subject matter expert, you guys were, just like youre not the subject matter expert here, we are.

TBH Im not sure who's worse, Henning or Sherman. A bad OC is an OC who continues to run the same plays when they simply are not working and are too stubborn to go with something else. They are also bad whena majority of the time the fans can call the play before the ball is snapped. Sherman is known for his bad shotgun runs on third downs as well as running the ball when we should pass and passing the ball when we should run. Henning is known for his crappy wildcat offense that he continued to run in year three when every defense had figured it out. I believe it really netted less than 3 yards per play but he still ran it. And the continuous play action passes from him on 3rd and 15+!?!?!? Thats a fundamental flaw.

 

[nyjunc]

you could watch the games and tell it also...and when they did try to become a more passing team and spread guys out and make mark the focal point of the offense the year after the playoffs runs he failed miserably...

A little background on that.

a) we couldn't run and got behind early forcing us to throw a ton
b) 3 of the top 5 weapons in the pass game would be out of football after that season(LT, Mason, Plax)


But it looks great on paper w/o any context, the bottom line is this. when he had talent he was good and was a huge part of 2 title game runs and not the reason we lost either of them. when the talent went down his #s actually went up in 2011 though he wasn't as good and when he had nothing and Sparano in 2012 he was awful.

I thought Schottenhiemer was a good OC but Im not the subject matter expert, you guys were, just like youre not the subject matter expert here, we are.

TBH Im not sure who's worse, Henning or Sherman. A bad OC is an OC who continues to run the same plays when they simply are not working and are too stubborn to go with something else. They are also bad whena majority of the time the fans can call the play before the ball is snapped. Sherman is known for his bad shotgun runs on third downs as well as running the ball when we should pass and passing the ball when we should run. Henning is known for his crappy wildcat offense that he continued to run in year three when every defense had figured it out. I believe it really netted less than 3 yards per play but he still ran it. And the continuous play action passes from him on 3rd and 15+!?!?!? Thats a fundamental flaw.

I liked Brian, I felt he was the scapegoat, fans always need the scapegoat.

 

[GasPed]

Right, so anyhow, I agree that Seattle's OC is doing a great job, but his personnel across the board (as in every single position) is better than ours. And as someone who watches the Hawks a lot (my 2nd favorite team), Russell Wilson is a huge talent. The only thing he lacks is height - everything else (i.e. speed/athleticism, arm strength, touch, accuracy, footwork, vision, smarts, etc.) is top 5 caliber. And his intangibles (character, intelligence, heart) are fantastic too. Even when his team is down and his own performance is poor, he has a way of elevating everyone in the 4th quarter and getting the W. Can't say enough about him really - right now he's the epitome of a franchise QB.

 

[hoops]

i don't buy the lack of talent argument...when santonio holmes first got there he was a hell of a talent...and other than sanchez throwing maybe the best quick slant ball in football to holmes who ran the best quick slant route then sanchez missed guys all over the place that were open...scattershot accuracy to say the least...plax could still play a little when he was there could make plays on vertical fades etc mason still had some gas in the tank left not much but some he fell off his 2nd year there if i recall correctly and lt found the fountain of youth his first year there...

the jets had enough talent...the qb just sucked...took bad sacks airmailed balls missed wide open underneath guys...no wonder santonio holmes walked out of a huddle one time after arguing with sanchez...the qb was not good

and keller was a solid security blanket if not a special seam guy

 

[Shouright]

Right, so anyhow, I agree that Seattle's OC is doing a great job, but his personnel across the board (as in every single position) is better than ours. And as someone who watches the Hawks a lot (my 2nd favorite team), Russell Wilson is a huge talent. The only thing he lacks is height - everything else (i.e. speed/athleticism, arm strength, touch, accuracy, footwork, vision, smarts, etc.) is top 5 caliber. And his intangibles (character, intelligence, heart) are fantastic too. Even when his team is down and his own performance is poor, he has a way of elevating everyone in the 4th quarter and getting the W. Can't say enough about him really - right now he's the epitome of a franchise QB.

Although his height is obviously not ideal, let's not forget that he's but a mere inch shorter than Drew Brees.

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

I haven't watched as much as you guys but I have seen you play a lot, the OL is not very good but it's not awful either. They get too much blame for the sacks allowed, the sack this week was the QBs fault. I have seen others his fault as well.

EVERY fanbase hates their OC, I was at the Jets-Pats playoff game in 2010 and the fans were going nuts bashing the OC and they had a GREAT offense. It is what fans do.



don't be a vaark, you are better than that. Westhoff said essentially he didn't carry the Jets there like a Brady does in NE which is 100% true and I have never disputed.

Westhoff doesn't say anything negative. I think you guys misinterpret his comments. We won w/ defense first but that doesn't take away from the huge role Mark played. W/o him playing the way he did we don't win 4 playoff games.

It's amazing that fans would rather have fantasy #s than win games, people think if you throw for 300 you have had a great game.


I will give a blind example, please don't look it up. Which QB do you think had a better game?

QB A: 20-33, 61%, 233 yds, 2 TDs, 0 INTs, 102.2 rating
QB B: 10-19, 53%, 133 yds, 0 TDs, 2 INTs, 35.5 rating

You are misinterpreting his comments. His comments reflect my opinion of Sanchez perfectly. He was sheltered during his first two years. That cannot go on forever because you cannot count on your defense and running game all the time. When they opened up the offense in 2011, Sanchez regressed. When things got worse in 2012, he imploded. He wasn't just held back by the lack of talent, HE IMPLODED. There is a big difference.

QBs are supposed to lead teams. They are supposed to drive the bus. I'm not saying he had no role during 2009-2010, but on balance, over the course of the year, he was a net negative. Period. BTW, that is perfectly fine for a rookie/2nd year guy, BUT (as I told you then) he needed to continue to improve and he did not. In fact, he regressed. Partly because of the decrease in talent on the team and partly because he was playing worse. His biggest issues? Inconsistent decision making, piss poor accuracy and panic under fire too often. You thought I was nuts for even suggesting that Sanchez could lose his job, but as we see, I was absolutely correct in my assessment and in perfect agreement with an insider (Westhoff).

 

[nyjunc]

i don't buy the lack of talent argument...when santonio holmes first got there he was a hell of a talent...and other than sanchez throwing maybe the best quick slant ball in football to holmes who ran the best quick slant route then sanchez missed guys all over the place that were open...scattershot accuracy to say the least...plax could still play a little when he was there could make plays on vertical fades etc mason still had some gas in the tank left not much but some he fell off his 2nd year there if i recall correctly and lt found the fountain of youth his first year there...

the jets had enough talent...the qb just sucked...took bad sacks airmailed balls missed wide open underneath guys...no wonder santonio holmes walked out of a huddle one time after arguing with sanchez...the qb was not good

and keller was a solid security blanket if not a special seam guy

Why didn't anyone sign Plax? he was a good RZ threat but btw the 20s was almost useless.

The top 3 receivers went from Holmes, Braylon & Cotch in 2010 to Holmes, Plax and mason(then rookie Kerley after we cut Mason) in 2011. HUGE difference, we also had Wayne Hunter starting for an entire year and we couldn't run the ball especially early in the season.

Mason had nothing left. he was only w/ us for 5 games before we released him.

we had enough talent to make the playoffs that year w/o a doubt and we should have but mark and the entire team collapsed the last 3 weeks.

You are misinterpreting his comments. His comments reflect my opinion of Sanchez perfectly. He was sheltered during his first two years. That cannot go on forever because you cannot count on your defense and running game all the time. When they opened up the offense in 2011, Sanchez regressed. When things got worse in 2012, he imploded. He wasn't just held back by the lack of talent, HE IMPLODED. There is a big difference.

QBs are supposed to lead teams. They are supposed to drive the bus. I'm not saying he had no role during 2009-2010, but on balance, over the course of the year, he was a net negative. Period. BTW, that is perfectly fine for a rookie/2nd year guy, BUT (as I told you then) he needed to continue to improve and he did not. In fact, he regressed. Partly because of the decrease in talent on the team and partly because he was playing worse. His biggest issues? Inconsistent decision making, piss poor accuracy and panic under fire too often. You thought I was nuts for even suggesting that Sanchez could lose his job, but as we see, I was absolutely correct in my assessment and in perfect agreement with an insider (Westhoff).

again, the plan wasn't to throw all over the place in 2011, that became the plan b/c we couldn't run and mark was bringing us back in games every week after we couldn't run early. he set a franchise record for total TDs in 2011.

In 2012 no QB would have succeeded w/ what he had to work with and it wasn't just the talent but Sparano, tebow, etc...

Ryan isn't driving the bus for you guys, will you mind if you make the playoffs? this is so silly, he was a huge part of those teams even though he wasn't the primary focus.

 

[finfan54]

there was no one in the zip code on 2 of those red zone tds from wilson yesterday...i see that a lot with them...wide open guys no one anywhere near em...maybe some of thats the qbs just that good at seeing the field and finding open guys and i'm underselling it but i think the oc is setting the kid up with terrific looks for sure...play design vs the coverage they got on both those 2 tds were money i know that much...

the other thing i notice is he doesn;t come to the los and check out of a play very often...i know he is given a run pass option but you rarely see him back off the los and adjust to what the d gives him...guess those first calls are pretty money...

his vertical accuracy though is pretty spot on...ball can float a little but even when he makes a mistake he seems to never pay for it...

or maybe Wilson just trusts his own athleticism, strong running game, and great defense to make it easy for him.

 

[hoops]

the plan was to throw it all over the place in 2011...to run a more open offense...yes it was...a plan that i said back then was a bad one...that they should stick with the running game pa and defense...schottenheimer made a complete qb misread on that one or whoever was putting the pressure on to be a more mark sanchez will carry us offense...whether it be the gm who was fired the oc who was fired or the hc who should be fired

in 2012 under sparano the plan was a dumpster fire...from the get go...

the jets lost their identity in 2011...

 

[trojanma]

Wilson is asked to carry his offense less than any quarterback in the league, as the Seahawks run the ball a greater percentage of the time (roughly 53%) than any other team.

However, Wilson attempts the fifth-most passes in the league of at least 20 yards in the air, and he completes the greatest percentage of passes in the league (a whopping 60%) of that kind.

Tannehill, by contrast, is asked to pass the ball on a greater percentage of his team's offensive plays, but his downfield throws are less frequent (10% to Wilson's 14.8%), and he completes only 35.6% of them.

Seattle's line surrenders the second-greatest percentage of pressured dropbacks in the league (45.2%), to the Dolphins' 32.9%, which ranks 23rd in the league. Moreover, Tannehill is sacked on a league-leading 26.9% of his pressured dropbacks, whereas Wilson is 17th in the league in that regard, at 17.6%. The Dolphins' line is ranked 17th in the league in pass blocking efficiency by PFF, whereas Seattle's line is ranked 20th.

When you consider within the above context the quarterback related variables that are most strongly correlated with winning -- QB rating, YPA, net YPA, and adjusted net YPA -- and consider that Wilson is head and shoulders above Tannehill with regard to them, I think it's fairly easy to conclude that Wilson is playing the quarterback position in its entirety far better than Tannehill right now.

I think this is where the two extra years as a college starter come into play. Huge advantage for Wilson.

 

[JERSEYFINFAN23]

Wilson plays with no fear, just plays hard and Aggressive.
the all out blitz, he took 3 steps and launched it 45 yards and hit the WR in stride. beautiful play!
Seattle is tough!

 

[FinfanInBuffalo]

again, the plan wasn't to throw all over the place in 2011, that became the plan b/c we couldn't run and mark was bringing us back in games every week after we couldn't run early. he set a franchise record for total TDs in 2011

Funny how you try to rewrite history, even your own. Here is a sequence between you and me from Jan 2012, just after the 2011 season:

nyjunc: he has plenty of flaws and needs to vastly improve upon this year.

me: or what? What do you think should happen if he doesn't improve? And by when?

nyjunc: if next year goes like this year I could see us exploring some options, that would be 2 years w/o improving and that would be a red flag. I don't expect that to happen but you never know.

From Nov 2011:

nyjunc: mark is playing poorly right now no doubt about it, he goes through stretches like this. The hope is he would mature and not go throught hese anymore but that hasn't happened.

me: As I warned you last year, if Sanchez doesn't improve, he'll be gone. IMO, he is done on the Jets, this year or next. He is not improving. He can only be hidden for so long. Once the surrounding cast is not as good and more is expected of him, Rex will lose faith.


You admitted that he did not improve in 2011. He was worse in 2012. You stated (mid way through his third year) that "he goes through stretches like this". Well when could those stretches possibly have happened? IN HIS FIRST TWO YEARS.


I'm not sure why you have such an agenda for Sanchez but occasionally you see the light.

Ryan isn't driving the bus for you guys, will you mind if you make the playoffs?

Of course he is. Is our running game even average? How about our pass blocking?